Northern vs TfGM - ticket validity rules

[MetroPleb]

Hello all,

I hope someone may be able to shed further light on this one, before I end up having to contact / complain to either of the above organisations.

I'm referring to this text, found on the TfGM website:

A rail season ticket between two stations in Greater Manchester allows you to travel by train anywhere in Greater Manchester at weekends and public holidays.

http://www.tfgm.com/journey_planning/Tickets/Pages/tickets_rail.aspx

As you may have guessed from the post being in this forum, I tried to travel under this rule on Good Friday, and was accused by Northern staff of... (well, hard to describe) ... something in between fare evasion and stupidity. Resulting a quick lengthy argument.

Whilst I was not penalised or reported this time, I was told quite directly that I was lucky to get off, they were doing me a favour, and if I get caught again I will be in trouble.

So my main concern is how to proceed in the future, because I will want to do this again. However in Northern's eyes, I have been warned about travelling without a valid ticket, and therefore a repeat, particularly if it involves one of the same staff, may result in delays / being reported / Northern's "£80 scheme" ... or worse

I don't believe I have done anything wrong, but the incident has left me stressed out and with pretty negative feelings about rail travel. Suddenly a bus pass is looking more tolerable!

Some of the things I have 'learned' (ahem) from the argument, were:
- "The rule does not exist, you are making it up"
On showing a printout of the TfGM web page:
- "That is meaningless"
On saying the text came from a web page:
- "Anything found online is invalid, it doesn't apply"
On discussing TfGM rules:
- "TfGM are nothing to do with railways"
- "TfGM tickets are only to do with buses"
On travelling to Stockport from Manchester:
- "Stockport is not in Greater Manchester, it is Cheshire"
- "Stockport is definitely not in the GM rail ticketing area"

 

[pdsalford]

Couldn't you get something from Northern Rail clarifying their stance. Some of their staff seem to make stuff up as the go along.

 

[Nym]

I'm going to guess at no, since Northern seem to be making it up as they go along at the top level as well.

 

[MetroPleb]

Thanks to one of our honourable friends on here, Northern have now confirmed this on Twitter.

So that is the first hurdle overcome - at least there is no hidden dispute with TfGM. At least I now have a second printout confirming the rule from a different source.

However given the "Online doesn't count" attitude I had from the guards, I'm still minded to write using 'snail mail' to Northern, then hopefully I could get something back on paper to show.

I've also realised <sigh> that I'm going to have to carry a paper TfGM rail map around as well. I'm still reeling from the "DON'T YOU GET IT - STOCKPORT IS *NOT* IN GREATER MANCHESTER!!!" lecture, which is the point where I gave up any attempt at rational debate. hock:

 

[LowLevel]

I have to admit, I'm a guard who works (very limited) local services in the GMPTE area for a TOC who isn't Northern, and I had no idea this was the case - you learn something every day!

 

[Starmill]

Wow... I Didn't know that was the case o.O !

Being told Stockport is in Cheshire though? They need sacking! If somebody had said "don't you get it" to me followed by such a ridiculous claim as TfGM tickets not being valid at Stockport I don't know what I might have done...

 

[MetroPleb]

I have to admit, I'm a guard who works (very limited) local services in the GMPTE area for a TOC who isn't Northern, and I had no idea this was the case - you learn something every day!

Hi - yes I thought this might be the case - I don't have any problem with staff not knowing every single rule, particularly is they are from outside the area. Hence the value of the printed documentation to verify the rule.

I might have expected, perhaps, having to explain to G4S (as-was) contractors, EMT or XC (for example) staff from outside the area, or at worst case one rogue Northern guard.

I'm just surprised that it was actually two Northern guards, confirming each others statements, even after the printout and explanation.

Have to say, I have always found rail staff in this part of the world to be an very amiable bunch, compared to some of the stories I read on here from other parts of the country. Hence the shock.

 

[island]

Is Good Friday a public holiday or a bank holiday? There is some arcane difference that I don't understand very well but may be relevant here.

 

[radamfi]

Did you report the guard? If you did, at least he could be reminded of the rules.

I don't think there was much excuse for not knowing that rule as even I knew that, despite living in Sussex.

The craziest thing is refusing to believe you when presented with proof. That, IMO, together with the aggressive nature of the guard's response, is worthy of disciplinary action.

 

[LowLevel]

Well I'm glad you raised it, I'm going to feed it back to our retail trainers as they're very keen on keeping up to date and have a special little booklet they made on Manchester and Liverpool fares as they're basically a nightmare for guards who really don't spend that much time up there. Mercifully the stations in the TFGM area that we call at all have staffed ticket offices at the time of day we call there so it's mostly just checking rather than selling.

The key thing is though is that it doesn't *sound* unreasonable, it's the kind of thing a PTE (or whatever they're called now) would do so unless you're certain of yourself, I'd personally always give the customer the benefit of the doubt (but that said I do that with most things including routing as I simply don't have time to pore through the routing guide).

 

[Ediswan]

A rail season ticket between two stations in Greater Manchester allows you to travel by train anywhere in Greater Manchester at weekends and public holidays.

Price of the cheapest qualifying weekly season ticket ?

 

[MetroPleb]

Is Good Friday a public holiday or a bank holiday? There is some arcane difference that I don't understand very well but may be relevant here.

https://www.gov.uk/bank-holidays

Yes, a valid question that someone might query.

But the debate didn't even get that far.

 

[Starmill]

Price of the cheapest qualifying weekly season ticket ?

2963 DEANSGATE G-MEX DGT

to

0451 MANCHESTER CTLZ MCZ

would be a good start as it's valid on trams in the City Centre too :P

£8.40 a week

 

[GaryMcEwan]

If you are going to complain, bypass Customer Services and email directly to the CEO. That's the best way to get results and correct answers without Customer Services giving you a lot of spin and politician speak...

 

[MetroPleb]

Did you report the guard? If you did, at least he could be reminded of the rules.

I don't think there was much excuse for not knowing that rule as even I knew that, despite living in Sussex.

The craziest thing is refusing to believe you when presented with proof. That, IMO, together with the aggressive nature of the guard's response, is worthy of disciplinary action.

I wouldn't say there was any aggression. Guard 1 was lecturing, perhaps like a teacher punishing a naughty schoolboy. He called me "rude", because I wouldn't agree with his statements, even though I was calm, factual, and didn't insult them. Guard 2 was sarcastic, seemingly amused at an evader's attempts to justify the ticket.

 

[34D]

Thanks to one of our honourable friends on here, Northern have now confirmed this on Twitter.

Grudgingly I see https://mobile.twitter.com/northernrailorg/status/458210288597475328

 

[maniacmartin]

I hadn't heard of such a rule before either.

I would definitely get it in writing on Northern letter-headed paper, or see if a Northern ticket clerk can stamp your online printout with a station stamp if you can.

Note however, that even on letterheaded paper from the operator concerned was not enough for some staff on London Overground and London Underground, who claimed their customer services depts were wrong regarding a ticket I have. One gateline assistant even told me TfL's Fares Manager is wrong regarding the validity :/ Luckily, Northern are usually better in this regard.

 

[455driver]

If you are going to complain, bypass Customer Services and email directly to the CEO. That's the best way to get results and correct answers without Customer Services giving you a lot of spin and politician speak...

Yeah because the CEO has got nothing better to do with his time than open his own letters and deal with miniscule (in the scheme of things) complaints has he! :roll:

The letter will be opened by his secretary and sent straight to the correct department,the CEO wont even see it.
All this 'advice' to send it to the CEO or Managing Director is a complete waste of time! etc

 

[bb21]

If you are going to complain, bypass Customer Services and email directly to the CEO. That's the best way to get results and correct answers without Customer Services giving you a lot of spin and politician speak...

No, it is not.

It is the best way to get some "goodwill" payment and then for the matter to be swept under the carpet.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If you are going to complain, bypass Customer Services and email directly to the CEO. That's the best way to get results and correct answers without Customer Services giving you a lot of spin and politician speak...

No, it is not.

It is the best way to get some "goodwill" payment and then for the matter to be swept under the carpet.

 

[island]

Yeah because the CEO has got nothing better to do with his time than open his own letters and deal with miniscule (in the scheme of things) complaints has he! :roll:

The letter will be opened by his secretary and sent straight to the correct department,the CEO wont even see it.
All this 'advice' to send it to the CEO or Managing Director is a complete waste of time! etc

Not to mention an expression that one is so arrogant as to believe one's issues are too important to be dealt with by normal customer services.

 

[yorkie]

What happens at some TOCs is a letter to the CEO goes to the complex case team, who then ask the CEO's PA to check the letter before it gets sent.

So yes, it's unlikely that the CEO will see it, but it could 'fast track' a complaint.

 

[Starmill]

No, it is not.

It is the best way to get some "goodwill" payment and then for the matter to be swept under the carpet.

With some TOCs I get the feeling that this is the only response they are capable of providing no matter what one does.

 

[Andrewlong]

https://www.gov.uk/bank-holidays

Yes, a valid question that someone might query.

But the debate didn't even get that far.

Good Friday is a Bank Holiday. Would a one-off holiday be considered to be a public holiday such as a royal wedding?

 

[tony_mac]

For all practical purposes, "bank holiday" and "public holiday" mean exactly the same thing.

(Good Friday and Christmas Day are public holidays. They were already considered as holidays before the other bank holidays were added, so there was no need to specifically legislate for them.

In fact, Bank holidays are defined with reference to the public holidays. )

No person shall be compellable to make any payment or to do any act on a bank holiday under this Act which he would not be compellable to make or do on Christmas Day or Good Friday;

 

[Hadders]

Occasionally an additional bank holiday will be declared. In these circumstances it is a bank holiday (as an Act of Parliament is required) and bank holiday ticketing rules should apply. IIRC we have had additional bank holidays in:

1981 - Wedding of Charles and Diana
1995 - 50th Anniversary of VE Day
1999 - Millennium Eve
2002 - Golden Jubilee
2011 - Wedding of William and Kate
2012 - Diamond Jubilee

There may be others I've forgotten.

 

[MetroPleb]

Grudgingly I see https://mobile.twitter.com/northernrailorg/status/458210288597475328

The twitter comments are interesting actually... two parallel conversations, and the answer to both from Northern was "Traincard only" ... until pushed into changing that.

Guard 1 in my case made a reference to a Traincard, which he confidently, if incorrectly, stated was the only GM ticket valid to Stockport.. "just like for New Mills".

(Now New Mills (Central and Newtown, plus Disley) are what you might call "disputed territory", in that they have some GM ticket validity but not all, and definitely aren't in the GM met county. So you might expect confusion there. But this guard must have thought that Stockport was somehow in the same borough as New Mills??)

Irrespective of that, it seems that the "Traincard only" belief may be widespread.

Is there anyone else from Northern on here with any insight on that?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

... They need sacking!

Did you report the guard? If you did, at least he could be reminded of the rules.

... worthy of disciplinary action.

No, it is not.

It is the best way to get some "goodwill" payment and then for the matter to be swept under the carpet.

Not to mention an expression that one is so arrogant as to believe one's issues are too important to be dealt with by normal customer services.

Just to state my position on all this - I consider myself a "Friend" of the railways, and am normally happy with Northern. I'm not looking for 'Compo' or to get anyone fired.

Just basically want to travel without hassle.

Also, want to be able to promote rail travel to others... and this is a good example - "hey everyone, did you know your season ticket also allows you to go anywhere at the weekend" is a nice message.... but not if you think you have just left a friend opened to penalties or being accused.

So if I pursue this it will be on that basis - 'please get your rules straight, and perhaps guards should be a little more open to discussion before condemning a customer....'

 

[Starmill]

In the Stockport case I would have asked him or her what they thought about travel to Cheadle Hulme on a GM Rail Ranger, or if they have ever seen this sign at Bramhall:

It says GMPTE on it.

 

[MetroPleb]

In the Stockport case I would have asked him or her what they thought about travel to Cheadle Hulme on a GM Rail Ranger, or if they have ever seen this sign at Bramhall:

It says GMPTE on it.

Indeed... also see Glossop, Hadfield and Dinting - which are in Derbyshire, but within TfGM Ticketing.. and last time I checked they have the logo.

Although Appley Bridge station is a little disturbing, because last time I went there on a GM Rail Ranger, it only had Lancashire logos on it. Its not in GM county, but is in GM ticketing. Had a little panic there and was trying to find a GM rail map on my phone before the guard came..... but it was OK.

Plus Glazebrook - in Warrington borough, but within GM ticketing, and not sure what logo it has.

 

[Starmill]

Indeed... also see Glossop, Hadfield and Dinting - which are in Derbyshire, but within TfGM Ticketing.. and last time I checked they have the logo.

Although Appley Bridge station is a little disturbing, because last time I went there on a GM Rail Ranger, it only had Lancashire logos on it. Its not in GM county, but is in GM ticketing. Had a little panic there and was trying to find a GM rail map on my phone before the guard came..... but it was OK.

Plus Glazebrook - in Warrington borough, but within GM ticketing, and not sure what logo it has.

I think Appley Bridge has Lancashire CC ones but it is within the TfGM Rail Boundary.

 

[snail]

Occasionally an additional bank holiday will be declared. In these circumstances it is a bank holiday (as an Act of Parliament is required) and bank holiday ticketing rules should apply.

Not so occasionally, it happens every year. The New Year and May bank holidays have to be declared every year because they were introduced since the original Act was published. It isn't by Act of Parliament it is by Royal Proclamation published in the London Gazette. The same method is used for additional holidays and for moving the Boxing Day holiday if it falls on a Saturday or Sunday.

Next week's May Day holiday was declared in June 2013:

BY THE QUEEN A PROCLAMATION APPOINTING WEDNESDAY 1ST JANUARY AND MONDAY 5TH MAY 2014 AS BANK HOLIDAYS IN ENGLAND, WALES AND NORTHERN IRELAND AND APPOINTING MONDAY 14TH JULY 2014 AS A BANK HOLIDAY IN NORTHERN IRELAND. ELIZABETH R.

Whereas, We consider it desirable that Wednesday the first day of January and Monday the fifth day of May in the year 2014 should be bank holidays in England, Wales and Northern Ireland:

And whereas, We consider it desirable that Monday the fourteenth day of July in the year 2014 should be a bank holiday in Northern Ireland:

Now, therefore, We in pursuance of section 1(2) and section 1(3) of the Banking and Financial Dealings Act 1971, do hereby appoint Wednesday the first day of January and Monday the fifth day of May in the year 2014 to be bank holidays in England, Wales and Northern Ireland and appoint Monday the fourteenth day of July in the year 2014 to be a bank holiday in Northern Ireland.

Given at Our Court at Buckingham Palace this thirteenth day of June in the year of our Lord two thousand and thirteen in the sixty-second year of Our Reign.

GOD SAVE THE QUEEN

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/notice/L-60541-1844773