• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Northern TVM hiding cheapest fare?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Mcr Warrior

Veteran Member
Joined
8 Jan 2009
Messages
17,265
Difficult to see how failing to offer all the available walk-up fares, from the origin station to a given destination, means that accreditation is deemed to be successful. Charging an extra £5.10 when the "via Wigan" variant single ticket would otherwise be valid (Through Man Victoria to Headbolt Lane trains are invariably routed via Wigan) seems unequivocally like a big fail to me.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Haywain

Veteran Member
Joined
3 Feb 2013
Messages
24,714
Difficult to see how failing to offer all the available walk-up fares, from the origin station to a given destination, means that accreditation is deemed to be successful. Charging an extra £5.10 when the "via Wigan" variant single ticket would otherwise be valid (Through Man Victoria to Headbolt Lane trains are invariably routed via Wigan) seems unequivocally like a big fail to me.
Even if it was deemed to be an accreditation failure, it would not be one of sufficient priority to have the TVMs turned off until it was fixed. The reality is that if Northern are aware of his they will be seeking to have the problem rectified by the supplier, which is no different to what would happen for an accreditation failure.
 

redreni

Established Member
Joined
24 Sep 2010
Messages
2,713
Location
Slade Green
Compare and contrast TOCs' attitude to errors by passengers, with this laid back attitude to a TOC error here.
 

Haywain

Veteran Member
Joined
3 Feb 2013
Messages
24,714
with this laid back attitude to a TOC error here.
I am explaining how things work. Is it laid back to know a bit about the accreditation process? I've actually gone through accreditation for TVMs in the past, including the testing and generating the results and documentation required by RDG so I know what is involved.
 

Angmering1974

On Moderation
Joined
26 Jun 2023
Messages
162
Location
UK
I have a similar complaint open with them about 'Quick Buy' and they've tried to fob me off with some free tickets to avoid the Ombudsmen.

They are trying to say the next valid route is one involving doubling back which saves 0 minutes and that's why they show a more expensive fare. Absolute nonsense. Everyone wants to save the £2.20, stay on the same platform, and avoid going back to go forward. Regardless, it doesn't justify not showing the cheapest ticket at all

Can anyone advise if the Ombudsmen is the correct next step after getting nowhere with their complaints team?
 
Last edited:

AdamWW

Established Member
Joined
6 Nov 2012
Messages
5,962
Can anyone advise if the Ombudsmen is the correct next step after getting nowhere with their complaints team?

As I understand it, if you are seeking action based on a specific occurance (e..g it sold you a more expensive ticket than it should have so you want a partial refund) the Ombudsman may help (though they appear to have a tendency to leave it up to the railway company to decide if they've done anything wrong or not).

If you want something more general like getting them to reprogram the machines, that's outside their remit.
 

Haywain

Veteran Member
Joined
3 Feb 2013
Messages
24,714
As I understand it, if you are seeking action based on a specific occurance (e..g it sold you a more expensive ticket than it should have so you want a partial refund) the Ombudsman may help (though they appear to have a tendency to leave it up to the railway company to decide if they've done anything wrong or not).
There is a not unreasonable expectation that you complain to the train company first.
 

AdamWW

Established Member
Joined
6 Nov 2012
Messages
5,962
There is a not unreasonable expectation that you complain to the train company first.

Of course, but the OP appears to have already done this.

But even having done so I don't think the Ombudsman is the place to go unless you are seeking a very specific redress for a single incident.
 

redreni

Established Member
Joined
24 Sep 2010
Messages
2,713
Location
Slade Green
I have no idea how you come to that conclusion.
Well, the thing is, when a passenger does something wrong, the rail industry has managed to convince Parliament that proving intent would be too difficult and, consequently, we have strict liability offences under the byelaws. In effect, this means dishonest intent on the part of the passenger is very often simply assumed.

Now, where a TOC is overcharging passengers, the nub of the difference between your attitude and mine may well be that I believe, almost on a point of principle, that TOCs ought not to be able to rely on an automatic assumption that the overcharging is unintentional.

For the record in this particular case, I believe it's unintentional. The mere fact that tickets continued to be sold at the wrong price for months after a round of fare increases from London Underground TVMs shows that the failure to resolve issues with TVMs can occur in situations of undercharging as well as overcharging, so cannot always be intentional. On the other hand when I look at the range of tickets available at the TVMs at Heathrow Airport, I absolutely believe the overcharging is intentional, because the failure to offer the best value fares is quite systematic and can only really be the result of a special effort.

But in order to make my point I'm not relying on anyone agreeing with what I believe regarding intent in this or any other case. I am saying that intent to overcharge ought to be assumed purely because overcharging is the inevitable consequence of failing to display the cheapest fare, and the regulator should respond accordingly, with fines etc. (I am aware that this would involve introducing an effective system of regulation and giving the regulator the relevant powers, so couldn't be done under the current arrangements).

I'm sure the way the TOCs view this kind of issue is to a large extent a function of the way the regulator views it. I just happen to believe a much, much stricter and dimmer view of it ought to be taken, and if it were, the urgency of the response and the resources that would be made available to prevent it happening, and to fix it when it happens, would be different.
 

Angmering1974

On Moderation
Joined
26 Jun 2023
Messages
162
Location
UK
As I understand it, if you are seeking action based on a specific occurance (e..g it sold you a more expensive ticket than it should have so you want a partial refund) the Ombudsman may help (though they appear to have a tendency to leave it up to the railway company to decide if they've done anything wrong or not).

If you want something more general like getting them to reprogram the machines, that's outside their remit.
Thank you for your reply. I guess I shall also write to my MP, and our Mayor. I think my local rail group might have some ideas / contacts too.
 

robbeech

Established Member
Joined
11 Nov 2015
Messages
4,900
To resurrect this, did notice today at Worksop that a “quick buy” Worksop to Wakefield only displays the any permitted fare at £31 odd and not the via Sheffield fare that’s half the price. There are more journey opportunities via Sheffield (hourly direct plus some extras) than via Retford.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top