Northern Travel Incident Report issued today; Requesting your kind help

[butterflycat]

Hello everyone,

I stumbled upon this website few hours ago when I was in panic and searching through web for some due diligence on the topic of Travel Incident Report and how it works. I have read similar questions and was taken back on the kindness this community showed to help people stuck in such a situation.

Myself and my partner travelled from Stockport to Manchester Piccadilly today. I purchased our advanced single tickets using our two together railcard and paid £2.70 for Northern train set for 11:33 a.m. departure. Foolishly, being too eager to reach Manchester we boarded a 10 minute early train at 11:23 a.m. i.e. the one before ours from the same platform we were supposed to take our destined train.

In the train, the conductor scanned our tickets and mentioned they are invalid and asked us to pay £10.20. We apologied and I tried to make the said payment but unfortunately my card got declined. I was about to ask the conductor if you can give me a receipt and we can try to make the said payment at destination station at customer service desk? As this is the first time something of such sort happened to us, we didn't know how these procedures go, the conductor gave us a receipt of Card Declined in the train.

We were both panicked and genuinely scared. Upon reading Manchester Piccadilly, we were directed to another officer who scanned our tickets and gave us a Travel Incident Report receipt after hearing our end of story. After having read similar situations on this new found platform, I am afraid I will receive a letter demanding £100 + fare charge each for myself and my partner.

I wanted to pay at station and still want to pay the due £10.20 but do not know what are the best steps to take. I came home and immediately wrote a draft email to send to drpu@northernrailway.co.uk but some people mention to not proactively chase Northern first and wait for letter hence I'm seeking advice here first before doing anything. Whereas some suggest to call customer service> drpu and explain immediately.

I am hereby writing this post to humbly request your kind help via lending your knowledge and suggest what is the best way to go ahead? I am awfully scared to receive a £200+ penalty although some people did post to only receive the fare as debt before receiving fixed rate penalty.

Thanking you sincerely.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I am afraid I will receive a letter demanding £100 + fare charge each for myself and my partner.

@butterflycat. Welcome to the forum. Unfortunately, I think that this is what will likely now happen. Not sure how you can avoid this. You might just have done so had you successfully paid the fare due onboard and your payment card hadn't been declined.

 

[butterflycat]

@butterflycat. Welcome to the forum. Unfortunately, I think that this is what will likely now happen. Not sure how you can avoid this.

Thankyou so much for your response. Do you think if I call the customer service tomorrow or write to Debt Recovery and Prosecution Unit in advance, requesting to pay my pending £10.20 fare to Northern, there is any hope for a better outcome?

 

[AlterEgo]

Thankyou so much for your response. Do you think if I call the customer service tomorrow or write to Debt Recovery and Prosecution Unit in advance, requesting to pay my pending £10.20 fare to Northern, there is any hope for a better outcome?

Unfortunately not. They will send you a letter and you will need to deal with that once it arrives. It will probably be a Fixed Penalty type letter asking for the outstanding fare plus £100 in admin fees.

 

[Blinkbonny]

Hope it works out.

 

[butterflycat]

@Mcr Warrior @AlterEgo Thankyou for your kind response. I have additionally read that if the fine is paid within a certain timeframe, the fine is £50+ Fares and only after that increases to £100+ Fares. Is this true for the case of Northern? If so, is the timeframe from the date of ticket being issued or receiving the letter? As other letters that I have read on this platform directly demand £100+ Fares. I would be grateful if you could shed some insights on the same.

 

[pedr]

The reduction to £50 plus the full fare is part of the formal Penalty Fare system. Penalty Fares are on the spot charges (with the option to pay later) and it’s clear that you weren’t charged a Penalty Fare as the person you encountered first offered to let you simply pay the normal fare for the journey you were making and then, when you couldn’t do that, reported you to the company’s revenue protection team for them to consider what to do.

They can’t charge a Penalty Fare now. Instead they will probably write to you explaining that they have enough evidence to prosecute for the crime of boarding a train for travel without a valid ticket, and offering not to do that in exchange for the payment of a sum of money.

This seems similar to a Penalty Fare but it’s not covered by the same rules. You can’t appeal it the way there is a set procedure for appealing Penalty Fares and it isn’t reduced by paying promptly. The company will expect a quick response and, if they make that offer, quick payment, but they will expect the full sum, otherwise they’ll enforce their right to bring a prosecution.

 

[butterflycat]

Hello @pedr thankyou so much for your quick response, much appreciated. In such a case, would you advise that I wait to receive a letter or post one myself apologizing for my mistake, expressing how keen I am to pay the penalty they deem appropriate. I have already made a draft as I am wondering if I take the first step requesting out of court settlement, it will be beneficial to then only expect the fine charge. I have observed that people generally get two letters of which first is either requesting an explanation for TIR or requesting to pay the outstanding fare of £10-15 and second being the £100+ Fares. The officer at station advised to call customer care but as above suggested by forum experts, this does not result in any help. I can't express why but I am so eager to resolve this issue as someone like myself, I lose sleep and appetite over such ordeals.

 

[pedr]

Each train company works slightly differently and I think from other posts here that Northern tends to offer the settlement including their £100 charge in their first letter. This is their estimate/assertion of the cost to them of running the revenue protection system and investigating and corresponding with you about this ticketless travel. For now the best advice is to wait to see what they say when they write to you. This might happen very quickly or it might take a few months, so just make sure you're able to receive post at the address you gave, and try not to think about it too much. When you do receive a letter you're welcome to post a (personal details redacted) photo of it here so people here can advise, though if they offer to settle then it is likely you'll be advised to just pay immediately.

Did they take separate details from you and from your partner? They might deal with this as two separate incidents, with two separate letters without any indication that you were travelling together, so do look out for separate communication addressed to each of you.

 

[Pushpit]

. I have observed that people generally get two letters of which first is either requesting an explanation for TIR or requesting to pay the outstanding fare of £10-15 and second being the £100+ Fares. The officer at station advised to call customer care but as above suggested by forum experts, this does not result in any help. I can't express why but I am so eager to resolve this issue as someone like myself, I lose sleep and appetite over such ordeals.

This is a normal human stress reaction to an unexpected event that has left you worried and concerned for the future. One way the brain works in this situation is to crave closure, and it's difficult to "move on" until that stage is reached. I am sure you know this already. But unfortunately rail companies tend to be process bound, plus there will be many other fare evaders (from Northern's perspective) that are also being processed right now. You have just the one incident that is gnawing at you, Northern has hundreds. And I've no doubt that train companies aren't particularly worried about the impact it has upon you. Mercifully the law requires some things to happen within 6 months, so there is that back-stop. You shouldn't worry, this isn't crime of the century, on one level you seem to see this as a silly mistake - and maybe that's what you need to remind yourself that it's just one of life's little annoyances.

Unfortunately there isn't a lot you can do really, other than have the £110 approx handy for when Northern do write to you. I would be pleasantly surprised if they just ask for the £10 fare but from their perspective you got the cheapest ticket. with inflexible conditions, perhaps to get you through any ticket barriers, when you actually wanted flexibility (but didn't want to pay for it) and apparently didn't have the means to pay for the correct fare when challenged. Now there is another narrative which will say "well this other train was only a few minutes earlier, on a very high frequency line for a short distance, so what's the harm?" but from Northern's perspective that's part of the problem. But rest assured, this too will pass.

 

[butterflycat]

@pedr Thankyou so much for your kind response again. I shall most definitely attach the letter here to receive valuable feedback from you and experts on this forum. The officer only asked myself about my personal details as I paid for our tickets using the two together railcard. We scanned both our tickets, took picture of card declined receipt, produced one singular Train Incident Report receipt and provided it to us mentioning that I will receive a letter requesting to explain the situation. We are new to the country and take buses for 98% of our travel and honestly know much about the railway policies. We even asked the conductor that sorry the card declined, can we try is again anywhere at the station when we reach? But the officer who provided us with TIR explained that we do not have such a facility at the destination.

@Pushpit Thankyou very much for your kind words. I have read your response twice and will use it as a constant reminder that this is one of the many hiccups life throws at you and that in due time, it shall pass as well. After receiving such kind support on this forum and your advice, I shall now wait patiently for the letter and post it here seeking suggestions before proceeding on the matter. Thankyou very much pushpit, I appreciate it a lot.

 

[LYuen]

Why will it be a penalty fare, not the difference between the advance fare and anytime/off-peak single?
Shouldn't it fall under NRCoT 9.5.1 (using a time-restricted Ticket that is correctly dated but invalid for the service) and Northern should charge for the difference.
Only 9.2 (no ticket or ticket bought after boarding) can the operator charge you a penalty fare.

 

[AlterEgo]

Why will it be a penalty fare, not the difference between the advance fare and anytime/off-peak single?
Shouldn't it fall under NRCoT 9.5.1 (using a time-restricted Ticket that is correctly dated but invalid for the service) and Northern should charge for the difference.
Only 9.2 (no ticket or ticket bought after boarding) can the operator charge you a penalty fare.

It isn't a Penalty Fare. This is a TIR.

 

[jamiearmley]

Why will it be a penalty fare, not the difference between the advance fare and anytime/off-peak single?
Shouldn't it fall under NRCoT 9.5.1 (using a time-restricted Ticket that is correctly dated but invalid for the service) and Northern should charge for the difference.
Only 9.2 (no ticket or ticket bought after boarding) can the operator charge you a penalty fare.

It's not time restricted - that refers to off peak, super off peak, anytime etc.

It's a service specific ticket. It can be changed before travel for a fee, but changes cannot be made on board the train.

In any event, the fee and the excess, in this case, would be more expensive than selling a new ticket.

If you join a train for which your advance ticket is not valid, you are treated as though you have no ticket at all. (Hence the 'no ticket' reason often found on penalty fare receipts).

This is often debated on this forum - and probably will be now - however, 9.4 defines an advance ticket as service specific and 10.1.3 allows for a penalty fare to be issued when travelling on a train for which a service specific ticket is invalid.

It follows that anything that may be penalty fared may also be TIR'd.

 

[butterflycat]

Hello @LYuen Thankyou for your kind response and insight on this thread. Due to your post I was able to access the booklet outlining these rules and regulations.

As @jamiearmley has highlighted that two different clauses can be undertaken by an admin to react in two different methods. This stands true to my reading on this forum as some were only charged the outstanding fare whereas some had the fixed rate penalty.

 

[jamiearmley]

Hello @LYuen Thankyou for your kind response and insight on this thread. Due to your post I was able to access the booklet outlining these rules and regulations.

As @jamiearmley has highlighted that two different clauses can be undertaken by an admin to react in two different methods. This stands true to my reading on this forum as some were only charged the outstanding fare whereas some had the fixed rate penalty.

Does this mean that these are two clauses (9.4 and 10.1.3) act as a loophole for Northern to charge highest possible amount rather than proportionate?

It's not a loophole, no.

You did not have a valid ticket for the journey you made. This is a strict liability offence - intent, or lack of understanding, does not affect or alter it.

The highest that Northern could charge would be laying information before a magistrates court, which could result in the court issuing fines, costs, surcharges etc around the £600 mark. Each.

Wait and see what comes next. It may be weeks before you hear from them - and there is nothing to be done to expedite this.

Although there are potential extreme outcomes, they are unlikely. Wait now for the letter, try and put it out of your mind, and return here when the letter arrives. This is one of those life events where the waiting period is out of your control, and you can only start to affect the outcome in a positive way once you get the letter.

Good luck!

 

[butterflycat]

@jamiearmley Thankyou very much again for your support.

I truly hope that once I receive the letter I express my strong intent to pay the fine and settle this matter out of court. The highest fine myself and partner are expecting £100 each with additional £10 Fares; so we are already preparing ourselves to hiccup £210 on this occasion.

I truly can't express my sincere gratitude to this platform enough for the support and insights received within the first day. I shall await the letter and post it here at the earliest.

Thanking everyone again. Any more insights of similar northern cases would be greatly appreciated.

 

[butterflycat]

Hello,

I am hereby writing to request to fellow members of the forum for further guidance on this matter.

It has been a month today since the incident report was issued to me. Considering recent threads concerning Northern and their response time, I am worried as I have not yet received my first letter. My grave concern is due to being on work visa and hence missing the opportunity to positively engage via letter can have impacts and damage beyond my nightmares.

I would appreciate if I can receive any advice on if I should write an email to request if any letter has been issued for myself? I would appreciate your kind suggestions and support.

 

[Pushpit]

It has been a month today since the incident report was issued to me. Considering recent threads concerning Northern and their response time, I am worried as I have not yet received my first letter. My grave concern is due to being on work visa and hence missing the opportunity to positively engage via letter can have impacts and damage beyond my nightmares.

I think I can only repeat the point made in my post 10 above. Unfortunately the rail companies (and not just Northern) work at their own pace, and sometimes even go beyond 6 months, in which case there can be no prosecution under the two sets of legislation habitually used with these cases. What Northern may well be doing is going through any rail apps you have to see if you have a habit of (e.g.) short faring, since this was a route which is known for it. Because you are deemed as someone trying to evade their fare, they won't have a lot of sympathy for any turmoil it causes at your end.

I know it's unfortunate, there are so many trains between Stockport and Manchester that it's difficult at the best of times to know you were on the right service. It is also unfortunate that the RPI even got the time to find you on the train. But ultimately you bought heavily restricted tickets, you chose to go on another service and Northern will be wanting their pound of flesh. Eventually. You best not try to be pro-active about this. So long as you are certain you gave the correct name and address with the TIR issue, they will contact you in the fullness of time. They have thousands of cases like this on their books at the moment.

 

[butterflycat]

Thankyou very much @Pushpit for your kind reassurance as last month has been most anxious one; all hard work to build my life in UK seemed to fade and I am most scared than ever been in my life.

After reading threads whereby a Northern TIR issued a week previous to mine have already received letter, hence it made me concerned if their is a possibility that my mail is lost and if so, should one actively email about it to ensure communication is established. I definitely intend to positively engage through letters and apologize for my mistake. Thanking you again your your kind response and support, I shall brace myself and be more patient.

I think I can only repeat the point made in my post 10 above. Unfortunately the rail companies (and not just Northern) work at their own pace, and sometimes even go beyond 6 months, in which case there can be no prosecution under the two sets of legislation habitually used with these cases. What Northern may well be doing is going through any rail apps you have to see if you have a habit of (e.g.) short faring, since this was a route which is known for it. Because you are deemed as someone trying to evade their fare, they won't have a lot of sympathy for any turmoil it causes at your end.

I know it's unfortunate, there are so many trains between Stockport and Manchester that it's difficult at the best of times to know you were on the right service. It is also unfortunate that the RPI even got the time to find you on the train. But ultimately you bought heavily restricted tickets, you chose to go on another service and Northern will be wanting their pound of flesh. Eventually. You best not try to be pro-active about this. So long as you are certain you gave the correct name and address with the TIR issue, they will contact you in the fullness of time. They have thousands of cases like this on their books at the moment.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Oct 2024 ==

Hello everyone,

In anticipation of receiving my letter from northern in few days, I have taken the advice from @Hadders and other threads to write a draft in advance covering the major outlined points in a concise manner. I am certain that suggestions by experienced forum members will help me make necessary changes or highlight errors that I may have missed.

I am hereby attaching the draft and requesting your kind suggestions. I would forever appreciate your time, support and patience in helping me with this situation.

Subject: (please kindly advise me an appropriate subject)


Dear Sir/Madam,


I am writing in response to the letter dated XX in relation to my journey on the 04th of September 2024.


I had purchased two tickets for myself and my partner using our two together railcard to travel from Stockport to Manchester Piccadilly. In the moment of hurridness, we boarded the train before ours. The inspector upon check notified us that presence on an early train service made our tickets invalid. Upon purchasing new tickets, unfortunately the card payment declined and we anxiously requested if one can pay the due fare at any customer service desk at the end destination via receipt. We were redirected to an officer who explained to us that unfortunately such a facility to pay any remainder fare is not available and issued us an incident report. We apologised and cooperated with providing personal information.


Being new to the UK, we use bus services for most of our daily travel and have only accessed railway services occasionally. I understand that this is no excuse for our actions and accept full responsibility. Since the issuance of the incident report, we have taken this opportunity to educate ourselves on the importance of having a valid ticket as well as legal importance and associated consequences of not upholding railway laws in addition to the financial burden railway companies incur due to inconveniences caused by considerable cases including that of myself.


I have never been involved in an incident like this before and it is my first time communicating with DRPU. Therefore, I would like to sincerely apologise for careless failure in ensuring correct authorized train service is used for which a valid ticket is held. To ensure this will never happen again, I will practice great caution before boarding designated trains for all future travels. I have learnt a crucial life lesson from this incident and I strongly intend to never allow this to ever repeat again in the future.


I sincerely apologise for my actions and to demonstrate my genuine remorse and commitment to making amends, I would be very grateful if you would kindly allow me to pay the full outstanding fare, along with any administrative fees and additional compensation you may deem appropriate and an opportunity to settle this matter without court action, with an out of court settlement. Please be assured I am keen to offer my full co-operation and I am prepared to cover whatever costs Northern have incurred.


Thanking you for your kind consideration. I am looking forward to hearing from you.


Yours sincerely,