Northern Unit Refurbishments and depot allocations.

[Mr Mean]

The interior of that 150 is awful. The original seats should have been ripped out and replaced with something better. There is no way you can comfortably sit 3 people together and the fact the 2 seats are also narrow mean you get the inevitable overhang into the aisle. This reduces available standing room and prevents the guard coming through to check tickets.

I've been on the refurbed GWR sets and they are so much better than northerns unit. Surely it can't cost that much to replace the seats, especially considering the train will probably be on service well into the 2020s. If GWR and the Welsh can get new seats under similar franchise constraints, why can't northern?! To date I've yet to see anything of value arriva have brought to the franchise.

 

[northwichcat]

Is it? It's outdated as the service now starts from Halifax, yes, but it's a service that's run by the train shown in the photo, which comes with seats and wifi. I don't see what else is wrong with it?

I'd question the 'new' part not just because of what you mentioned but because it was created as part of splitting up a service to free up a DMU to allow Northern to loan fewer 185s from TPE to allow for the TPE 170s going to Chiltern.

 

[HA25322]

There is one going in the opposite direction today to replace 150275. A 5S08 is approaching Penrith. Not sure what it is though as nothing allocated.

 

[M1544]

150276 enroute to Kilmarnock

 

[diligentdave]

From the looks of things I will sum up the refurbishment of 150275. cheap, poor, disappointing might aswell not have bothered sorry to be harsh For me its like upgrading from a reliant robin to a mini cooper !! when you could easily have gone for a Porsche or Ferrari

Obviously you know where to get hold a good pot of money to upgrade your reliant robin then David. Unlike hot air, which you seem to have a lot of and is free, refurbishment does not come cheap.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Refubishment is probably the wrong word as to me it means a complete put back to as new including mechanical componants too. Perhaps redecoration or refresh would be a better word.
Perpaps the 158s particularly would benifit from son mis life enhancement to the air con, engine and transmisdion with state of the art replacements.
K

Typically, in recent years, "refresh" has been used to mean "new seat covers and paintwork", while "refurbishment" has tended to mean "new seats plus paintwork, panelling and carpets". So this is a refresh.

More of said bluster?
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Obviously you know where to get hold a good pot of money to upgrade your reliant robin then David. Unlike hot air, which you seem to have a lot of and is free, refurbishment does not come cheap.

The issue I certainly have with it, as others probably do, is that it is being oversold, not that that is what is being done. That is, the cheap hot air that is being issued from Northern's publicity department, like the Class 158, is the problem.

The unit has had a refresh including a deep clean, repaint (in a pig-ugly livery, but that's by the by) and new seat covers, and that is what they should be saying it has had in the publicity.
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I've been on the refurbed GWR sets and they are so much better than northerns unit. Surely it can't cost that much to replace the seats, especially considering the train will probably be on service well into the 2020s. If GWR and the Welsh can get new seats under similar franchise constraints, why can't northern?! To date I've yet to see anything of value arriva have brought to the franchise.

The Welsh 150s haven't had new seats, they are the Chapman ones that were fitted by Wales and West under the previous franchise in the same layout (there are some which are unrefreshed and they are in a disgusting state inside). The treatment they are getting is an interior refresh of a similar spec and price to these units (albeit a different style). Same I think with the GWR ones (and give it 5 minutes, that grey will look terrible as soon as someone lobs coffee over it).
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FWIW the LM 150s look decent inside despite having only had a similar refresh. But then I don't think LM ever called it anything but that - and now there are only three of them they are probably looked after as depot pets.

In summary, the issue is Northern doing lots of blustering then failing to deliver what they said.
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Actually, that LM one really does *look* loads better than the Northern one even if practically it is identical.

Wood-effect or coloured lino and some patterns on the seat moquette would have cheered it up hugely, I reckon. But then LM has always been good at *looking good* even if their actual service is in many ways often lacking.

 

[DarloRich]

Yet Regional Railways were able to initiate a class 156 refurbishment programme, and Northern Spirit and First North Western were able to comprehensively refurbish their 142/156 and 150 fleets respectively within a much shorter franchise term, despite all three carrying fewer passengers per annum than Northern do today. As such I don't think that the "where's the money" argument is sufficient reason to leave the seating unchanged from what it was 15, or more, years ago, when other internal changes are being made out of necessity.

I think it is.

RRNE chose to spend that money knowing they could do so without the overt commercial pressure faced by the TOC. It is worth noting that in the "olden days" this type of work was built into the business unit long term financial plan and was almost set in stone. Your vehicle went for mechanical overhaul at points XYZ and internal overhaul at points ABC almost regardless of service use! There is no way the TOC ever do that.

Of course, the TOC could also chose to spend that money but will only do so when it suits their bottom line to do so or their hand is forced. They have taken a commercial decision not to spend in this area. I can imagine investment suggestions have been made for internal refrubs and repaints but have been knocked back on the basis that a patch up is cheaper and no one is making them spend the money.

I am not saying this is the right thing to do from a passenger point of view but understand why the TOC might make the decisions they have. I also wonder if the jam tomorrow ( or if not tomorrow this week) principle has had a bearing on such decisions. new trains have been promised for a long time on Northern.

 

[lejog]

This is a bit of a cheeky advertising campaign by Northern!

Cheeky? Having caught the Northern 180 service into Leeds a couple of times since it was extended to run from Halifax, I'd say its probably the most civilized morning commute I've ever experienced. It even arrives at one of the "VTEC" platforms next to the ticket gates at Leeds, so no long traipse from the York end of a through platform and over a packed footbridge. If only they'd extend it to Hebden Bridge for me.

 

[DarloRich]

FWIW the LM 150s look decent inside despite having only had a similar refresh. But then I don't think LM ever called it anything but that - and now there are only three of them they are probably looked after as depot pets.

that's my seat that is! BTW they ain't depot pets by any stretch

 

[sprinterguy]

IIt is worth noting that in the "olden days" this type of work was built into the business unit long term financial plan and was almost set in stone. Your vehicle went for mechanical overhaul at points XYZ and internal overhaul at points ABC almost regardless of service use!

I can only agree with that, although as to your opening sentence BR's activities and performance were scrutinised extremely closely by the treasury on a regular basis, which did result in cuts to Regional Railway's services during the early nineties. However, as well as the regimented schedule of maintenance that BR adhered to, the joined up thinking under BR often resulted in both mechanical and internal work being undertaken at the same time as far as I recall, saving a further trip to works at an intermediate point.

One of the faults of privatisation is that rolling stock condition has become very hit and miss depending on the policy of the current or a previous operator, whereas BR probably would have embarked upon a national refurbishment programme for a given class, and at more frequent intervals, it seems, than the current crop of private operators. This is a far wider issue than the condition, and protracted delivery, of Northern's refurbished units, though.

I can imagine investment suggestions have been made for internal refrubs and repaints but have been knocked back on the basis that a patch up is cheaper and no one is making them spend the money.

I don't even need to imagine this as I am fully aware of these sorts of discussions being had and decisions being made at some TOCs. It is frustrating that improving the passenger's lot beyond the legal minimum is sometimes way down a TOC's list of priorities if it doesn't satisfactorily meet their financial projections.

The major issue here is, as Neil Williams outlines, that the new Northern franchise was trumpeted as delivering a transformational change in the standard of the rolling stock, whereas the refurbished units completed so far fall incredibly short of that.

 

[copernicium112]

Has 142086 been painted into the new livery? Found this image...

 

[jonesy3001]

Has 142086 been painted into the new livery? Found this image...

That looks photoshopped, why bother painting these when they have only 2 yrs left.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The major issue here is, as Neil Williams outlines, that the new Northern franchise was trumpeted as delivering a transformational change in the standard of the rolling stock, whereas the refurbished units completed so far fall incredibly short of that.

Agreed. The issue is not that units are being refreshed, that's welcome (even if I would have used a different design to make the units look less basic at no more cost). The issue is the bluster which the product doesn't live up to. And as I said I know who I believe originates that culture and how harmful I think it is.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Obviously you know where to get hold a good pot of money to upgrade your reliant robin then David. Unlike hot air, which you seem to have a lot of and is free, refurbishment does not come cheap.

Northern shouldn't have put out a press release saying they will be fully refurbished then. If there was no pot of money don't pretend there is one.

 

[DarloRich]

I don't even need to imagine this as I am fully aware of these sorts of discussions being had and decisions being made at some TOCs. It is frustrating that improving the passenger's lot beyond the legal minimum is sometimes way down a TOC's list of priorities if it doesn't satisfactorily meet their financial projections.

I agree - I have been party to very similar discussions ( although not so often about furnishings) - it is immensely frustrating

The major issue here is, as Neil Williams outlines, that the new Northern franchise was trumpeted as delivering a transformational change in the standard of the rolling stock, whereas the refurbished units completed so far fall incredibly short of that.

but that must relate to the new rolling stock surely

 

[Starmill]

Certainly not to read the press releases, ministerial gushes and Alex Hynes' rhetoric from the time. I suppose that this teaches us a lesson about how much ministers and top-level executives are to be trusted - but some of us don't like to be ultra-cynical about everything. Most people were onboard with a genuine vision with this.

 

[coxxy]

Believe 158756 is also on its way back to Neville Hill

 

[507021]

Believe 158756 is also on its way back to Neville Hill

Excellent, thanks for the update.

Hopefully we'll find out which 158 (presumably another three car) is next to be refreshed in the next day or two.

 

[superkev]

Believe 158756 is also on its way back to Neville Hill

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O64947/2017/01/18/advancedb

 

[47802]

Of course if they did put new seats in the 150's they might well be the ironing board type so might be as well sticking with the ones that they have:roll:

 

[Bletchleyite]

Of course if they did put new seats in the 150's they might well be the ironing board type so might be as well sticking with the ones that they have:roll:

I know those seats aren't popular, but I don't see how anyone could consider them worse than the atrocious original Class 150/2 seats.
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Northern shouldn't have put out a press release saying they will be fully refurbished then. If there was no pot of money don't pretend there is one.

Exactly. Passengers don't like bluster and lies.

Set a realistic expectation (a refresh) then exceed it (by making it a very good refresh, which they haven't even done - all the other recent 150 refreshes look nicer inside). That's how to do it.
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but that must relate to the new rolling stock surely

I'm sure it does, but when it isn't even half the fleet it's more bluster. Abellio Greater Anglia can make that claim with their full fleet replacement. Northern can't.

I know they couldn't afford to do it for Northern - the issue I have is the claims and failure to deliver on them. Which as I said is an issue of corporate culture coming straight from the top.

 

[TEW]

I know those seats aren't popular, but I don't see how anyone could consider them worse than the atrocious original Class 150/2 seats.

And arguably ironing board seats are fairly appropriate for the type of work 150s are designed for; fairly short distance regional and commuter trains. A low density layout with 2+2 ironing boards and plenty of standing space would surely be perfect for some routes. The problems come when 150s are used on longer distance work, but the current interiors on Northern 150s is hardly suitable for that anyway.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Northern shouldn't have put out a press release saying they will be fully refurbished then.

Perhaps the question to be put to Northern should ask them to fully clarify their understanding of the phrase "fully refurbished".

 

[Frothy]

Compare for example...

https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/corporate/about-northern

Containing statements such as
'existing fleet refurbishment to an as-new condition'
And
'No false promises, no excuses'

...With the emerging refresh, and it's easy to feel a little swindled.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

 

[Bletchleyite]

And arguably ironing board seats are fairly appropriate for the type of work 150s are designed for; fairly short distance regional and commuter trains. A low density layout with 2+2 ironing boards and plenty of standing space would surely be perfect for some routes. The problems come when 150s are used on longer distance work, but the current interiors on Northern 150s is hardly suitable for that anyway.

And there will be less of that when the new fleet arrives, in any case.
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'existing fleet refurbishment to an as-new condition'

I suppose you could argue that a repaint and new seat covers does deliver that *technically*, but you know how people are going to read that statement, and it involves at least new seats to bring them up to a modern standard, rather than just make them look like it's 1985 and they've just rolled out of Derby.

It's deliberately devious use of language, I'd say.

 

[507 001]

Having now seen a better photo of the 150 interior, I can say it's better than it looks in the photo on this thread.

Still not what it should be though. It's had a lick of paint, new Lino, new bog and a PIS system fitted.

They haven't even fitted diffused lighting, so it looks very..... stark.

 

[Bungle965]

Having now seen a better photo of the 150 interior, I can say it's better than it looks in the photo on this thread.

Still not what it should be though. It's had a lick of paint, new Lino, new bog and a PIS system fitted.

They haven't even fitted diffused lighting, so it looks very..... stark.

It may be a bit cynical and also could be wrong, but I think that the money for a proper refurbishment has had to be spent on corrosion work instead, which is a known issue for the class 150 fleet. As a result northern has had to cut down on the refurbishment and just go with the bare minimum.
Sam

 

[notlob.divad]

If it is that big an issue then maybe they should be looking at options on more CAF DMUs. No point throwing good money at keeping 150s going for how many years more life?

I am not sure this is the problem. As others have pointed out, it would not necessarily have cost any more to change the same things but with a better design.

 

[TC60054]

I'll be honest - the work done on 144012 looks much better than how all three of the ARN units have turned out so far.

 

[childwallblues]

150275 is an ex-ATN example so seeing what's been done will be interesting.

And prior to that it was a South Wales unit that came north under the Pacer swap.