Northern- Why Can't we vent anymore?

[Mephisto666]

Absolute joke of a 'TOC' and I find there is no thread anymore??

If anything they are one company that specifically do require an ongoing thread of grievances.

 

[BG2024]

Couln't help but notice that during the GSMR "chaos" this morning, Northern still had more cancelled services than any of the compnaies affected by the problems.

{insert bitter northerner rant about how the media only care about train cancellations when they impact London commuters}

 

[ainsworth74]

What purpose does such a thread serve? What is there to discuss? Experience so far is that it becomes a running sore whereby some people who are, not unreasonably, unhappy with the service, vent their grievances. Others provide an alternative view point or explanations for why things are not as easy to fix as it may appear. Some people increasingly get wound up and upset either because they're unhappy that the service remains poor for so long or because people are complaining about the service being poor and not accepting that things are complicated. The discussion spirals around in this general malaise of unhappiness with people getting more and more frustrated with each other until eventually someone snaps and goes to far and the whole discussion disintegrates and the thread ends up locked.

Throughout this whole process nothing new has actually been discussed. None of the problems are novel, none of the solutions are fresh and untried, nobody has learnt anything and nobody has changed their minds. Instead the atmosphere of the thread has been grim and occasionally a bit toxic.

We're not opposed to discussing Northern when there's something to discuss (see the recent discussion on Conductors voting on an agreement to try and move the Sunday working agreement forward). But just general poor performance? What is to be gained?

It's an open question, I'm interested in hearing what people feel they have to gain from a thread of the nature we've seen in recent months (years). But if the answer is just "so I can vent" whilst I'm massively sympathetic I'm not sure this Forum is the best venue for that.

{insert bitter northerner rant about how the media only care about train cancellations when they impact London commuters}

If we'd had similar threads about say South Eastern we'd have ended up in the same place we have with Northern. Speaking as a bitter Northerner there's no conspiracy here

 

[yorksrob]

I will say that round my neck of the woods (Hallam line) there seem to have been fewer cancellations than a few weeks ago when the last thread was shut ("Touch wood") so I suppose it's not all bad.

 

[Topological]

Seeing the Northern threads keeps it in the conscious.

I mistakenly thought that things must have got better last week and booked a trip to Horwich Parkway just before the United fans were to have reached Oxford Road. In the end all but 1 train was cancelled, the United fans did get there to catch that one and I had a 50 minute wait in the cold at Oxford Road.

Yes, I could have checked RTT, but with several trains on the route I planned I was not worrying too much if 1 was cancelled.

I understand fully that there is nothing that can be done about it. There are many reasons and I cannot think of a group of posters who like all the solutions. However, limiting the discussion of experiences on Northern does not solve the issue either.

It is also an important element of the current nationalisation debate to say how poor Northern is. Not polluting threads on nationalisation with Northern stories makes sense. People can be directed to how long the Northern venting thread is as evidence.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

It's an open question, I'm interested in hearing what people feel they have to gain from a thread of the nature we've seen in recent months (years). But if the answer is just "so I can vent" whilst I'm massively sympathetic I'm not sure this Forum is the best venue for that.

Quite. Facebook is surely the place for the non-stop moan fest.

 

[Wolfie]

Seeing the Northern threads keeps it in the conscious.

I mistakenly thought that things must have got better last week and booked a trip to Horwich Parkway just before the United fans were to have reached Oxford Road. In the end all but 1 train was cancelled, the United fans did get there to catch that one and I had a 50 minute wait in the cold at Oxford Road.

Yes, I could have checked RTT, but with several trains on the route I planned I was not worrying too much if 1 was cancelled.

I understand fully that there is nothing that can be done about it. There are many reasons and I cannot think of a group of posters who like all the solutions. However, limiting the discussion of experiences on Northern does not solve the issue either.

It is also an important element of the current nationalisation debate to say how poor Northern is. Not polluting threads on nationalisation with Northern stories makes sense. People can be directed to how long the Northern venting thread is as evidence.

Re your last para for Northern read Southeastern. The truth is that OLR is no panacea.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Dec 2024 ==

Quite. Facebook is surely the place for the non-stop moan fest.

.... or X.....

 

[Iskra]

As this poor performance is over multiple TOC’s currently, or at certain peak times; would it not be sensible to have a temporary easing of ticket restrictions to help people complete their journeys and restore a bit of goodwill and faith?

 

[Wolfie]

As this poor performance is over multiple TOC’s currently, or at certain peak times; would it not be sensible to have a temporary easing of ticket restrictions to help people complete their journeys and restore a bit of goodwill and faith?

The problem with that is that the better managed TOCs and their customers are then screwed over too. It's basically a license to buy the cheapest ticket.....

 

[Topological]

As this poor performance is over multiple TOC’s currently, or at certain peak times; would it not be sensible to have a temporary easing of ticket restrictions to help people complete their journeys and restore a bit of goodwill and faith?

The challenge in the case of Northern is that Northern offer some very good advance fares.

My take is that people buying Northern advances do so knowing that IF the train runs they do need to catch that particular Northern service. I do not think we would see too many buying Northern advances with a view to using Avanti from Manchester to Crewe (say).

 

[yorksrob]

The challenge for Northern is that a lot of the time, some of their lines are very good.

 

[Moonshot]

The challenge for Northern is that a lot of the time, some of their lines are very good.

Which doesn't hide the fact that the overall service has deteriorated over the last few years. As an insider , it's not difficult to see why either.

 

[Iskra]

The problem with that is that the better managed TOCs and their customers are then screwed over too. It's basically a license to buy the cheapest ticket.....

We’re moving away from such thinking though as we progress towards nationalisation. A railway passenger will be a railway passenger, without such tribalism based on the colour of trains. What does it matter if the TOC’s are both OLR for example? Both win if people trust the railway to get them from A to B and not use the car.

More pragmatically; it could be done on a day by day or route by route basis in the event of disruption- a more liberal and widely enacted version of what already happens. Common sense you could call it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Dec 2024 ==

The challenge in the case of Northern is that Northern offer some very good advance fares.

My take is that people buying Northern advances do so knowing that IF the train runs they do need to catch that particular Northern service. I do not think we would see too many buying Northern advances with a view to using Avanti from Manchester to Crewe (say).

See my above response ^

 

[Wolfie]

We’re moving away from such thinking though as we progress towards nationalisation. A railway passenger will be a railway passenger, without such tribalism based on the colour of trains. What does it matter if the TOC’s are both OLR for example? Both win if people trust the railway to get them from A to B and not use the car.

More pragmatically; it could be done on a day by day or route by route basis in the event of disruption- a more liberal and widely enacted version of what already happens. Common sense you could call it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Dec 2024 ==


See my above response ^

While l agree with your first paragraph in principle what happens when as a consequence they withdraw the cheaper tickets? That's a logical consequence..... A single company doesn't need to compete on price.

 

[yorksrob]

Which doesn't hide the fact that the overall service has deteriorated over the last few years. As an insider , it's not difficult to see why either.

Yes, there are some services that are consistently poor.

 

[Iskra]

While l agree with your first paragraph in principle what happens when as a consequence they withdraw the cheaper tickets? That's a logical consequence..... A single company doesn't need to compete on price.

Well, that’s a quiet inevitability of nationalisation; the abolition of competition beyond a few more lucrative routes is only going to send prices one way where they are currently reasonable. If the resulting railway is reliable and has adequate capacity, its a price some may be happy with, others may not.

 

[Wolfie]

Well, that’s a quiet inevitability of nationalisation; the abolition of competition beyond a few more lucrative routes is only going to send prices one way where they are currently reasonable. If the resulting railway is reliable and has adequate capacity, its a price some may be happy with, others may not.

I absolutely agree but not something that the politicians are exactly broadcasting....

 

[Howardh]

Notice last night we were back to bustitutions for both trains (Manchester - Bolton) after 11pm. Whenever evening services are cut, those two seem to be first in line - I've written on here before it simply stops you having a night out in town - and if hundreds felt the same way it's hitting the night-time economy. When can I expect a full daily service with no late night cancellations?

 

[Topological]

I absolutely agree but not something that the politicians are exactly broadcasting....

Its the reverse of the fact that the privatised railway needs subsidy really.

The day the politicians tell the truth will be a good day, the day they give a complete picture...

It would just be good to have a bit more from Burnham, even if it was just to say there should be a BeeRail (a convenient acronym there) to take over Manchester from Northern.

 

[AverageJoe]

Northern run a heck of a lot of trains, so when there is a nationwide issue like with the gsm-r then it doesn’t surprise me that there is a bigger impact felt.

 

[Lampshade]

Northern were offensively awful yesterday on the Blackpool route, often 2-3 trainloads wedged into 4 cars with everyone being patronisingly told "move down inside the carriage please".

 

[gshock]

Good old Northern. Last TOC signalled out of the gate at stations EVERYWHERE (held for every other more prestigious TOC you could imagine.. even trams at Rotherham) and then flamed by the public for being late due to 'bigger TOC' signaller priority.

Heads you win, tails I lose.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

In terms of performance yes, Northern are an absolute shambles.

But the positives are that Northern have a vast network with some of the most scenic lines in Britain and are very generous with their regular £10 day rovers as well as their complimentary tickets when things go wrong. Now if only they could sort out their staffing and short forming issues ....

 

[43066]

The answer to the thread title is probably because “general ranting” threads serve no purpose, and often generate bad feeling.

I used Northern from Leeds to Ilkley and back a few days ago, and I must say I was thoroughly impressed with the service.

If we'd had similar threads about say South Eastern we'd have ended up in the same place we have with Northern. Speaking as a bitter Northerner there's no conspiracy here

Haha there is that. As a regular user SE turn in a consistently good service, to be fair, especially given the size and complexity of their network. Albeit they’re not subject to the same “issues” as Northern.

 

[D6130]

I used Northern from Leeds to Ilkley and back a few days ago, and I must say I was thoroughly impressed with the service.

That's Northern (East)....which - while not by any means perfect - has far fewer problems than Northern (West), which is still lumbered with ex-BR conditions of service. The East area crews have Sundays within the working week and fully-pensionable pay. Their colleagues in the West don't....and have consistently voted against adopting such conditions.

 

[skyhigh]

The East area crews have Sundays within the working week and fully-pensionable pay.

Drivers do. Guards have committed Sunday work, which isn't pensionable.

 

[Southern Beau]

My father noted that his Sunday service (Blackpool South to Preston) is once again cancelled tomorrow. He recalls this has happened for the last 4 weeks at least for all services

The rail replacement buses is unreliable as often seems to “miss” his station!

Will be interesting to see if the emergency Northern Sunday timetable starting next weekend will be effective?
Either his service will be totally scrapped or moved from “every hour” to “every 2 hours”

 

[modernrail]

My perspective would be that wherever a TOC is regularly cancelling trains it is very reasonable for their to be an open discussion about what is going on and what should be done.

For one, it is useful as a form of transparency and accountability as people may be inspired to lobby politicians etc as they can see from here there are patterns, not just what is going on on a particular day on their line.

I have also used threads on here when stuck because of northern, or genuinely confused by their increasingly bizarre and unhelpful excuse making - which then masks the right solution to get through the mess.

I have also used northern threads on here to pick up on increased deterioration of the service so I can make a different choice. As my folks live in Southport, one the stars of the ‘how to run a rubbish service’ northern show - that has helped me avoid a good few strandings. For instance, knowing that there is a combination of poor staffing and technical failure of the units means I route via Liverpool on Sundays.

People don’t need to look at a particular thread. Not having one for me helps normalise something which is absolutely not acceptable. It should not be normal for a TOC to be regularly cancelling loads of trains. It should always be fought against as that sort of service genuinely screws with people’s day to day lives.

If there is to be a ‘keep to the topic’ warning - perhaps it is, what is the lack of performance on northern at the moment, what are the likely reasons and possible solutions’.

I get that one of the big problems is the working arrangements on Sundays on the Western side. That this has been going on for half a lifetime doesn’t make the situation any less ridiculous or in need of a solution.

 

[Howardh]

The last train from Victoria to Bolton last night - cancelled; and the last train from Piccadilly/Oxford Road also cancelled. Beyond a joke; returning to Bolton has the alternative of the local buses, but what about those returning to Chorley and beyond? Must cost Northern more in taxi fares than scrapping the last train which happens oh too frequently and permanently running bustitutions?

 

[43066]

The East area crews have Sundays within the working week and fully-pensionable pay. Their colleagues in the West don't....and have consistently voted against adopting such conditions.

The post after yours disproves the suggestion that traincrew on the west always vote against Sundays being brought into the week!

The interim deal they’ve just rejected was for committed Sundays, not Sundays in the week.