Northern

[GNERman]

and special trains for SELRAP - can't forget that...
also given stations new information boards and announcements
and reshiffled rolling stock to depots eg:
most 156's at newton heath
most 158's at Neville Hill
etc

 

[ukrob]

How about we compare like for like or would it spoil your argument?

Lets go through each of your points about XC one by one.

1. AXC has brought back HST's and referbished them to a high standard.
2. Diagramed HST's and doubled voyagers on services that hit Birmingham around the rush hour.

Do you propose Northern should have used HSTs? If not, your points are not valid. What stock which is spare should Northern be using?

3. Referbished the 170's again to a high standard.

Northerns fleet is being refreshed. It doesn't need a full refurbishment, and much of it will be replaced within the next five years. Cross Country are stuck with what they have got for a long time.

4. Introduced at seat service, yes i was a bit worried about it at first but having tried it out its really good. The trolley tends to get through the train rather quickly, especially on voyagers. Maybe two trolleys would be good on the HST's.

Northern needs at seat service because......? Does the trolley get through Voyagers because they are too short?

5***. Might be bringing WIFI to trains.

Might? Means nothing!

6. In my experience of travelling around 10 XC trips a month delays are reduced.

I'm sure people who travel with Northern to and from work every single day would say much the same. They run just under 2,500 services a day afterall.

7. Overcrowding reduced as a result of HST's and good diagram planning

Another HST fanboy argument. Since the December timetable change the diagramming and overcrowding seems far better on Northern too.

8. Only had to hire one HST for the summer saterday sevices

What has that got to do with anything?

9. Brought in a new timetable that seems to be working well

So did Northern for areas that needed it.

10. SOME services are speeded up a bit.

Same with Northern.

It strikes me that your whole argument about XC is that they use HSTs and Northern don't. If not, then you don't seem to know enough about Northern to pass comment on why XC is better. Not to mention that it is a ludicrous comparison to start with

 

[WillPS]

I don't really think it's fair to compare what each have done. Northern inherited a VERY higeldy pigeldy fleet of units, most 20 or so years old with no promise of any new trains nor enough resources to allow a full refurbishment and a huge number of services to run.

CrossCountry inherited a fleet all of which was less than 10 years old and on top of that a handful of freshly reengined and refurbished HST sets.

I think it's probably worth mentioning that since Northern started, they've extended services. The same certainly can not be said of Arriva with CrossCountry.

 

[adamp]

You have to take into account they are the countrys biggest train operator.
and what are xc ? certainly not that. they have all the posh, new trains excluding hst's, and northen have all the sh*t stock so personally there doing well with what theyve got. cant believe people are saying xc have done more than northern! all they have done is taken shops out of voyagers. obviously thats not literal so dont get all argumentative about that...
-Adam

 

[1D53]

Northern have/are Refurbished/refreshed 142's, 150's, 155's, 156's, 158's, 321's, have obtained extra 158 and 180's, run more trains than ever before, offer more capacity then previous franchises and performance figures are consistently up too. This is before you even consider the addition of Nottingham to the network and more trains/capacity over certain lines.

I do like the fact that lilloaf above has made 10 points, funnily 4 of them are about the same 5 HST's....... These same HST's which don't have working powerpoints in some cases, a broken reservation system and have galley/buffet areas with no power and in some cases running water. Would love to find these speeded up services too....

 

[Donny Dave]

Quiz time !

(This happened either late last year or early this year, can't remember exactly when.) Due to failures, or stock out of position, what units did AXC and FGW use for their services from Plymouth and Exeter?

Personally speaking, I avoid Northern (despite their good performance) around here, simply because of the pacers (which I hate).

Thankfully, we only have to put up with them for another 10 years (if that), as they are slated to be replaced (along with Sprinters) in the Yorks and Humber RUS for 2015-2019.

 

[37372]

Comparing AXC to Northern is an invalid argument anyway. Northern is basically a TOC for commuters and local travel, AXC is a long distance operator.
If you want to compare both companies, compare AXC to NXEC, Northern to London Midland or something...

 

[LilLoaf]

Ok some people have said why they like Northern, i will now pick them to pieces as what some have done with me like XC.

The whole "what units did XC use from Plymouth to Exeter (in one case Bristol). This is not unique to AXC and happened a lot in VXC days.

Yes AXC have brought in HST's but why carn't Northern. For example on the Carlisle -Leeds - which could then be extended to Nottingham.

As for Northern being the largest company in the UK, that up for debate depending if you mean by train fleet. I was talking about the area covered.

Trains. From what i seen (with the exception of the 158's, 150's 153's 155's and 321's) all Northern have done is spend i shudder to think how much money painting trains. The internal referbishment has taken place on the 158's 150's 153's 155's and 321's. Not on the pacers, 323's, 156's. The 158's didn't really need doing!

Northern DO need trolley service on the Leeds - Carlisle, York - Blackpool, Leeds via Bradford to Manchester, Manchester - Blackpool, Blackpool - Liverpool, Lancaster / Barrow - Carlisle, Carlisle - Newcastle, Middlesbourgh - Whitby.

Northern is mainly used by commuters and local travel. Erm Leeds - Blackpool, thats a canny commute.

XC has speeded some services. It used to be over an hour and a half from Manchester to Birmingham. xx.54 off man picc - Bns xx.30. xx.17 off man picc - bns xx.58. Now the quickest one is xx.04 due in bns xx.30. There are your speeded up services. Several east coast services are also speeded up, but not sure about the times off hand. Check the XX.30 of Birmingham heading North you'll find its quicker than the previous timetable.


I'm not saying i don't like Northern but AXC has done more in its time than Northern has. I hope both Northern and AXC continue to improve and i'm sure they will.

 

[ukrob]

This guy is hilarious

Ok some people have said why they like Northern, i will now pick them to pieces as what some have done with me like XC.

The whole "what units did XC use from Plymouth to Exeter (in one case Bristol). This is not unique to AXC and happened a lot in VXC days.

Yes AXC have brought in HST's but why carn't Northern. For example on the Carlisle -Leeds - which could then be extended to Nottingham.

I assume you are just taking the ****

As for Northern being the largest company in the UK, that up for debate depending if you mean by train fleet. I was talking about the area covered.

Northern is still bigger by about 30km if you want to measure it like that. Northern serves more stations, operates more stations, has a bigger fleet, has a larger route KM and a larger passenger KM, so I'm not really sure which bit of it is up for debate about XC being bigger?

Trains. From what i seen (with the exception of the 158's, 150's 153's 155's and 321's) all Northern have done is spend i shudder to think how much money painting trains. The internal referbishment has taken place on the 158's 150's 153's 155's and 321's. Not on the pacers, 323's, 156's. The 158's didn't really need doing!

Ahhhh, so we are basing it on what you have seen and not on actual facts? 142s, 150s and 156s are getting refreshes at the moment. Yes, the 142s, despite being withdrawn in the not to distant future. Any of XC's fleet due to be withdrawn and replaced in the next 5 - 10 years?

Northern DO need trolley service on the Leeds - Carlisle, York - Blackpool, Leeds via Bradford to Manchester, Manchester - Blackpool, Blackpool - Liverpool, Lancaster / Barrow - Carlisle, Carlisle - Newcastle, Middlesbourgh - Whitby.

Can you justify why any service 'needs' a trolley service? Some of those routes you suggest are just absurd. Manchester and Liverpool to Blackpool are both less than 90 minutes end to end!

Northern is mainly used by commuters and local travel. Erm Leeds - Blackpool, thats a canny commute.

Which bit of 'mainly' didn't you see?

XC has speeded some services. It used to be over an hour and a half from Manchester to Birmingham. xx.54 off man picc - Bns xx.30. xx.17 off man picc - bns xx.58. Now the quickest one is xx.04 due in bns xx.30. There are your speeded up services. Several east coast services are also speeded up, but not sure about the times off hand. Check the XX.30 of Birmingham heading North you'll find its quicker than the previous timetable.

Northern have speeded up some services too. So what?

I'm not saying i don't like Northern but AXC has done more in its time than Northern has. I hope both Northern and AXC continue to improve and i'm sure they will.

I hope not because you don't know enough about it to make that statement.

 

[1D53]

Yes AXC have brought in HST's but why carn't Northern. For example on the Carlisle -Leeds - which could then be extended to Nottingham.

XC were promised the last five available sets in their franchise agreement. There aint any more.

As for Northern being the largest company in the UK, that up for debate depending if you mean by train fleet. I was talking about the area covered.

The internal referbishment has taken place on the 158's 150's 153's 155's and 321's. Not on the pacers, 323's, 156's. The 158's didn't really need doing!

other than the 323's and 333's they are all being done. And the 158's did need doing so what a joke.

Northern DO need trolley service on the Leeds - Carlisle, York - Blackpool, Leeds via Bradford to Manchester, Manchester - Blackpool, Blackpool - Liverpool, Lancaster / Barrow - Carlisle, Carlisle - Newcastle, Middlesbourgh - Whitby.

Leeds - Carlisle has a trolley. The rest of the routes are either too short or don't have people travelling the full distance (other than York - Blackpool in summer)

XC has speeded some services. It used to be over an hour and a half from Manchester to Birmingham. xx.54 off man picc - Bns xx.30. xx.17 off man picc - bns xx.58. Now the quickest one is xx.04 due in bns xx.30.

At the expense of the passengers of Macclesfield, Stoke and Stafford and upto Stockport in some cases.

Its fine, Northern can do that if we want to. We'll run York - Blackpool quicker, we'll just cut out all the local stations between York and Leeds and we'll save an extra 10 minutes and skip New Pusey, Bradford and Halifax......

 

[Stonesourscotty]

The only trains not getting refurbs are 144/323/333 although 323's have had a few mods done. Northern are doing a Cracking job with what Resources they have and should get more notice as there attitude towards the northern Franchise should be rewarded with other franchises.

 

[GNERman]

northern are doing brilliant the 333's don't need refurb as they are in good nick anyway, the refurb on class 150 and 158 is pretty good, nice and comfortable...

 

[poshbakerloo]

I do think that the 323s need the seat re done. The padding seems to have worse a lot...
And the 142s need to be fixed up, it was yesterday that all (3) doors in the back coach had broken at Piccadilly so they had to be pushed open manually...

Other than that, I like Northern!

 

[whoshotjimmi]

Lilloaf - mate, you really need to have a think about everything you state is wrong with Northern AND the (deserved) derision that has enticed from other members of this forum. When you have mulled that over, if you still think Northern should hire in HST's to travel from Carlisle to Nottingham, I would love to hear why you think this is a good idea and how exactly it would improve the service Northern already provide.

The simple fact of the matter is this. Northern have channelled what resources they have, made their usage more efficient, improved performance and punctuality, increased services, increased capacity, improved their aging and maligned (142) stock immensly and hired in extra stock where needed, formed a good relationship with customers in which their views are, not only listened to, but acted upon and as a result have overseen a massive increase in Patronage and were awarded Public Transport Operator Of The Year 2007. Not only that, but they do not even have the catastrophic problems with the Class 180s that everyone else seems to have.

I cannot think of anything else that Northern can do to improve other than altering some timetables that are currently a bit weak in the Manchester area.

No one on this thread has had a go at AXC. They are also doing a very good job. Under the Virgin days, the delays they suffered were unbelievable. That has been improved no end. As has the quality of service. As has the ambience on board. But, honestly, to attempt to compare Northern in a negative way next to AXC? And with some of the wafer thin arguments you make? You are fighting a battle that you lost even before the very first letter of your very first comment.

As an aside, isn't it interesting that the interior of a train (class 333 specifically) is able to be kept to a very good standard despite being in service nearly 10 years when they are exclusively sent to the more affluent areas of the network?! Not trying to start a gang war or anything, just making a point....

 

[Chilled Phill]

Despite a number of complaints to Northern I have made in the past, I honestly will say they have done a brilliant job with the stock they have - bordering on an understatement I think.

As a passenger who primarily uses 323s (and the occasional 142), I will say that the only thing wrong with the EMU is the seating, the padding is way too thin for comfort. However, elsewhere, the unit is a very good piece of kit: quick off the mark, good capacity and is rather reliable (under alstom's maintenance, it's around 5,000-7,500 Miles per casualty (failure)) so overall I don't really have anything against Northern or their units. I'm sure the passengers less in the know, which I have argue for the case of Northern against, will disagree...

 

[andy13]

a very uncomfortable ride due to wheel layout, apart from that nice looking train.

 

[poshbakerloo]

I will say that the only thing wrong with the EMU is the seating, the padding is way too thin for comfort. However, elsewhere, the unit is a very good piece of kit: quick off the mark, good capacity and is rather reliable (under alstom's maintenance, it's around 5,000-7,500 Miles per casualty (failure)) so overall I don't really have anything against Northern or their units. I'm sure the passengers less in the know, which I have argue for the case of Northern against, will disagree...

The 323s are the best local EMUs there is...they run pretty fast aswell

 

[350401]

The 323s are the best local EMUs there is...they run pretty fast aswell

Would agree with that, the 323's are really good EMU's - 280-odd seats per train, so get seat even at rush hour usually, and have a good internal layout with minimal wasted space (unlike the huge amount of wastage in the 220s/221s!!). The only problem with the 323s with Northern that I have noticed is that recently, their reliability seems to be a bit of a problem - I think NT are down at least two 323's at the moment? Which given the fleet is already too small to meet all EMU demands, means that far too many services are being substituted by DMU's. The main culprit in my neck of the woods being the 07.22 Crewe-Manchester service, which forms the main all-stations rush-hour service (CEL 07.51), which is 2x142 (in theory). NT need to get the London Midlands 323's and all will be good in Northern-land.

Of course other improvements would be nice - for example restoring the timetables on the Chester-Alty-Manc line and the Crewe-Wilmslow-Manc lines back to the pre VHF frequency - i.e. re-instating cut services. The Mid-Cheshire line has an appalling infrequent service for such a well used line - hourly even at rush-hour since December. Stations such as Northwhich, Knutsford, Hale and Altrincham need a half-hourly service. Compare Wilmslow to Knutsford for example - WLM has 600k users per year and 5tph to Manchester, KNF has 290K users per year and 1tph to Manchester - improvements there would thus be welcome, and passenger numbers surely justify such a service. Inter-changeable through ticketing with the Metrolink would be welcome too (i.e. buy a return ticket for KNF-MAN and be able to use it via Stockport or via Metrolink, rather than having to choose which to use in both directions) - its been in the works for years but nothing concrete has emerged. Though NT have improved things to an extent - using Sprinters at rush-hour rather than Pacers for example.