Northern Weekend Trains between Clitheroe and Hellifield

[Mcr Warrior]

How often has the Clitheroe- Hellifield SuO service run / not run (when it should/might have) in 2021 to date?

 

[30907]

Wasn't there some services in a pre Covid world which terminated at Hellifield on a Sunday during the winter months?

Yes, for several years, returning to Preston, so giving the line 2tpw(!). Resumes 19/9 this year.

 

[Roger B]

Advance info the Dalesrail is again cancelled Sunday 11/7/21 as i assume the same reason as last week.

Thanks Hardcastle. Has this been announced by Northern - it would be great if you could provide a link to the source, please. I was intending to take it to Carlisle this Sunday. I see it's still showing un RTT - whereas last Sunday's didn't show at all in RTT.

 

[Kite159]

Thanks Hardcastle. Has this been announced by Northern - it would be great if you could provide a link to the source, please. I was intending to take it to Carlisle this Sunday. I see it's still showing un RTT - whereas last Sunday's didn't show at all in RTT.

Details in the below link:

Check before you travel for services 11 July 2021 | Northern

Check before you travel – Sunday 11th July Customers are advised to check before they travel this Sunday (11th July). We are expecting disruption to some Northern services due to train crew being unavailable. This is due to a number of front-line staff either testing positive f…

www.northernrailway.co.uk

 

[Roger B]

Details in the below link:

Check before you travel for services 11 July 2021 | Northern

Check before you travel – Sunday 11th July Customers are advised to check before they travel this Sunday (11th July). We are expecting disruption to some Northern services due to train crew being unavailable. This is due to a number of front-line staff either testing positive f…

www.northernrailway.co.uk

Many thanks Kite159

 

[HSP 2]

There's no signalled move back into the Up platform from either the Up Main or the Up Branch (it'd require the driver to change ends three times in total if it was a legitimate shunt, but that's not necessarily a problem in itself).

As above, there's no signalled move back into the Up platform.

As all of the movements would be in station limits and it's not a passenger train (ECS) it can (or could be) flagged back onto the up platform by the signalman. I've just seen a very bad photo of the Hellifield signal box diagram and it looks to show a double shunting peg that would control this move.
p817524523-3.jpg (580×236) (ontrackimages.org.uk)

 

[Llandudno]

Should the DalesRail be scrapped altogether if Northern are incapable of resourcing it. Northern would be better concentrating on trying to run a full service on their 7 day a week routes.

I wonder if any open access/charter operators would be interested in operating the Dales Rail service, if the current Dales Rail service is subsidised could this subsidy not be offered to a different operator?

 

[Tomnick]

As all of the movements would be in station limits and it's not a passenger train (ECS) it can (or could be) flagged back onto the up platform by the signalman. I've just seen a very bad photo of the Hellifield signal box diagram and it looks to show a double shunting peg that would control this move.
p817524523-3.jpg (580×236) (ontrackimages.org.uk)

The signalman couldn't be certain that the points were fitting up correctly if they're mechanical points with mechanical detection. The pair of dollies presumably both read across to the Down side, one to the Main and the other to the Goods.

 

[Andy Pacer]

How often has the Clitheroe- Hellifield SuO service run / not run (when it should/might have) in 2021 to date?

See post #2

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I keep a check on the Dalesrail every Sunday it ran May 16th 23rd & June 6th last week 13th June it was cancelled as you say May 30th it ran only part of the route due to engineering work. I did note that the Dalesbus twitter feed anounced on Saturday that it was not running the following day ie the 13th so my advise is to keep a eye on there if you have twitter.

How often has the Clitheroe- Hellifield SuO service run / not run (when it should/might have) in 2021 to date?

See post #2

Thanks. Noted that @Hardcastle 's helpful post #2 was dated 16th June 2021, so just to summarise this info, and others' subsequently, is this what's happened so far this year...

Nothing scheduled before Sunday 16th May 2021, then the 0950 ran between Clitheroe and Hellifield (and onward to Carlisle presumably) on 16th May = Yes, on 23rd May = Yes, on 30th May = Partway (to where?), on 6th June = Yes, on 13th June = Cancelled (a later bus replacement ran, partway, presumably just between Clitheroe and Hellifield), on 20th June = ???, on 27th June = ???, on 4th July = Cancelled and on 11th July (tomorrow) = Cancelled?

Is that understanding correct?

 

[Andy Pacer]

Thanks. Noted that @Hardcastle 's helpful post #2 was dated 16th June 2021, so just to summarise this info, and others' subsequently, is this what's happened so far this year...

Nothing scheduled before Sunday 16th May 2021, then the 0950 ran between Clitheroe and Hellifield (and onward to Carlisle presumably) on 16th May = Yes, on 23rd May = Yes, on 30th May = Partway (to where?), on 6th June = Yes, on 13th June = Cancelled (a later bus replacement ran, partway, presumably just between Clitheroe and Hellifield), on 20th June = ???, on 27th June = ???, on 4th July = Cancelled and on 11th July (tomorrow) = Cancelled?

Is that understanding correct?

I was a bit disappointed at tomorrow's being cancelled as my All Line Rover itinerary did tie it in. Never mind.

 

[HSP 2]

The signalman couldn't be certain that the points were fitting up correctly if they're mechanical points with mechanical detection. The pair of dollies presumably both read across to the Down side, one to the Main and the other to the Goods.

looking at the diagram I can not see a direct connection from the up main to the down goods loop. Back to the down main yes as I would expect. So the second would be for the up platform.
Without going to deep in to S and T work, if a point is controlled by a signal box but does not have a FPL it will have what is called a detector fixed at the end of the tye bar (I have forgot its true name) that the link to the signal has to pass through, if the point is between 1/8" and 3/16" open the signal can not be pulled off so the point has to be reset to reseat it to the road that is required.

 

[Tomnick]

looking at the diagram I can not see a direct connection from the up main to the down goods loop. Back to the down main yes as I would expect. So the second would be for the up platform.
Without going to deep in to S and T work, if a point is controlled by a signal box but does not have a FPL it will have what is called a detector fixed at the end of the tye bar (I have forgot its true name) that the link to the signal has to pass through, if the point is between 1/8" and 3/16" open the signal can not be pulled off so the point has to be reset to reseat it to the road that is required.

I've quickly annotated a cropped copy of the photo that you linked to earlier to show the route to the Down Goods...



Mechanical detection is all well and good but, of course, useless if there's no signal that can be cleared for the move!

(normally one detector slide attached to each switch tip, and another driven laterally by a crank in the rod that drives the FPL if there is one - you can have mechanical detection on points with FPLs!)

 

[Roger B]

I was a bit disappointed at tomorrow's being cancelled as my All Line Rover itinerary did tie it in. Never mind.

Me too - I'd been planning to be on it today. Think I'll try again later in the summer.

 

[30907]

I've quickly annotated a cropped copy of the photo that you linked to earlier to show the route to the Down Goods...

View attachment 99528

Mechanical detection is all well and good but, of course, useless if there's no signal that can be cleared for the move!

(normally one detector slide attached to each switch tip, and another driven laterally by a crank in the rod that drives the FPL if there is one - you can have mechanical detection on points with FPLs!)

The signalman couldn't be certain that the points were fitting up correctly if they're mechanical points with mechanical detection. The pair of dollies presumably both read across to the Down side, one to the Main and the other to the Goods.

This image is rather clearer: https://scrca.foscl.org.uk/gallery/scrca-image-2311902012-07-20akhellifield-sj-sb-interior-panel-2

I see single disc 44 reading via points 28 Up Main to Down Main (or Loop?) and single disc 56 Up Branch via points 49 to Down Loop; 56 is also the subsidiary Down Branch to Down Loop, so the two signals are selected by points 49. (I presume disc 56 can't read Up Branch to Down Main therefore.)

(At one time one disc - on some economically-minded railways - could cover multiple routes, but I think that is no longer best practice, and hasn't been for decades!)

 

[HSP 2]

This image is rather clearer: https://scrca.foscl.org.uk/gallery/scrca-image-2311902012-07-20akhellifield-sj-sb-interior-panel-2

I see single disc 44 reading via points 28 Up Main to Down Main (or Loop?) and single disc 56 Up Branch via points 49 to Down Loop; 56 is also the subsidiary Down Branch to Down Loop, so the two signals are selected by points 49. (I presume disc 56 can't read Up Branch to Down Main therefore.)

(At one time one disc - on some economically-minded railways - could cover multiple routes, but I think that is no longer best practice, and hasn't been for decades!)

Thank for the clearer photo of the box diagram, I did think the signal 44 was a double due to the first photo. So for a ECS move to take place from the down platform to the up platform it would be under the signalmans control using flags for one part of it.
Must get out and see if I can have a word with the signalman next time I'm over that way.

 

[Hardcastle]

Dalesrail cancelled 8/8/21 no available drivers.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Nothing scheduled before Sunday 16th May 2021, then the 0950 ran between Clitheroe and Hellifield (and onward to Carlisle presumably) on 16th May = Yes, on 23rd May = Yes, on 30th May = Partway (to where?), on 6th June = Yes, on 13th June = Cancelled (a later bus replacement ran, partway, presumably just between Clitheroe and Hellifield), on 20th June = ???, on 27th June = ???, on 4th July = Cancelled and on 11th July (tomorrow) = Cancelled?

Dalesrail cancelled 8/8/21 no available drivers.

Can anyone fill in the gaps, also did anything run on Sundays 20th June / 27th June / 18th July / 25th July and 1st August?

 

[voyagerdude220]

Can anyone fill in the gaps, also did anything run on Sundays 20th June / 27th June / 18th July / 25th July and 1st August?

Definitely ran on 1st August, was a 3-car 158. Cancelled on 25th July.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Ballpark just over 50% reliability rate? Seven cancellations over past 15 Sundays if you input the relevant details into raildar!

(0950 SuO Clitheroe-> Hellifield)

Train delay and cancellation information for the UK

See how your train has performed over the last 3 months. Useful summary reports, ideal for delay repay claims.

raildar.co.uk

 

[Llandudno]

Surely it would be better cancelling the whole thing until next summer.

It’s not fair on CUSTOMERS planning days out, group walks and the like to have the route cancelled at such short notice 50% of the time.

 

[D6130]

Surely it would be better cancelling the whole thing until next summer.

I think that there could be legal consequences of a planned withdrawal of the service for a period of several months. As this is the only passenger service currently using the Clitheroe-Hellifield section it constitutes a weekly 'parliamentary' service....much like the Fridays Only Stockport-Stalybridge train. I suspect that a planned withdrawal for a period of more than a week would have to be accompanied by a formal parliamentary proposal for the permanent withdrawal of passenger services. Perhaps someone with a better knowledge of the relevant statutary procedures could confirm or deny?

EDIT: I may, of course, be writing complete b*****ks as the service doesn't run in the winter months anyway, but I would be interested to know what the legal stipulations are for the minimum level and periodicity of services over a passenger line.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is a winter version, the Lancashire Rambler to Hellifield, but there wasn't for years. Also the Halton Curve parly was summer only.

 

[janb]

There is a winter version, the Lancashire Rambler to Hellifield, but there wasn't for years. Also the Halton Curve parly was summer only.

Close. Ribble Valley Rambler.

 

[IanXC]

EDIT: I may, of course, be writing complete b*****ks as the service doesn't run in the winter months anyway, but I would be interested to know what the legal stipulations are for the minimum level and periodicity of services over a passenger line.

In the winter it runs, but only as far as Hellifield.

 

[Sm5]

Pity LSL with its HST isnt available on Sundays to do it.

(Edit: it is now available on sundays as it’s own sunday turn has been cancelled)…. Solution ?

 

[Hardcastle]

Dalesrail is expected to operate. 22/08/21.

 

[Roger B]

Dalesrail is expected to operate. 22/08/21.

Thanks Hardcastle. Great that it's running. Pity that I've other commitments on Sunday! Maybe next time ....

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Aug 2021 ==

I've just seen the following in the latest issue of the Branch Line Society's latest newsletter (BLN 1383): The Strategic Outline Business Case (SOBC) to extend the Manchester to Clitheroe service to Hellifield or Garsdale concludes that services could be delivered with little or no additional infrastructure and could potentially start at the May 2023 timetable change. Does anyone have any further info concerning this? Thanks

 

[Roger B]

No services today

 

[Hardcastle]

It did not operate last Sunday which was to be the final dalesrail for this year.