Northern Unit Refurbishments and depot allocations.

[yorksrob]

If we're being practical, wasting money is your problem - it's your money either through taxes or your fares paid.

As a taxpayer and a farepayer what I want is good value for money, and a pacer clearly cannot provide that. It would appear that their owners are in agreement on that point too.

I'm not convinced. If I have a train that turns up, and gets me to work in relative comfort for a reasonable price (which the 3-car 144's do), I'm happy.

Value for money as a taxpayer is more tricky. In recent franchise re-lettings, the concept has been a bit of an excuse for price-gouging us passengers, but I suppose that's a different debate !

 

[Starmill]

So, your point is that you would prefer to keep the pacers in service and order fewer new build, despite that not saving money?

 

[Halish Railway]

Would the Pacer's comply with future crash regulations?

 

[yorksrob]

So, your point is that you would prefer to keep the pacers in service and order fewer new build, despite that not saving money?

Not quite.

I'd rather keep the new build, but keep some 144's in case of 'unforseen' capacity issues. I'm not convinced that the new build and cascade as it stands, will provide enough of a capacity boost to provide that step change. Another alternative would be to convert more electrics into DMU's.

 

[LuckyT]

Trouble is angel, who own them, require northern to perform constant service on them including up to the day they hand them back. Including, handing them back in the condition they got them in. Which is Impossible so who knows what's gonna happen with them.

They also will not be fit for purpose come the new disabled toilet reg and will cost far too much to change up/fit CET Tanks to. So as far as the lease is concerned, with everything stacking up, including consumer confidence in them at a all time low (with pressure from government too), they just want to get rid. Rightly So!

 

[northwichcat]

I don't know. The 3 carriage 144's aren't really unsuited to my route

A 3 car 144 offers around the same number of seats as a 2 car 155 or 156. There's currently 14 x 156s off-lease with no future home and Northern have 10 x 3 car 144 so even if Northern decide they need to keep some Pacers or take on something else, why would keeping the 10 x 3 car 144s be a good idea?

, and if they're expensive for the TOC, not my problem, so long as they turn up !

So you're happy with the current frequency of Northern services and don't want any service or capacity enhancements? If not, an expensive solution to provide a service is a problem for you.

 

[northwichcat]

Trouble is angel, who own them, require northern to perform constant service on them including up to the day they hand them back. Including, handing them back in the condition they got them in. Which is Impossible so who knows what's gonna happen with them.

They also will not be fit for purpose come the new disabled toilet reg and will cost far too much to change up/fit CET Tanks to. So as far as the lease is concerned, with everything stacking up, including consumer confidence in them at a all time low (with pressure from government too), they just want to get rid. Rightly So!

Angel own all the 142s. Porterbrook own all the 143s and 144s.

 

[47802]

There really no need to keep the Northern Railbuses Bin end of argument

 

[jonesy3001]

Is it true the 142s are getting painted into retro liveries before they go to the scrapyard as a send off?

 

[northwichcat]

Is it true the 142s are getting painted into retro liveries before they go to the scrapyard as a send off?

That sounds unlikely unless the Pacer Preservation Society (or a similar enthusiasts group) is to pay for the repaints. Arriva were proposing putting expiry dates on a few of the 142s but decided against it.

 

[yorksrob]

The 156's would certainly be a good option.

I'm puzzled by your question as to why - if Northern decided to keep on some Pacers - they would decide to keep the 3-carriage 144's. Surely in this scenario they would go for the 3 carriage sets, precisely because they are closer to a 'normal' unit in terms of capacity and customer expectations than any of the other 14x designs.

As for whether I'm satisfied with current capacity/frequency, clearly I'm not, or else why would I be worried that the planned builds and cascades will leave us short of capacity !

 

[jonesy3001]

That sounds unlikely unless the Pacer Preservation Society (or a similar enthusiasts group) is to pay for the repaints. Arriva were proposing putting expiry dates on a few of the 142s but decided against it.

Something I read on pacer facebook group and I didn't think it would happen.

 

[LuckyT]

Angel own all the 142s. Porterbrook own all the 143s and 144s.

yeah i forgot to write porterbrook instead haha, thanks for that. i was reseaching the 142's at the same time as i'll be driving those shortly. oops!

 

[northwichcat]

The 156's would certainly be a good option.

I'm puzzled by your question as to why - if Northern decided to keep on some Pacers - they would decide to keep the 3-carriage 144's. Surely in this scenario they would go for the 3 carriage sets, precisely because they are closer to a 'normal' unit in terms of capacity and customer expectations than any of the other 14x designs.

Track access charge for a 144 is 4.64p per carriage per mile, for a 156 it's 5.09p per carriage per mile. Leasing costs would also be calculated on a per carriage basis but exact figures are in the public domain. So if a 2 car 156 would be too big for a service then a 2 car 144 would be a more cost effective option. However, in track access charges the 3 car 144 costs 13.92p per mile, while the 2 car 156 costs 10.18p per mile, so why use a 3 car 144 if a 2 car 156 can be sourced? A micro fleet of 10 x 3 car 144s will also increase crew training costs long term and also increases the probability of a service being cancelled because a replacement crew member who signs the microfleet can't be sourced.

 

[sprinterguy]

Roaming around Northernland this weekend, I've had the opportunity to try out the refurbished 155, and directly compare and contrast a refurbished 150 with an unrefurbished example. I must say, that the brush and tart up has made quite a difference and made for a much pleasanter, if spartan, travelling environment. Still can't get my legs in behind the seat in front on the 155, mind.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Not quite.

I'd rather keep the new build, but keep some 144's in case of 'unforseen' capacity issues. I'm not convinced that the new build and cascade as it stands, will provide enough of a capacity boost to provide that step change. Another alternative would be to convert more electrics into DMU's.

So pay the RSOC to have trains sit around a depot 99% of the time...

 

[LuckyT]

Track access charge for a 144 is 4.64p per carriage per mile, for a 156 it's 5.09p per carriage per mile. Leasing costs would also be calculated on a per carriage basis but exact figures are in the public domain. So if a 2 car 156 would be too big for a service then a 2 car 144 would be a more cost effective option. However, in track access charges the 3 car 144 costs 13.92p per mile, while the 2 car 156 costs 10.18p per mile, so why use a 3 car 144 if a 2 car 156 can be sourced? A micro fleet of 10 x 3 car 144s will also increase crew training costs long term and also increases the probability of a service being cancelled because a replacement crew member who signs the microfleet can't be sourced.

Either way, all 144 n 142's will need to be fully, and extensively refurbished by 2019 anyway which the owners have said they aren't going to do so they're going to be scrapped or handed back anyway. Logic dictates you would scrap the pacers now and get everyone clued up on 150 and up trained before hand, or keep the pacers until literally the day the lease runs out so you can get the most of them (with more time to prep and train staff in that time too. This also gives the company time to finance the training over a long stretch of time so they're not paying one lump sum at once getting it all paid for, alongside having the drivers away from the mainline driving the sets potentially causing delays and/or cancellations)

Although, the 2018 deadline they have set themselves seems like a good timeframe to aim for and if they pull it off, I'd be pleasantly surprised

 

[Halish Railway]

Slightly off topic, but do we know when we will see the first completed Class 195/331? Apparently they were supposed to be doing factory testing around now.

 

[northwichcat]

Slightly off topic, but do we know when we will see the first completed Class 195/331? Apparently they were supposed to be doing factory testing around now.

They aren't set to be ready for passenger service before the May 2018 timetable change but the first set should enter passenger service before the Dec 2018 timetable change. No idea when they are to be shipped across though, there's obviously obtaining clearance and crew training which must take place before they enter passenger service.

 

[Halish Railway]

But what about a picture in Spain or testing in Velim?

 

[LuckyT]

Slightly off topic, but do we know when we will see the first completed Class 195/331? Apparently they were supposed to be doing factory testing around now.

Drivers have also been helping the development of the cab in Spain iirc. Making adjustments where necessary so likely that is still going on, aswell as getting the engineers clued up on it.

 

[sprinterguy]

On another note, does anyone know why Northern have started putting fluorescent green fabric rings around the base of the couplers on all their units?

150 at Harrogate this afternoon pictured, but every unit I've seen this weekend has been the same.

 

[Adam0984]

They’re bags to protect the coupling in particularly cold weather. They used to be just kept at depot and put on as and when but they seem to have developed one that fit like a collar round the coupler just ready to be pulled over as needed

 

[sprinterguy]

They’re bags to protect the coupling in particularly cold weather. They used to be just kept at depot and put on as and when but they seem to have developed one that fit like a collar round the coupler just ready to be pulled over as needed

Ah, that makes sense. I'm just used to the old fashioned yellow bags that they plonk over the couplers as required. If they've developed a more efficacious solution, then fair play to them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There really no need to keep the Northern Railbuses Bin end of argument

Better a seat on a railbus than standing (or being unable to board) anything else.

But probably the best thing would be to bolster Northern's order for new stock with a much larger fleet of Class 769 conversions (or similar conversions of any to-be-spare third rail EMUs such as ex-SWR 455s which already have a high quality modern interior and modern traction package unlike 319s), which will provide relatively cheap additional capacity.

 

[northwichcat]

Better a seat on a railbus than standing (or being unable to board) anything else.

But probably the best thing would be to bolster Northern's order for new stock with a much larger fleet of Class 769 conversions (or similar conversions of any to-be-spare third rail EMUs such as ex-SWR 455s which already have a high quality modern interior and modern traction package unlike 319s), which will provide relatively cheap additional capacity.

Reportedly 769s won't be cheap. Although, Porterbrook might have to lower leasing costs on the 319s given they now have much cheaper to lease 323s off lease as well.

 

[superkev]

Been to dmu day on the East Lancs today. The overall ambiance and comfort of the seats particularly of the superbly restored class 104,105 and 109 certainty puts modern stuff to shame (traditional internal rattles excepted). Perhaps Northern management should have a look.
K

 

[Eccles1983]

Been to dmu day on the East Lancs today. The overall ambiance and comfort of the seats particularly of the superbly restored class 104,105 and 109 certainty puts modern stuff to shame (traditional internal rattles excepted).
K

That's a fair comparison.

A plaything for the weekend v a massively oversubscribed commuter route and vehicles.

 

[Malay States]

Slightly off topic, but do we know when we will see the first completed Class 195/331? Apparently they were supposed to be doing factory testing around now.

See post1740, last paragraph.

 

[DJH1971]

It appears today's 07:38 MCV-LIV service consists of two 319s for some strange reason.