Northern Unit Refurbishments and depot allocations.

[RealTrains07]

https://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/northern-plans-more-new-trains-after-caf-milestone per this article, looks like Northern are planning to introduce more 331s... does this make the 323 refurbishment pointless (assuming they’re to replace them)?

What was the point in refurbishming the entirety of the existing fleet if they are going be sent off lease

Its the 195s which are the issue, they aren’t compatible with the rest of the diesel fleet.

Question is wether they will get approval though as the current situation and low passenger nunbers will make new trains a very questionable decision??

Northern dosent need new trains surely. Not yet anyway. Within the next 5 years or so, yeah but not now?

 

[RealTrains07]

I would assume that the plan to buy more 331s is a recent one so refurbishments aren't an indicator as they started a while ago, all the EMUs got refurbished in some form.

Some other operator may take them on as the refurbs make them the more desirable versions of the units.

Who though? The amount of operators who use overhead wires are very little.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Nobody will take 319s - they're fit only for scrap now, or will be in 2-3 years' time.

333s might have to go the same way as 332s - pity as they look great and have modern features.

321/322 are gone - no need to worry there

323s could end up staying in the Midlands for now.

 

[43096]

I think people are running ahead of themselves. It's one comment, apparently from someone at Northern in a magazine that has a dubious relationship with the truth. Northern's stock is on long-term lease, so unless they want to start breaking contracts or paying for two sets of trains, it's not happening for a while, even assuming there's any money available to pay for it.

 

[py_megapixel]

323s could end up staying in the Midlands for now.

No they couldn't... WM Trains have made a huge order of brand new EMUs to replace them and have already said to Porterbrook they don't want them. They aren't going to be cancelling their order with Bombardier anytime soon and it's unclear what they would do with 43 units that they don't need.

Sadly I think if the 323s are replaced they will have the same fate as the 365s. They'll sit in storage in a depot somewhere, coming out every now and again to do some stop-gap work, until ultimately they get so old and poorly maintained that all they're good for is scrap.

I could imagine the 333s being a higher priority for replacement than the 323s. After all, the 323s have had much more spent on them (333s already had PIS and a PRM WC, so all they needed for PRM-compliant refurb was the cosmetic bits along with some minor adjustments such as painting the grab rails yellow) and from what I gather on here are in a better state mechanically too. The 323s are also a larger fleet.

 

[superkev]

STP/VAR 09/01

Realtime Trains - FRGT 0922 Crewe C.S. to Heaton T&R.S.M.D.
Realtime Trains - FRGT 1554 Heaton T&R.S.M.D. to Crewe C.S.
Realtime Trains - FRGT 1034 Crewe C.S. to Newton Heath T.M.D.

Only the 0922 Crewe 20 NH has run.
1554 Heaton to Crewe and 1034 Crewe NH cancelled.
K

 

[3973EXL]

Only the 0922 Crewe 20 NH has run.
1554 Heaton to Crewe and 1034 Crewe NH cancelled.
K

1034 Crewe - NH RAN 150209
0922 Crewe - HT 1554 HT - Crewe CAPED

 

[175001]

From what I saw on the tram at Central Park whilst 209 went past, there was no toilet

 

[Dspatula]

I think people are running ahead of themselves. It's one comment, apparently from someone at Northern in a magazine that has a dubious relationship with the truth. Northern's stock is on long-term lease, so unless they want to start breaking contracts or paying for two sets of trains, it's not happening for a while, even assuming there's any money available to pay for it.

Considering that; 2025 isn’t that far away, it took three years from the original order for trains to start entering service and that 197 construction is probably going to keeping CAF occupied until at least spring 2022, it’s unlikely that any new trains would arrive until after the current contracts expire anyway.

Although I am assuming the original March 2025 end date still applies to the leases. Still very much a case of ‘we’d like to do this’ not a, ‘we are doing this’ and in my opinion very unlikely in current economic climate outside of the DOO angle.

 

[Neptune]

Have people missed/forgotten the announcement from 2 years ago that DOO is dead at Northern and talks are ongoing between Northern & RMT regarding the future role of conductors which includes conductors being involved in door operation.

 

[Dspatula]

Have people missed/forgotten the announcement from 2 years ago that DOO is dead at Northern and talks are ongoing between Northern & RMT regarding the future role of conductors which includes conductors being involved in door operation.

Times have changed, the financial black hole is bigger than ever and northern wouldn’t be the first company with separate driver contract for DOO suburban electric services. I hope I’m wrong but I’m not confident about any of our jobs currently.

 

[Domh245]

Considering that; 2025 isn’t that far away, it took three years from the original order for trains to start entering service and that 197 construction is probably going to keeping CAF occupied until at least spring 2022, it’s unlikely that any new trains would arrive until after the current contracts expire anyway.

CAF have got their factories in Irun and Zaragoza that could (and likely would) fulfil any additional Northern orders rather than making them wait for availability in Newport if they wanted them sooner rather than later. They should also be able to achieve a much quicker turnaround than 3 years given that the original 3 year gap included design, sourcing, prototype manufacture, type approval, fault free running and driver training. The first 196 for example appeared in Tyseley around 18 months after the order was placed, so a similar time frame for order placed to units running around in service is feasible for Northern

 

[superkev]

From what I saw on the tram at Central Park whilst 209 went past, there was no toilet

Wonder what it spent the usual 2 weeks at Crewe for as it already had PRM mods and repaint last year
. K

 

[OTRail]

CAF have got their factories in Irun and Zaragoza that could (and likely would) fulfil any additional Northern orders rather than making them wait for availability in Newport if they wanted them sooner rather than later. They should also be able to achieve a much quicker turnaround than 3 years given that the original 3 year gap included design, sourcing, prototype manufacture, type approval, fault free running and driver training. The first 196 for example appeared in Tyseley around 18 months after the order was placed, so a similar time frame for order placed to units running around in service is feasible for Northern

When Arriva ordered the 195s and 331s, there was an option in the contract for additional units as required, although the sum remained undisclosed - this is why they were able to order 3 additional 195s for the Windermere branch.

Despite the refurbishments, I can imagine that the extra unit option was to cover the 319s as at the time it was planned for them to be retained, however this has since changed in favour of the refurbished/WMT 323s. I can likely see extra ones coming in for the Windermere branch as battery hybrids.

 

[py_megapixel]

Despite the refurbishments, I can imagine that the extra unit option was to cover the 319s as at the time it was planned for them to be retained, however this has since changed in favour of the refurbished/WMT 323s. I can likely see extra ones coming in for the Windermere branch as battery hybrids.

Because Northern already have more than enough EMUs to operate the service, not to mention 9 extra off-lease 323s they could take on if needed, IIRC the plan for the battery 331s was to order fourth carriages for some of the 3-car units with batteries fitted under the floors, not to order new units entirely.

 

[HarryL]

Have people missed/forgotten the announcement from 2 years ago that DOO is dead at Northern and talks are ongoing between Northern & RMT regarding the future role of conductors which includes conductors being involved in door operation.

I suppose Northern could use the excuse that it was technically Arriva that made the agreement and the franchise has changed hands since, but then I don't see the RMT going along with that and if anything was attempted they would probably do another 2018 to end it.

 

[Adam0984]

I suppose Northern could use the excuse that it was technically Arriva that made the agreement and the franchise has changed hands since, but then I don't see the RMT going along with that and if anything was attempted they would probably do another 2018 to end it.

By all accounts talks are going well at ACAS with only a few points left to perfect but have been prolonged because of the break from talks during the 1st lockdown period and having to do virtual meetings since the resumption

 

[158757]

Wonder what it spent the usual 2 weeks at Crewe for as it already had PRM mods and repaint last year
. K

It will have had internal works, seat covers, handrails and panels repainting etc, as it still had the FGW interior.

 

[superkev]

It will have had internal works, seat covers, handrails and panels repainting etc, as it still had the FGW interior.

Thanks. Interesting to see how the use it (toiletless 15209).
K

 

[978wta]

Thanks. Interesting to see how the use it (toiletless 15209).
K

well it would make sense to have it semi permanently coupled to another 150/2 or a 156 but no doubt if will end up will a 150/1.

 

[SCFC14]

Yes that will be interesting.

150209 was seen back in service today by a friend and he reports No Toilet.

 

[Ribbleman]

Would fitting a toilet to 209 be technically difficult? It would surely have made sense to have fitted one if possible to avoid having to remember not to let it out on its own. It’s almost as if someone is just waiting for another 150 to have a major prang to give a reason to split 209 up again and so not bother going to the expense of equipping it.

 

[OTRail]

Would fitting a toilet to 209 be technically difficult? It would surely have made sense to have fitted one if possible to avoid having to remember not to let it out on its own. It’s almost as if someone is just waiting for another 150 to have a major prang to give a reason to split 209 up again and so not bother going to the expense of equipping it.

They did it with the WMR 172/0s when they transferred from London Overground, so it’s definitely not going to be too difficult

 

[Wolfie]

They did it with the WMR 172/0s when they transferred from London Overground, so it’s definitely not going to be too difficult

They probably had been built to facilitate that though.

 

[3973EXL]

VAR/STP 16/01

Realtime Trains - FRGT 1047 Eastleigh Trsmd to Heaton T&R.S.M.D.
Realtime Trains - FRGT 0922 Crewe C.S. to Heaton T&R.S.M.D.
Realtime Trains - FRGT 1554 Heaton T&R.S.M.D. to Crewe C.S.

 

[superkev]

VAR/STP 16/01

Realtime Trains - FRGT 1047 Eastleigh Trsmd to Heaton T&R.S.M.D.
Realtime Trains - FRGT 0922 Crewe C.S. to Heaton T&R.S.M.D.
Realtime Trains - FRGT 1554 Heaton T&R.S.M.D. to Crewe C.S.

All cancelled.
K

 

[Adam0984]

All cancelled.
K

Both moves are pencilled in for next Saturday for units returning 156447 from Eastleigh and 158855 from Crewe with presumably 158861 on the return working marking an end to purple 158s

 

[jonesy3001]

I take it 323224 is staying at wolverton now the timetables change on Monday?

 

[Adam0984]

I take it 323224 is staying at wolverton now the timetables change on Monday?

Might make a return next Saturday

 

[jonesy3001]

Might make a return next Saturday

At the umpteenth attempt, nice.
Also means of 861 "does" go to crewe next weekend, spells the end of the purple livery for stock that's had PRM mods.