Northern Unit Refurbishments and depot allocations.

[childwallblues]

There was a Thameslink liveried Class 319 in Allerton depot this evening (at the Hunts Cross end) with all of its interior lights switched on, but I couldn't identify which one it was because it was too dark.

Probably 319218.

 

[Frothy]

Not that I know anything about it, but maybe delays are due to Northern trying to negotiate a more extensive refurbishment with the DfT?

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[507021]

Probably 319218.

You're right, it was there again this afternoon. This time I managed to identify it by its name plate.

 

[superkev]

Over 9 months into the franchise and just 158 752 redecorated. The 155 and 150 I believe are still at Kilmarnock - not earned a penny in service for months
I suspect all is not well.
K

 

[northwichcat]

Over 9 months into the franchise and just 158 752 redecorated. The 155 and 150 I believe are still at Kilmarnock - not earned a penny in service for months
I suspect all is not well.
K

Rumour is Arriva thinks the contractor didn't do a good enough job with 158752 and corrosion problems on the Sprinters are worse than envisaged.

I wonder if Arriva are talking to DfT about more Civities or Turbostars or something happening with the released 185s that benefits them (even if it results in the 185s going to another operator and releasing something else for Northern)?

 

[superalbs]

Rumour is Arriva thinks the contractor didn't do a good enough job with 158752 and corrosion problems on the Sprinters are worse than envisaged.

I wonder if Arriva are talking to DfT about more Civities or Turbostars or something happening with the released 185s that benefits them (even if it results in the 185s going to another operator and releasing something else for Northern)?

What'd be really good is for Northern to give up their 3 car Class 158s, in exchange for Class 185s. SWT can then convert them to Class 159/1s, sorting capacity issues on SWT too.

 

[158756]

Over 9 months into the franchise and just 158 752 redecorated. The 155 and 150 I believe are still at Kilmarnock - not earned a penny in service for months
I suspect all is not well.
K

Not good news.

I believe, if wikipedia is correct on the fleet composition, and all the sprinters need refurbishment, including those yet to join the franchise, then to refurbish the lot by the end of 2019 requires a rate of one every SIX DAYS for the next 3 years. Nine months for three units isn't a good start.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Not that I know anything about it, but maybe delays are due to Northern trying to negotiate a more extensive refurbishment with the DfT?

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Should that not have been the case originally when the Class 319 were being discussed?

 

[northwichcat]

What'd be really good is for Northern to give up their 3 car Class 158s, in exchange for Class 185s. SWT can then convert them to Class 159/1s, sorting capacity issues on SWT too.

But if Northern do need something in lieu of the older Sprinters (due to corrosion issues) they could finish up taking on all the available 170s and 185s and still not have any 158s freed up. They also have plans to run 5 car 158s on some routes which would be a bit difficult using 185s (but possible using 170s instead.)

I wonder if the best solution is for an all-new DMU fleet for SWT and then when EMT and ATW get renewed they'll be 158s and 159s available for extra capacity and to replace 153s.
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Should that not have been the case originally when the Class 319 were being discussed?

Originally the Northern 319s were to get brand new 2+2 seating and tables and be fitted with air conditioning. They were also to be for extra capacity not to replace DMUs. However, when George Osborne became Chancellor he reduced the budget for DfT and it led to DfT deciding it would be best to refresh the 319s rather than refurbish them and to make Northern prove they still needed the DMUs which the 319s were replacing.

 

[JaJaWa]

Maybe they are getting a lot more 319s including diesel variant?

 

[Bevan Price]

What'd be really good is for Northern to give up their 3 car Class 158s, in exchange for Class 185s. SWT can then convert them to Class 159/1s, sorting capacity issues on SWT too.

Very bad idea - that would lose about 50 standard class seats.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Rumour is Arriva thinks the contractor didn't do a good enough job with 158752 and corrosion problems on the Sprinters are worse than envisaged.

I wonder if Arriva are talking to DfT about more Civities or Turbostars or something happening with the released 185s that benefits them (even if it results in the 185s going to another operator and releasing something else for Northern)?

The rate things are looking I woundn't be too suprised if Arriva have to order a load more units to replace the lot, possibly as four car (considering that the three car 158's are rammed on the Blackpools).

TBH the entire fleet should be a mix of four and five car not a two car 195 with absolutely no chance of it ever getting upgraded to a three or four car unit, but that's another thing.

 

[Jamesrob637]

TBH the entire fleet should be a mix of four and five car not a two car 195 with absolutely no chance of it ever getting upgraded to a three or four car unit, but that's another thing.

90% agree, but I think some 3-car sets would be okay, as some off-peak trains can cope with three. However, the proviso here is that Northern double them up for peak services. Individual door controls would allow the rear coach/two coaches to be locked if the platform were only able to accommodate four cars

 

[northwichcat]

TBH the entire fleet should be a mix of four and five car not a two car 195 with absolutely no chance of it ever getting upgraded to a three or four car unit, but that's another thing.

I think it's down to an uncertain long term rail strategy. They'll definitely be plenty of suitable routes for 2 and 3 car DMUs in 25 years time but will there be suitable routes for 5 and 6 car DMUs in 25 years time if electrification continues?

However, given Arriva have plans to use the new trains in both single and double formation why they didn't opt for corridor connections is less clear.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I think it's down to an uncertain long term rail strategy. They'll definitely be plenty of suitable routes for 2 and 3 car DMUs in 25 years time but will there be suitable routes for 5 and 6 car DMUs in 25 years time if electrification continues?

However, given Arriva have plans to use the new trains in both single and double formation why they didn't opt for corridor connections is less clear.

It's been said several times about how it is difficult to provide a walk-through cab which meets crash regs. The 380s and 385s do have them, so it is possible- but drivers don't seem too keen on the view from those cabs.

 

[northwichcat]

It's been said several times about how it is difficult to provide a walk-through cab which meets crash regs. The 380s and 385s do have them, so it is possible- but drivers don't seem too keen on the view from those cabs.

Yes there's constraints but constraints don't have to be a barrier. How many people were saying there would never be new diesel trains for the UK again because of the latest diesel regulations or that there would never be new loco-hauled due to the operational costs?

 

[47802]

Yes there's constraints but constraints don't have to be a barrier. How many people were saying there would never be new diesel trains for the UK again because of the latest diesel regulations or that there would never be new loco-hauled due to the operational costs?

While a corridor connection may be possible it appears to be less than ideal from the 385 example. Arriva may have thought it wasn't worth the probable extra cost and potential issues with the unions over visibility and cab layout. It also begs the question as to whether all manufacturers will be prepared to even offer it as an option, and whether CAF were prepared to offer it in this case.

Isn't also the case that the majority of services worked by the new trains will still be single unit services.

 

[northwichcat]

Isn't also the case that the majority of services worked by the new trains will still be single unit services.

It's not clear exactly how many carriages will be on every service but what is clear is the maximum train lengths for some lines (as Arriva have requested platform lengthening) and that some 'Northern Connect' routes which are getting new 195s aren't guaranteed new trains on every service. Given all the 158s are supposed to be refurbished to 'Northern Connect' standard perhaps that means for peak and shoulder peak services they'll get 158s so that 195s can be doubled up on other routes.

 

[Starmill]

It's been said several times about how it is difficult to provide a walk-through cab which meets crash regs. The 380s and 385s do have them, so it is possible- but drivers don't seem too keen on the view from those cabs.

Either order trains as long as their peak variant (as at Thameslink), or come up with an agreement with the Union on the design (as at Scotrail?).

I find it impossible to believe that neither was possible. Now Northern will have to provide a second member of staff on all (or most) trains in order to collect revenue... unless they come up with a new ticket machine somewhere that is. Apparently it takes 10 months to even make an announcement about where will get new ticket machines, in which time significant people are being either a) wrongly prosecuted or b) getting free journeys. It's not just units new and refurbished that they have not effectively mobilised, is it?

How many people were saying there would never be new diesel trains for the UK again because of the latest diesel regulations or that there would never be new loco-hauled due to the operational costs?

Absolutely. I don't see any of those commentators munching their humble pie!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Either order trains as long as their peak variant (as at Thameslink), or come up with an agreement with the Union on the design (as at Scotrail?).

Just as a matter of sheer interest, in how many other European countries do the rail unions have an input into the matter that is raised above?

 

[D365]

Yes there's constraints but constraints don't have to be a barrier. How many people were saying there would never be new diesel trains for the UK again because of the latest diesel regulations or that there would never be new loco-hauled due to the operational costs?

I think it was more the fact that people doubted that there would be any kind of significant investment into rolling stock up north...
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Either order trains as long as their peak variant (as at Thameslink), or come up with an agreement with the Union on the design (as at Scotrail?).

The reason for ordering full-length trains for London is that the need for ultra high-capacity rolling stock outweighs the benefit of units that have the flexibility of splitting and joining. And the Class 380/385 gangway compromises are universally loathed.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Either order trains as long as their peak variant (as at Thameslink), or come up with an agreement with the Union on the design (as at Scotrail?).

I find it impossible to believe that neither was possible. Now Northern will have to provide a second member of staff on all (or most) trains in order to collect revenue... unless they come up with a new ticket machine somewhere that is. Apparently it takes 10 months to even make an announcement about where will get new ticket machines, in which time significant people are being either a) wrongly prosecuted or b) getting free journeys. It's not just units new and refurbished that they have not effectively mobilised, is it?



Absolutely. I don't see any of those commentators munching their humble pie!

It seems that although we've moved away from the "no growth" days, the Northern franchise is still one of compromise. We have new diesel units, but not many. We have the promise of extra units being cascaded but again, not many. Several routes will see an increase in frequency but new and cascaded units are only enough to cover the frequency uplift (and replace the life-expired pacers), not to cater for the inevitable increase in ridership this will spark. Electrification delays are also an issue, as while there will be dozens of surplus EMUs there's nowhere to run them. :roll:

 

[northwichcat]

I think it was more the fact that people doubted that there would be any kind of significant investment into rolling stock up north...

The way a lot of people were talking they made it sound like a new DMU order for an operator like SWT had been completely ruled out as well.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It seems that although we've moved away from the "no growth" days, the Northern franchise is still one of compromise. We have new diesel units, but not many. We have the promise of extra units being cascaded but again, not many. Several routes will see an increase in frequency but new and cascaded units are only enough to cover the frequency uplift (and replace the life-expired pacers), not to cater for the inevitable increase in ridership this will spark. Electrification delays are also an issue, as while there will be dozens of surplus EMUs there's nowhere to run them. :roll:

The way the ITTs (Northern and TPE) were written it made it sound like DfT wanted Northern bidders to take on any available DMU (other than Pacers) and them to order around 120 additional diesel carriages because the cascaded trains wouldn't stretch far enough to replace Pacers and running the additional services.

 

[mikemcniven]

Just seen on a Facebook group that 158756 has been spotted on test at Kilmarnock in full livery new livery!

It is a closed group so I am unable to provide a line

 

[Mollman]

Does anyone know why the contract for the couple of 156s refurbished to DDA standards under the last franchise was not continued? Seems like an easy win to me, as is repainting those that have already been done into the new livery.

 

[superalbs]

Just seen on a Facebook group that 158756 has been spotted on test at Kilmarnock in full livery new livery!

Interesting post there about the Class 155, whether or not it is true, is up for discussion. :P

Apparently the corrosion was that bad that when they scraped all the muck masking tape and metros away it just fell into a pile of scrap metal

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Interesting post there about the Class 155, whether or not it is true, is up for discussion. :P

Good old British Leyland! :roll:

 

[northwichcat]

British Leyland trains were supposed to be a joke train to sell to Yorkshire but the joke backfired on Lancashire.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Wasn't quite sure which thread to post this in, but this morning, at Heaton Chapel, the 07:15 to Wigan raced through to the bewilderment of some regular commuters, acting effectively as a one-coach train since the rear coach was in darkness

My question most relevant to this thread is; is there any news on when Northern will be getting cascaded Sprinters from other operators, and will they undergo extensive refurbishment also? On a side note, I hope that this and the later 07:41 to Clitheroe (both of which originate in Buxton) become 4 cars this year, as at least with 3 remaining functioning coaches, it avoids the need to have to skip vital station calls (Although I believe that a Hazel Grove to Piccadilly service called additionally at HC and Levenshulme this morning, however, if it's the one I'm thinking of, that's only 2 coaches also!)

 

[NorthernSpirit]

I think it's down to an uncertain long term rail strategy. They'll definitely be plenty of suitable routes for 2 and 3 car DMUs in 25 years time but will there be suitable routes for 5 and 6 car DMUs in 25 years time if electrification continues?

However, given Arriva have plans to use the new trains in both single and double formation why they didn't opt for corridor connections is less clear.

In 25 years time the third / fourth gen units will be knackered and will probably be in the same state as the class 142's, 150's and 155's, some bright spark by then would probably attempt to convert the new stock to mark 10 bi-modes or converted to some futuristic 22nd century EMU.

Without the corridor connections, this is what got me thinking as to why didn't Arriva purchase the new fleet with addtional coaches from the word go - OK they are planning on running some as doubles and some as singles but I do think that within five years we'll end up with the same problems that TPE have with the 185's - not enough coaches.

The three car 195's in the medium term are probably destined for the Penistone, Pontefract, Dearne Valley, South Fylde, East Lancs, Esk Valley and Yorkshire Coast lines as these lines won't be electrified for a fair while yet.