Northern Unit Refurbishments and depot allocations.

[47802]

Aye, the interior is far more important. Northern Spirit's 142 refurbishment is the current holder of the "shiniest turd" award... Will this 155 beat it?

I think you can be sure its a "polished turd", on the plus side hopefully these units will be relegated to local stopper in the next few years.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

155346 was seen earlier in Leeds in the new livery, from what I could see the grab handles on the seat backs have been retained.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Here you go. An hour and a half early at settle

First unit I've seen that actually suits it.

 

[Rail Blues]

First unit I've seen that actually suits it.

I agree.

I still think the colour scheme is ill chosen, after a couple of winters it will look shabby and grubby.

Quite an accomplishment that: a livery that manages to be boring and impractical at the same time.

 

[Boothby97]

I saw a class 150 unit outside Wabtec in Doncaster today which looked freshly out of the paintshop in the old Northern Rail colours of blue and purple (without names) Is this livery still being applied? Is the new Northern livery just for certain classes?

That was 150140.

 

[47802]

So how many DMU's have been done so far in over a year is it about 8. Given that these are supposed to be done by the end of 2019, just taking Northern's existing DMU's that are to be retained, ignoring the electric's and the cascaded in DMU's by my calculations it works out at about 4.6 Units per month will need to be done in remaining time

 

[tom1649]

Northern Spirit's 142 refurbishment is the current holder of the "shiniest turd" award...

You've obviously never experienced the Merseytravel 142 refurbishment, with their back pain inducing seats. The Northern Spirit refurbishment is luxurious in comparison.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

You've obviously never experienced the Merseytravel 142 refurbishment, with their back pain inducing seats. The Northern Spirit refurbishment is luxurious in comparison.

The NS refurb is a well-polished turd though

 

[bieomax]

333009 was in Leeds today

Sent from my HTC One M8s using Tapatalk

 

[Andyh82]

I think you can be sure its a "polished turd", on the plus side hopefully these units will be relegated to local stopper in the next few years.

There are still loads of fairly long distance journeys made on local stoppers though, just like there is with the pacers now.

That's why the idea that the oldest trains can be banished to local branch lines is never really true, as there aren't many lines that actually fall into this category.

 

[1D53]

333009 is back in traffic, unrefurbished.

 

[507021]

333009 is back in traffic, unrefurbished.

Thanks, I've added it to the list.

For those interested, here is a link to the most recent list.

 

[47802]

There are still loads of fairly long distance journeys made on local stoppers though, just like there is with the pacers now.

That's why the idea that the oldest trains can be banished to local branch lines is never really true, as there aren't many lines that actually fall into this category.

Well yes but you can not cater for every eventuality, I think overall the product offered by Northern Rail should be much improved on what is offered at present, and probably the best that the Northern Franchise was likely to get.

 

[northwichcat]

That's why the idea that the oldest trains can be banished to local branch lines is never really true, as there aren't many lines that actually fall into this category.

Indeed. People say no-one would use the Mid-Cheshire from end to end but plenty of people use it in getting from Chester (and beyond) to Sheffield (and beyond) via Stockport due to it providing better connections with TPE/EMT services than the ATW service between Chester and Manchester.

 

[iknowyeah]

So how many DMU's have been done so far in over a year is it about 8. Given that these are supposed to be done by the end of 2019, just taking Northern's existing DMU's that are to be retained, ignoring the electric's and the cascaded in DMU's by my calculations it works out at about 4.6 Units per month will need to be done in remaining time

Northern aren't happy with the standard and want guarantees before they refurb the rest of the fleet AFAIK

 

[railfan100]

Northern aren't happy with the standard and want guarantees before they refurb the rest of the fleet AFAIK

Northern seem a little unscrupulous with the 'Sprinter' fleet maintenance as so many of the Cummins units sound broken and as if they have have not had an oil change for such a long time. On a positive note at least some of the Northern rail managed stations in Greater Manchester at least seem a little better than front line war zones so I suppose progress is being made.

 

[387star]

On holiday in France I am struck by how smart the french rural trains are eg dinan in Brittany for instance. . What looked like a very sleek modern one coach train ? I guess timetables might be poor and I hear some lines are run down but the rolling stock looked a world away from what the north suffers with

That livery really is ill chosen.. far too much white and the n logos do . Not add anything

 

[47802]

Northern aren't happy with the standard and want guarantees before they refurb the rest of the fleet AFAIK

I suspect that translates into what they are prepared to spend doesn't go far enough for a really good refurbishment.

 

[railfan100]

I suspect that translates into what they are prepared to spend doesn't go far enough for a really good refurbishment.

No matter how much is spent in the current UK system the flawed TOC model will never be efficient in my opinion. So much money is taken out of the system. Privatisation of the profits and nationalisation of the loses is the current 'strategic' UK method.

Just look at the walk on peak fares in the North and then look at the rolling stock in use. Something seriously is wrong and it does not add up at all. Also some of the new Northern rolling stock on order e.g. 2-car DMU additions is likely to be overcrowded before they even arrive!

 

[Roast Veg]

2-car DMU additions is likely to be overcrowded before they even arrive!

Not unless there are lots of travellers from the factory...

 

[47802]

No matter how much is spent in the current UK system the flawed TOC model will never be efficient in my opinion. So much money is taken out of the system. Privatisation of the profits and nationalisation of the loses is the current 'strategic' UK method.

Just look at the walk on peak fares in the North and then look at the rolling stock in use. Something seriously is wrong and it does not add up at all. Also some of the new Northern rolling stock on order e.g. 2-car DMU additions is likely to be overcrowded before they even arrive!

I'm not convinced that the money is taken out is as much as some people make out, and having worked for a nationalised company before it was privatised at least some of that would be counterbalanced by the inefficiency and waste that I saw.

The point is Northern's rolling will be substancially improved and I don't have any real complaints about Northern's rolling stock plans, other than arguably the Refurbishments could be a little better. Whether the capacity increases proposed will be enough remains to be seen but remember there will be a significant increase in 3 car trains and some route will have increased frequency over parts or all the route. While you cannot get away from the fact that there will be many Northern routes where the difference between running costs and fare revenue is large.

 

[railfan100]

I'm not convinced that the money is taken out is as much as some people make out, and having worked for a nationalised company before it was privatised at least some of that would be counterbalanced by the inefficiency and waste that I saw.

The point is Northern's rolling will be substancially improved and I don't have any real complaints about Northern's rolling stock plans, other than arguably the Refurbishments could be a little better. Whether the capacity increases proposed will be enough remains to be seen but remember there will be a significant increase in 3 car trains and some route will have increased frequency over parts or all the route. While you cannot get away from the fact that there will be many Northern routes where the difference between running costs and fare revenue is large.

Look at the walk on peak fares something seriously cannot be well, Northern lease outdated and life expired former BR stock for what could be considered extreme sums. Then there are the track access charges and this is reflected in the fares as the operator still has to cover all of the costs which I see as not competitive and make money.

BR was under insane financial pressure to cut costs and still managed to introduce a then new 'Sprinter' and 'Pacer' fleet for the North. Hard to believe in the current deskilled UK that then the trains were designed in the bulk and built in this country and all with fares that were not as eye watering as the current 'modern' system.

 

[47802]

Look at the walk on peak fares something seriously cannot be well, Northern lease outdated and life expired former BR stock for what could be considered extreme sums. Then there are the track access charges and this is reflected in the fares as the operator still has to cover all of the costs which I see as not competitive and make money.

BR was under insane financial pressure to cut costs and still managed to introduce a then new 'Sprinter' and 'Pacer' fleet for the North. Hard to believe in the current deskilled UK that then the trains were designed in the bulk and built in this country and all with fares that were not as eye watering as the current 'modern' system.

Well yes they do lease outdated life expired stock but then is nothing else available at present, and BR had to produce the cheapest possible vehicle for many routes the Pacer.

 

[railfan100]

Well yes they do lease outdated life expired stock but then is nothing else available at present, and BR had to produce the cheapest possible vehicle for many routes the Pacer.

BR did a reasonable job to introduce then new DMU's for the North amongst huge financial pressure. The current TOC model in the UK is broken the cost base of everything is far too high and this is now reflected by walk on peak fares that often cost more than using the private car.

As I say something is so fundamentally broken with the Northern franchise the fares are a million miles away from reflecting the actual service provided. Never mind at least there should be standing room within the new 2-car DMU's that are on order. As they have multiple working within class only Northern will also lose some flexibility with the new stock.

 

[47802]

BR did a reasonable job to introduce then new DMU's for the North amongst huge financial pressure. The current TOC model in the UK is broken the cost base of everything is far too high and this is now reflected by walk on peak fares that often cost more than using the private car.

As I say something is so fundamentally broken with the Northern franchise the fares are a million miles away from reflecting the actual service provided. Never mind at least there should be standing room within the new 2-car DMU's that are on order. As they have multiple working within class only Northern will also lose some flexibility with the new stock.

Which is probably a good reason for putting the new stock on Connect Services, while non Connect DMU's will have full compatibility. I don't see how you can say that just because fare's are high that nessesarly the fault of a privatised system, there are clearly lots of factors including the level of subsidy provided etc etc. all of which is getting away from the point of this thread.

 

[CosherB]

Northern seem a little unscrupulous with the 'Sprinter' fleet maintenance as so many of the Cummins units sound broken and as if they have have not had an oil change for such a long time. On a positive note at least some of the Northern rail managed stations in Greater Manchester at least seem a little better than front line war zones so I suppose progress is being made.

Please enlighten me on how you can tell a Cummins engine needs an oil change from the noise it makes? :roll:

 

[railfan100]

Please enlighten me on how you can tell a Cummins engine needs an oil change from the noise it makes? :roll:

They have an LCD display don't they They sound knackered, I also know multiple Northern fitters, maintenance is poor and this is reflected in some embarrassing failures.

 

[railfan100]

Which is probably a good reason for putting the new stock on Connect Services, while non Connect DMU's will have full compatibility. I don't see how you can say that just because fare's are high that nessesarly the fault of a privatised system, there are clearly lots of factors including the level of subsidy provided etc etc. all of which is getting away from the point of this thread.

Look at the taxpayer subsidies something is costing too much and it is not all connected to infrastructure improvements. A selling point for the system being operated by private hands was supposed to be competition which would drive down fares, it never quite worked out that way The peak walk on fares are beyond ludicrous for many trips. I can only put it down to cognitive dissonance how this cannot be questioned it is the elephant in the room.

 

[MCR247]

A selling point for the system being operated by private hands was supposed to be competition which would drive down fares, it never quite worked out that way T

This chestnut again It was never meant to introduce competition at the point of use

 

[Clarence Yard]

Look at the taxpayer subsidies something is costing too much and it is not all connected to infrastructure improvements. A selling point for the system being operated by private hands was supposed to be competition which would drive down fares, it never quite worked out that way The peak walk on fares are beyond ludicrous for many trips. I can only put it down to cognitive dissonance how this cannot be questioned it is the elephant in the room.

It's just Government policy on peak fares, nothing more, nothing less. They really are not related to the costs of running the franchise. The Government want to extract as much revenue as possible from a captive market.

The amount of money that the Infrastructure operator costs is really what has changed. Partially it's financing their big debt, partially it's because the real costs of doing what they have to do has genuinely increased but they haven't (until very recently) been subject to the kind of cost control that TOCs are under and BR used to be under.

Refurbishing stock is currently subject to all kind of penny pinching moves by the DfT if you let them. It was ever thus with Government and BR had to fight like mad to get money to refurbish old DMUs and then get the Pacers and Sprinters built. Even then we had to scrap far more old vehicles than we received new. The treasury made sure we did that - they always wanted their efficiency "savings" off BR.