Northern Unit Refurbishments and depot allocations.

[IanXC]

So after the fleet movements have happened what depot is having what fleet,
eg;
allerton - 319s
newton heath - 156s,150s
blackburn - 142s,144s

Blackburn is a stabling location not a depot which will have any allocation. All Northern stock is allocated to Allerton, Heaton, Longsight, Newton Heath or Neville Hill. (And for the pedants out there 37s at Kingmoor, 185s at Ardwick, and SR 156s at Corkerhill).

 

[Charlie150275]

Excellent post thank you

Will Neville Hill get 158s?

 

[47802]

Wikipedia quotes 523hp
K

Indeed I'm not sure the 750hp is right

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/.../view/engines-ordered-for-civity-uk-dmus.html

 

[sprinterguy]

The ex North Western Trains 156s have chapmans which I believe are fitted in a 3+2 configuration in the ex North Western 150s so perhaps these ones will replace ashbournes in the 3+2 150s

Though something of a potential stumbling block is that there's only eighteen ex-FNW 156s fitted with Chapman seats, while Northern will have 32 class 150/1s (and I think 17 class 150/2s) that still retain Ashbourne seating.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So is 170s to Chester instead of 195s or is it an interim measure like 769s to Windermere?

I'm sure someone mentioned ironing board seats with extra padding. The reason claimed was people said about the extra leg room on the ironing board seats, despite the 'seats roadshow' not giving any leg room indication.

ScotRail have used ironing boards in the 385s but with a differently shaped seat base cushion. The "default" cushion is quite thin and completely flat (i.e. perfectly horizontal). I don't mind it, but many people are not fans. The modified one is sloped slightly towards the seat back and slightly contoured, which does make a significant difference to comfort (I've tried both on adjacent seats during the ScotRail consultation). If they have chosen this one I think people will generally like it.

There's not a lot wrong with the *back* of ironing boards - some don't like them being upright but that's very much a "Marmite" thing, and they are quite thin-backed so will give good legroom[1] in all seats as they do on the newer Electrostars, while the high back means everyone can rest their head on them, and the tapering at the top means they are less claustrophobic than other very high-backed seats.

[1] If the number of seats per unit is fixed already, which I think it is, it is clear that thinner back = more legroom.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The ex North Western Trains 156s have chapmans which I believe are fitted in a 3+2 configuration in the ex North Western 150s so perhaps these ones will replace ashbournes in the 3+2 150s

Correct. Dispensing with the armrests makes them fit.

 

[northwichcat]

Though something of a potential stumbling block is that there's only eighteen ex-FNW 156s fitted with Chapman seats, while Northern will have 32 class 150/1s (and I think 17 class 150/2s) that still retain Ashbourne seating.

The franchise agreement indicates all 2 car 150s will have 124 seats post-refurbishment (the same number the ex-FNW 150/1s currently have), while the 3 car sets will have 194 seats. The ex-FNW 156s have 146 seats so that's a total of 2628 seats.

They'll be 16 hybrid sets, which means if the figures you quoted are correct (note there's suggestions about the number of 150s Northern will get from GWR not being the same as indicated in the franchise agreement) so that will leave 9 x 150/2s and 16 x 150/1s to refurbish as 2 car sets. 25 x 124 = 3100 seats required, with a further 3104 required for the hybrid 3 car sets and that doesn't include the 150/0s which may or may not transfer.

So regardless of the exact number of GWR transfers the seats off the ex-FNW 156s will go less than half way to refurbishing the 150s which weren't refurbished by FNW.

However, Northern do have some ex-Wessex 158s which have the same type of seats, as well as some 153s and the 155s. (Not sure on the exact number of 158s and 153s with the correct type of seating but the total number of seats on all the 155s is 1120.) If all those seats were used as well would Northern still be short?

 

[northwichcat]

ScotRail have used ironing boards in the 385s but with a differently shaped seat base cushion. The "default" cushion is quite thin and completely flat (i.e. perfectly horizontal). I don't mind it, but many people are not fans. The modified one is sloped slightly towards the seat back and slightly contoured, which does make a significant difference to comfort (I've tried both on adjacent seats during the ScotRail consultation). If they have chosen this one I think people will generally like it.

There's not a lot wrong with the *back* of ironing boards - some don't like them being upright but that's very much a "Marmite" thing, and they are quite thin-backed so will give good legroom[1] in all seats as they do on the newer Electrostars, while the high back means everyone can rest their head on them, and the tapering at the top means they are less claustrophobic than other very high-backed seats.

[1] If the number of seats per unit is fixed already, which I think it is, it is clear that thinner back = more legroom.

I get the impression the refurbished Northern 156s will pretty much replicate the 156s which Scotrail have just refurbished: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DDWrf8gXoAAzngH.jpg Even the CIS display matches the CIS which has already been installed on some of the Northern 156s.

I think the ex-FNW 156s have the right compromise of seating comfort and leg room. The ex-ATN 156s have too many seats and despite the seats being heavily padded they aren't all that comfortable, so you get less leg room and don't even get a more comfortable seat.

 

[casualobserver]

deleted

 

[387star]

Northern have several ex Wales and west 158s with Chapman seats

 

[387star]

So Richmond sears are too wide even without armrests ?

 

[sprinterguy]

So regardless of the exact number of GWR transfers the seats off the ex-FNW 156s will go less than half way to refurbishing the 150s which weren't refurbished by FNW.

However, Northern do have some ex-Wessex 158s which have the same type of seats, as well as some 153s and the 155s. (Not sure on the exact number of 158s and 153s with the correct type of seating but the total number of seats on all the 155s is 1120.) If all those seats were used as well would Northern still be short?

I count eight class 153s (The former FNW units) and six class 158s fitted with Chapman seats within the Northern fleet, offering a total of 1380 seats between them, assuming that Porterbrook were inclined to reseat units which will be leaving the franchise anyway. That totals 2500 including the 155s, so still a significant shortfall.

So Richmond sears are too wide even without armrests ?

I'd suspect that they are, though even if not I think it'd be nice if Northern could manage to achieve one consistent layout of train across a single class, rather than attempting to perpetuate the hotch potch that we have now to a lesser extent.

 

[Jamesrob637]

156488 is in the new livery as of today (01/11)

 

[northwichcat]

I count eight class 153s (The former FNW units) and six class 158s fitted with Chapman seats within the Northern fleet, offering a total of 1380 seats between them, assuming that Porterbrook were inclined to reseat units which will be leaving the franchise anyway. That totals 2500 including the 155s, so still a significant shortfall.

The 153s are probably going to end up being scrapped so they won't need any replacement seats if they are.

 

[BigCj34]

The 153s are probably going to end up being scrapped so they won't need any replacement seats if they are.

Given that diesel rolling stock is in short supply and Pacers are due to be withdrawn, plus uncertainty as to if replacement rolling stock will fill the gap, why would 153's be scrapped? Are they life-expired beyond repair or is there going to be an injection of available rolling stock with the Flex trains and IEP units?

 

[northwichcat]

Given that diesel rolling stock is in short supply and Pacers are due to be withdrawn, plus uncertainty as to if replacement rolling stock will fill the gap, why would 153's be scrapped? Are they life-expired beyond repair or is there going to be an injection of available rolling stock with the Flex trains and IEP units?

153s are in a very sorry state with sagging bodies and corrosion issues. On top of that they need expensive PRM modifications which Porterbrook decided are non-economically viable for a single carriage trains, while the cost of reforming them in to 155s isn't cheap either. Note Porterbrook spent money on PRM modifications for one 144 to show what could be done, so it sounds like keeping 153s in service post-2019 is less economically viable than keeping 143s or 144s in service.

 

[BigCj34]

153s are in a very sorry state with sagging bodies and corrosion issues. On top of that they need expensive PRM modifications which Porterbrook decided are non-economically viable for a single carriage trains, while the cost of reforming them in to 155s isn't cheap either. Note Porterbrook spent money on PRM modifications for one 144 to show what could be done, so it sounds like keeping 153s in service post-2019 is less economically viable than keeping 143s or 144s in service.

Of course, refurbishing a 144 is not allowed for post-2020, neither is the D-train. So are the options essentially more Flex trains, and hope for more cascades from other franchises (and be reliant on whatever they're doing)? Would the D-trains option even be allowed in addition to the new rolling stock Northern had to order, as my understanding was there had to be new trains that couldn't sue existing parts, ruling out the D-train, but what about in addition to to address capacity issues that may go beyond the terms of the franchise agreement?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Of course, refurbishing a 144 is not allowed for post-2020, neither is the D-train.

In what way? Both the "ePacer" and D-train are accessibility compliant, that's the whole point.

Neither were allowed by the franchise agreement, but those have been renegotiated before.

 

[northwichcat]

In what way? Both the "ePacer" and D-train are accessibility compliant, that's the whole point.

Neither were allowed by the franchise agreement, but those have been renegotiated before.

I think that's the point being got at - they couldn't be included in the Northern bid. Technically the 144 isn't fully compliant but Porterbrook expected it to get minor exemption orders, similar to the ones the 150s have received.

Given the Northern franchise was let on the basis that Pacers would go and recycled old underground trains wouldn't replace them it would be a massive U-turn for the government and Rail North to allow Pacers to remain or D-Trains to arrive. However, as you say there is scope for renegotiation as has already been proved by the class 769 agreement and Grayling allowing Northern to look at 'alternative fuel trains' for Windermere instead of 331s.

 

[yorksrob]

Well, It's now 18:37 and I'm stood on the 2 carriage pacer out of Leeds. Switching to a 2 carriage 150 will provide some capacity increase, but it won't be nearly enough. Unless they're planning either an increase in frequency or more carriages, it won't be enough from the start, let alone for future growth.

There should be no 2 carriage diagrams on the Hallam stopper.

 

[Halish Railway]

Lets get the facts Clear:
This should be what seats are in what train;
150's: Chapman Seats
155's: Chapman Seats
156's: Fainsa Ironing Boards
158's: New seats coming, probably Fainsa Ironing Boards to save money
195's: Fainsa Ironing Boards
319's: Origional Ashbourne Seats
331's: Fainsa Ironing Boards
333's: Not sure, doubt that they would keep the current seats, they would probably use new Fainsa Ironing Boards to save money
769's: Origional Ashbourne Seats

Let me know of any changes or things that I have got wrong.

 

[Bletchleyite]

While the premium Grammer seat would be nice in the Northern Connect units, the ironing boards aren't *that* bad when fitted with the thicker contoured seat base used by ScotRail.

I'm not a great fan of the Class 319 Ashbourne seats, but in the low density 2+2 layout in most of LM's 319s (they have one set in the same layout as Northern, and one *really* nice set which has 2+2 Chapman seats with armrests the same as North West 156s in a very low density layout) they are acceptable, especially if a modified bracket is fitted to move them 1.5" or so away from the wall as is the case in the priority seats in the LM sets.

 

[northwichcat]

319's: Origional Ashbourne Seats

333's: Not sure, doubt that they would keep the current seats, they would probably use new Fainsa Ironing Boards to save money

769's: Origional Ashbourne Seats

The seats in the 333s are as modern as the seats in the ex-FNW 150s and 156s, so if you think the 319s and 769s will keep their existing seats why should the 333s get new seats? I imagine they'll refurbish the existing seats and get rid of the most worn ones when they reduce the seating density in the driving cars.

Haven't some of the 319s being converted to 769s being refurbished with Chapman seats?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Haven't some of the 319s being converted to 769s being refurbished with Chapman seats?

These (LM has one) are the 319/2s which gained those seats in Connex days (and a small buffet under the pantograph, now removed and replaced with a small area of 3+2 Ashbourne seating) for the Brighton Express workings. They are really quite nice, would be a good fit for the Windermeres, not really differing from the classic use of Class 156s other than in door position and length.

 

[Halish Railway]

The seats in the 333s are as modern as the seats in the ex-FNW 150s and 156s, so if you think the 319s and 769s will keep their existing seats why should the 333s get new seats? I imagine they'll refurbish the existing seats and get rid of the most worn ones when they reduce the seating density in the driving cars.

Haven't some of the 319s being converted to 769s being refurbished with Chapman seats?

The 333 seats are in a right mess at the moment. Are they the same seats that are in the middle carriages of the Class 334's.

 

[northwichcat]

^ Is there broken plastic or will repadding and recovering them along with repainting the seat backs fix the problems?

 

[Halish Railway]

^ Is there broken plastic or will repadding and recovering them along with repainting the seat backs fix the problems?

Quite a lot of the plastic is damaged and some bases of the seats are missing.

 

[palmersears]

The first GWR 150, 124 has been transferred over to Northern according to reports elsewhere. It's gone up to Doncaster for 'refurbishment' and will appear in the delightful Northern livery upon completion.

 

[sprinterguy]

The first GWR 150, 124 has been transferred over to Northern according to reports elsewhere. It's gone up to Doncaster for 'refurbishment' and will appear in the delightful Northern livery upon completion.

Good to hear that it's at least being 'refurbished' and repainted prior to entering service, rather than being pressed directly into service as were the units that were cascaded from London Midland a few years back, including the hotchpotch 150/2 units which had been split and reformed from 3-car hybrid sets wearing different liveries!

 

[47802]

The first GWR 150, 124 has been transferred over to Northern according to reports elsewhere. It's gone up to Doncaster for 'refurbishment' and will appear in the delightful Northern livery upon completion.

Will that be the full refurbishment or somewhere in between as the current ones? I seem to be one of the few who actually like the new Northern Livery, certainly better than the previous one which was dull and drab in my view.