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Northern trains to Nottingham should be longer

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sprinterguy

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All Northerns profits go to Holland, hence no money for new stock.
Don’t blame the parent company, blame the structure of railway privatisation in the UK. It wouldn’t matter if Northern Rail was run by some sort of fictional uber-British consortium, the way the financing structure of rail franchising works means that you still wouldn’t see any greater investment in the operation than we do at present.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
About three years procurement process, another 3 years building !!!
Or about 18 months from DfT speculation to first train delivered if you want Electrostars (Granted, not much use on most Northern Rail routes, but proof that train procurement doesn't have to be such a long winded process).
 
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northwichcat

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Once Manchester-York is electrified you could have 6 car 185s running Liverpool-Nottingham and 4 car 158s running Norwich-Sheffield-Leeds. Whether DfT will go for the latter is a different question.

Out of interest how many people didn't get a seat on the 2 car Nottingham-Leeds services? A 2 car 158 is supposed to be able to carry 51 standees at peak times before it's classed as overcrowded (provided people don't have to stand for more than 20 minutes.)
 
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sprinterguy

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Are you naturally abusive or do you have to work at it. The chap just made a statement as all of us in the North are getting a little ****ed off travelling in crush loaded conditions or being left behind on platforms due to short formed trains that should have been scrapped ten years ago. They are becoming unreliable due to over intensity of use but are bravely being turned out by depots day after day (usually) only through dedication of the fitters.
Compared to what it was even 10 – 12 years ago – as thenorthern has described, essentially non-existant - the Leeds to Nottingham service has gone from strength to strength in recent years. Agreeing with the points that you have made, if anything it is a victim of its own success.

I would also agree that the procurement of new trains need not be as difficult as is sometimes made out on here.
 

northwichcat

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Sheffield to Nottingham used to be one two-coach train per hour (EMT from Liverpool to Norwich).

Since Central got 170s there's always been some Sheffield-Nottingham services which have operated as 3 or more cars. OK in the early days of the EMT franchise there weren't many 4 car workings but it certainly wasn't a 2 car train every hour.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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That Northern run a Sheffield-Nottingham service at all is down to the SRA.
The old MML franchise wanted to extend St Pancras-Nottingham services to Leeds via Wakefield Westgate, and ordered Class 222 Meridians to do it.
The SRA then said there were better uses for the 222s and refused the (by then) EMT plans.
Instead they asked Northern to fill the gap by extending Leeds-Barnsley-Sheffield to Nottingham, a much cheaper option.
Where the measly 3% franchise profit goes is irrelevant.
It's where the much larger subsidy (currently 55% according to the franchise prospectus) goes that's important.
 

scarby

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Incredible that a rail industry that must have produced literally thousands of new DMUs, EMUs, carriages and locomotives in the space of just a few years from the mid-1950s to early 1960s, all (as far as I know) built in Britain as well, can't, half a century on, rustle up a few new DMUs to strengthen overcrowded services.
 
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Since Langley Mill was transferred to Northern I have suffered from a much more reliable service with a greater chance of a seat. I have not been left stranded at Langley Mill for hours like when EMT/Central Trains provided the mainstay.
Yes out of Sheffield at rush hour is full but I've always got a seat by Dronfield.
Been a vast improvement on what was previously on offer.
Don't see the need for any extra coach capacity personally.
 

thenorthern

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Incredible that a rail industry that must have produced literally thousands of new DMUs, EMUs, carriages and locomotives in the space of just a few years from the mid-1950s to early 1960s, all (as far as I know) built in Britain as well, can't, half a century on, rustle up a few new DMUs to strengthen overcrowded services.

The problem is most trains are only overcrowded at certain times of the day but empty at other times. Its not just the North of England in the South East trains get very very overcrowded as well probably more than Northern Rail. Its not realistic to have trains bringing round fresh air for most of the day while people are at work.

At the end of the day as well Northern Rail have possibly the cheapest fares in the country and I would rather have cheaper fares than newer train.

I know people are going to point out Northern Rail's subsidy from the treasury but remember although they operate lucrative Manchester, Liverpool, West Yorkshire, Newcastle and Sheffield commutes they also operate many unprofitable rural branch lines such as Helsby to Ellesmere Port, Whitby Branch Line, Chathill train, Settle and Carlisle Line, Leeds to Morecambe and many others. Many of these are long and carry very few passengers and would be closed if it wasn't for their subsidies.
 

deltic08

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Does it matter where the profits go? Any profits made are fairly small when compared to (a) the subsidy required to keep Northern going and (b) the cost of all of the "magic wand" improvements that people on here want to make to services.)

What a ridiculous comment. Privatised railways as we all know costs the tax payer £4billion annually, twice as much at todays money than a nationalised railway would cost due to profits creamed off for TOC and ROSCO shareholders mostly in foreign countries. Money totally lost to the economy of this country. Even talking of small profits would be better being put back into rolling stock shortages than into foreign shareholder pockets.

Branson declared on television immediately after the franchise spat with First that he would operate Virgin trains without profit until a new franchise was awarded on West Coast. He certainly hasn't done what he promised. He personally takes £24m annually from Virgin trains just for use of that silly Virgin logo on each carriage. At 10% of the award, he will be doing exactly the same with the East Coast franchise. Ultimately that comes from us the fare payer. Fares are 30% higher under a privatised railway than would have been under British Rail.

ROSCOs are making £millions out of leasing Pacers. Use of Pacers under a nationalised railway would be putting all profit from these trains back into new trains or completely writing them down as they have paid for themselves many times over. They were probably at that stage in the ten years after introduction when sold to ROSCOs in 1995 for peanuts but money for them went straight to the Treasury and not the railways.
 
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Wolfie

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Are you naturally abusive or do you have to work at it. The chap just made a statement as all of us in the North are getting a little ****ed off travelling in crush loaded conditions or being left behind on platforms due to short formed trains that should have been scrapped ten years ago. They are becoming unreliable due to over intensity of use but are bravely being turned out by depots day after day (usually) only through dedication of the fitters. But of course this is the plan together with above inflation fare increases to choke off demand and growth.

While some (not all) of the rolling stock is newer in the South East the reality is that there are far more crush loaded services than in the North. Above inflation rises have been the norm in London since the mid 1980s! They have helped to pay for some of the investment in the tube/rail network. Why exactly do you think the massively heavily subsidised (cue all the usual excuses!) North should be exempt?

£1.3 billion for a tunnel under Stonehenge, again big bucks projects in the South of England, would have bought a lot of electrification or new DMUs for local journeys the North.

Talk about scraping the barrel in order to inform the same old whines! Conflating Stonehenge, which is in the South West, with London and the South East..... You know the same South West where FGW still operate Pacers (143s) and were so desperate for rolling stock that they took the two non-standard 150 prototypes...

If every thread is going to be the same old whinges then this forum will rapidly lose its appeal.

Where the measly 3% franchise profit goes is irrelevant.
It's where the much larger subsidy (currently 55% according to the franchise prospectus) goes that's important.

The elephant in the room which carefully gets ignored in the incessant whining....

Or about 18 months from DfT speculation to first train delivered if you want Electrostars (Granted, not much use on most Northern Rail routes, but proof that train procurement doesn't have to be such a long winded process).

Which, like the 350s which went to TPE, were got as an option to an extant order.... please remind me how many extant DMU contracts there are out there with options available for use in such a manner...
 
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fowler9

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In my opinion it should be a service not a business. Who cares if the trains carry fresh air. Unless we want to concrete over the entire country and put everyone in cars.
 

yorksrob

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Where the measly 3% franchise profit goes is irrelevant.
It's where the much larger subsidy (currently 55% according to the franchise prospectus) goes that's important.

I'd rather have a 55% subsidy that goes on running trains, than a "measly" 3% profit that doesn't.
 

Wolfie

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In my opinion it should be a service not a business. Who cares if the trains carry fresh air. Unless we want to concrete over the entire country and put everyone in cars.

The taxpayers of this country do not all share the obsessions of some on this forum with all things railway. Trains carrying fresh air, schools or the NHS? That is the sort of choices being made... and NO I would not pay 1p more tax to satisfy your desires!

I'd rather have a 55% subsidy that goes on running trains, than a "measly" 3% profit that doesn't.

BUT most areas of the country don't have anything like such a figure. There are many hopelessly uneconomic lines in Northern's area and until the bullet is bitten and some of them shut (another elephant in the room!) investment will inevitably be constrained.
 
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fowler9

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The taxpayers of this country do not all share the obsessions of some on this forum with all things railway. Trains carrying fresh air, schools or the NHS? That is the sort of choices being made... and NO I would not pay 1p more tax to satisfy your desires!

Put everyone in cars then? The railways are a social service. I need them to get to work on early shifts. If I don't get to work then people in the armed forces don't get their emergencies sorted. There is a much broader impact on society than the 1p you don't want to pay.
 

northwichcat

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BUT most areas of the country don't have anything like such a figure. There are many hopelessly uneconomic lines in Northern's area and until the bullet is bitten and some of them shut (another elephant in the room!) investment will inevitably be constrained.

One problem is there are many token services e.g. Helsby-Ellesmere Port which aren't that useful for passengers. Even re-timing the services to be at useful times for commuters isn't possible due to the stock being needed elsewhere at peak times. In some cases a regular service may bring in as much revenue as on other lines. However, to prove that money is needed for feasibility reports and without those feasibility reports a good case can't be put forward for closing the line either.
 

deltic08

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The problem is most trains are only overcrowded at certain times of the day but empty at other times. Its not just the North of England in the South East trains get very very overcrowded as well probably more than Northern Rail. Its not realistic to have trains bringing round fresh air for most of the day while people are at work.

At the end of the day as well Northern Rail have possibly the cheapest fares in the country and I would rather have cheaper fares than newer train.

I know people are going to point out Northern Rail's subsidy from the treasury but remember although they operate lucrative Manchester, Liverpool, West Yorkshire, Newcastle and Sheffield commutes they also operate many unprofitable rural branch lines such as Helsby to Ellesmere Port, Whitby Branch Line, Chathill train, Settle and Carlisle Line, Leeds to Morecambe and many others. Many of these are long and carry very few passengers and would be closed if it wasn't for their subsidies.

So would LUL.
 

Wolfie

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So would LUL.


Your comment carefully ignores the number of passengers of course. LUL is jammed, parts of Northern could be operated with a Transit van!

Disregading that, the amount of income tax flow that there is from London to the rest of the country and the consequences on London's competitiveness of such a proposal, means that there is every chance that so would the North full stop if your proposal went ahead!

Put everyone in cars then? The railways are a social service. I need them to get to work on early shifts. If I don't get to work then people in the armed forces don't get their emergencies sorted. There is a much broader impact on society than the 1p you don't want to pay.

I work for MOD myself. That does not mean I should subsidise, to an unlimited amount, your travel to work!

One problem is there are many token services e.g. Helsby-Ellesmere Port which aren't that useful for passengers. Even re-timing the services to be at useful times for commuters isn't possible due to the stock being needed elsewhere at peak times. In some cases a regular service may bring in as much revenue as on other lines. However, to prove that money is needed for feasibility reports and without those feasibility reports a good case can't be put forward for closing the line either.

Now that sadly, working in the public sector in rather too close proximity to politicians, I can wholly believe!
 
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deltic08

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While some (not all) of the rolling stock is newer in the South East the reality is that there are far more crush loaded services than in the North. Above inflation rises have been the norm in London since the mid 1980s! They have helped to pay for some of the investment in the tube/rail network. Why exactly do you think the massively heavily subsidised (cue all the usual excuses!) North should be exempt?



Talk about scraping the barrel in order to inform the same old whines! Conflating Stonehenge, which is in the South West, with London and the South East..... You know the same South West where FGW still operate Pacers (143s) and were so desperate for rolling stock that they took the two non-standard 150 prototypes...

If every thread is going to be the same old whinges then this forum will rapidly lose its appeal.



The elephant in the room which carefully gets ignored in the incessant whining....



Which, like the 350s which went to TPE, were got as an option to an extant order.... please remind me how many extant DMU contracts there are out there with options available for use in such a manner...

Since when has Wiltshire been in the South West. Is Swindon Southwest? Stonehenge is no more southwest than Southampton or Bournemouth. Southwest of London yes but not in the Southwest. Devon and Cornwall are laughing their heads off.
 

fowler9

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Your comment carefully ignores the number of passengers of course. LUL is jammed, parts of Northern could be operated with a Transit van!

Disregading that, the amount of income tax flow that there is from London to the rest of the country and the consequences on London's competitiveness of such a proposal, means that there is every chance that so would the North full stop if your proposal went ahead!



I work for MOD myself. That does not mean I should subsidise, to an unlimited amount, your travel to work!



Now that sadly, working in the public sector in rather too close proximity to politicians, I can wholly believe!

Well would you rather price me out of work and have me claim benefits or have me and everyone else move to the south east. What is it you want? Northern Rail covers a huge area with many unprofitable routes. You can subsidise it or you can have everyone live around London in rabbit hutch accomodation with all of the associated problems.
 

Wolfie

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Since when has Wiltshire been in the South West. Is Swindon Southwest? Stonehenge is no more southwest than Southampton or Bournemouth. Southwest of London yes but not in the Southwest. Devon and Cornwall are laughing their heads off.

Wiltshire may be the eastern-most part of the South West but it very definitely is in the South West! I bet you would try and argue that Gloucestershire was in the Midlands too...

http://www.google.co.uk/url?url=htt...MQFjAK&usg=AFQjCNGwz_wE0_DwNyCAt_EuA-LWXJzI8A

http://www.swtourismalliance.org.uk/

Links especially chosen given you citing Stonehenge!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Well would you rather price me out of work and have me claim benefits or have me and everyone else move to the south east. What is it you want? Northern Rail covers a huge area with many unprofitable routes. You can subsidise it or you can have everyone live around London in rabbit hutch accomodation with all of the associated problems.

I neither wish to price you out of work nor to give you a massive life-style subsidy. Northern's extant heavy subsidies and in many areas artificially low fares are bad enough, but Oliver Twist-like demands for more are an unfunny joke.
 
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fowler9

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Wiltshire may be the eastern-most part of the South West but it very definitely is in the South West! I bet you would try and argue that Gloucestershire was in the Midlands too...

http://www.google.co.uk/url?url=htt...MQFjAK&usg=AFQjCNGwz_wE0_DwNyCAt_EuA-LWXJzI8A

http://www.swtourismalliance.org.uk/

Links especially chosen given you citing Stonehenge!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I neither wish to price you out of work nor to give you a massive life-style subsidy. Northern's extant heavy subsidies and in many areas artificially low fares are bad enough, but Oliver Twist-like demands for more are an unfunny joke.

A massive lifestyle subsidy! What would that be? The lifestyle of living in Liverpool and not being able to afford to relocate? You make it sound like the countries economy was my choice and I have more than a tiny input to this. Oliver Twist like! Remember I work, I pay tax at the same rate as everyone else, I pay for you aswell!
 

deltic08

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Your comment carefully ignores the number of passengers of course. LUL is jammed, parts of Northern could be operated with a Transit van!

Disregading that, the amount of income tax flow that there is from London to the rest of the country and the consequences on London's competitiveness of such a proposal, means that there is every chance that so would the North full stop if your proposal went ahead!!

Be that as it may but LUL is subsidised by roughly £4billion annually. That is NINE times more per head than the Northern franchise and don't forget £8billion for Thameslink, £15billion for Crossrail, £1billion LUL extension to Battersea, £2billion already spent on Crossrail2 and £178 millions for M25 improvements much more than spend in the regions for road improvements in todays Autumn Statement.

Let me remind you that twice as many taxpayers live in the Liverpool-Manchester-Leeds-Hull corridor than live in London and you have the audacity to imply tax flows from London to this region. Leeds and Manchester are faster growing financial centres than London.

Re assess your argument with facts and come back.
 
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Wolfie

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Be that as it may but LUL is subsidised by roughly £4billion annually. That is NINE times more per head than the Northern franchise and don't forget £8billion for Thameslink, £15billion for Crossrail, £1billion LUL extension to Battersea, £2billion already spent on Crossrail2 and £178 millions for M25 improvements much more than spend in the regions for road improvements in todays Autumn Statement.

Let me remind you that twice as many taxpayers live in the Liverpool-Manchester-Leeds-Hull corridor than live in London and you have the audacity to imply tax flows from London to this region. Leeds and Manchester are faster growing financial centres than London.

Re assess your argument with facts and come back.

Your investment quotes are at best disingenuous and at worst downright deceptive (indeed neo-Gobbelsesque!) with their implication that all of the investment is being funded by the UK taxpayer which is complete bull as has been stated repeatedly on here.

"The full cost of the Northern line extension is expected to be up to £1bn, which is being funded entirely through contributions from the developments in the area that will benefit from the extension. An innovative funding package has been agreed between the Mayor of London and Government, which includes the creation of an Enterprise Zone from 2016 for a period of 25 years. The Greater London Authority will be putting forward a funding package shortly for the £1bn needed to deliver the extension." (source TfL)

"In April 2010, the Mayor introduced a levy of 2p on non-domestic properties with a rateable value of over £55,000 in London. This will help pay for Crossrail, a vital new east-west train link that will provide a major boost to London's economy.
The GLA is expected to contribute around £4.1bn of its agreed contribution to the £15.9 billion Crossrail project using income generated from a new business rates supplement." (source the GLA)

That's without trying too hard! Give me one similar example for the rest of the country... but in your bilge above you actually have the gall to moan at money being raised in London for specific purposes actually being used for those purposes - there's an appropriate Northern phrase "brass neck"!

I am increasingly in favour of Boris/London politician's aspirations ot have more control fo London's business rate and income tax take. Believe me if that happens London will do quite nicely thank you, I'm not so sure about the rest of the country though....

Oh, and I don't have time now but you taxpayer arguement needs a response involving basic statistics and some evidence of respective incomes... clue minimum/low wage zero hours contract types don't pay much income tax!

Growth rates... look at the baseline lol
 
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deltic08

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Wiltshire may be the eastern-most part of the South West but it very definitely is in the South West! I bet you would try and argue that Gloucestershire was in the Midlands too....

Yup. Being born and bred in Gloucestershire I do know enough to argue it is a border County. To the North and East of Gloucester is definitely Midlands bordering on Worcestershire and almost Warwickshire. Midland Red buses used to run from Birmingham via Stratford and Worcester as far south as Gloucester. East of the County on the Cotswolds bordering Warwickshire/Oxforshire I have no idea what they would class themselves as becoming more and more London commuters by M4, via Kemble station or Cotswold Line causing a huge unwelcomed rise in property prices. South of the Severn estuary definitely aligns with Wiltshire and what was Somerset, now South Gloucestershire, but regard themselves as West Country NOT Southwest. My part of Gloucestershire, northwest of the natural barrier of the Severn estuary is neither as we align with Wales and the Welsh Borders. More people commute to Chepstow, Newport and Cardiff than to Gloucester or Cheltenham and since opening of the Severn road bridge in 1966 to Bristol over the bridge or through Severn Tunnel by train.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Your investment quotes are at best disingenuous and at worst downright deceptive (indeed neo-Gobbelsesque!) with their implication that all of the investment is being funded by the UK taxpayer which is complete bull as has been stated repeatedly on here.

"The full cost of the Northern line extension is expected to be up to £1bn, which is being funded entirely through contributions from the developments in the area that will benefit from the extension. An innovative funding package has been agreed between the Mayor of London and Government, which includes the creation of an Enterprise Zone from 2016 for a period of 25 years. The Greater London Authority will be putting forward a funding package shortly for the £1bn needed to deliver the extension." (source TfL)

"In April 2010, the Mayor introduced a levy of 2p on non-domestic properties with a rateable value of over £55,000 in London. This will help pay for Crossrail, a vital new east-west train link that will provide a major boost to London's economy.
The GLA is expected to contribute around £4.1bn of its agreed contribution to the £15.9 billion Crossrail project using income generated from a new business rates supplement." (source the GLA)

That's without trying too hard! Give me one similar example for the rest of the country... but in your bilge above you actually have the gall to moan at money being raised in London for specific purposes actually being used for those purposes - there's an appropriate Northern phrase "brass neck"!

I am increasingly in favour of Boris/London politician's aspirations ot have more control fo London's business rate and income tax take. Believe me if that happens London will do quite nicely thank you, I'm not so sure about the rest of the country though....

Oh, and I don't have time now but you taxpayer arguement needs a response involving basic statistics and some evidence of respective incomes... clue minimum/low wage zero hours contract types don't pay much income tax!

Growth rates... look at the baseline lol

What is all this silly southern lol crap. Are you a sheep in Wolfies clothing?

My quotes are not disingenuous, they are fact and didn't imply anything. It still involves taxpayers money. Just because they are part funded by business does not make it less of a fact. I notice you do not question Thameslink so £8billion must be wholly taxpayer funded. It is still giving London lots of shiny new carriages at £1.5billion that the North is not getting. We are grateful for more electrification though.

Battersea extension was still authorised and underwritten by the Government at the outset with taxpayers money for the planning stage. London is the last place that should be given unfair advantage of an Enterprise zone. These are for places struggling in the Regions. And you question whinging from the North with decisions like this.

£4billion towards £15billion for Crossrail2 is no more than the amount local authorities have to contribute towards large projects. North Yorkshire County Council is contributing £6m towards a £32m bypass. They have contributed £11m towards £27m improvements to the Harrogate-York line.

I am all for you going with Boris and asking for higher London business rates. I assume you are not in business with that attitude. This will just make the North more competitive.

We can't all live in London even if we wanted to. I was fortunate enough to be able to work in any city in the world after graduating from a six year university degree. I chose Leeds as I could live in rural Yorkshire. I would not want to live within 200 miles of London, but should not be penalised for it because Yorkshire is not London. I am penalised as my property wealth is a mere fraction of similar properties in London compared to when I bought it in 1972. We are talking £millions at to-days prices and all the fault of successive Governments allowing London to become out of control but you do not hear me whinge about that.

Railways are a different matter as it is a service industry and we should have the same quality of service as the Southeast. Even the Scots feel sorry for Northern England since the referendum. There is another Northern phrase.....selfish Southern greed.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
A massive lifestyle subsidy! What would that be? The lifestyle of living in Liverpool and not being able to afford to relocate? You make it sound like the countries economy was my choice and I have more than a tiny input to this. Oliver Twist like! Remember I work, I pay tax at the same rate as everyone else, I pay for you aswell!

Well done that man. You tell them how it is.
 
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Wolfie

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Yup. Being born and bred in Gloucestershire I do know enough to argue it is a border County. To the North and East of Gloucester is definitely Midlands bordering on Worcestershire and almost Warwickshire. Midland Red buses used to run from Birmingham via Stratford and Worcester as far south as Gloucester. East of the County on the Cotswolds bordering Warwickshire/Oxforshire I have no idea what they would class themselves as becoming more and more London commuters by M4, via Kemble station or Cotswold Line causing a huge unwelcomed rise in property prices. South of the Severn estuary definitely aligns with Wiltshire and what was Somerset, now South Gloucestershire, but regard themselves as West Country NOT Southwest. My part of Gloucestershire, northwest of the natural barrier of the Severn estuary is neither as we align with Wales and the Welsh Borders. More people commute to Chepstow, Newport and Cardiff than to Gloucester or Cheltenham and since opening of the Severn road bridge in 1966 to Bristol over the bridge or through Severn Tunnel by train.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


What is all this silly southern lol crap. Are you a sheep in Wolfies clothing?

My quotes are not disingenuous, they are fact and didn't imply anything. It still involves taxpayers money. Just because they are part funded by business does not make it less of a fact. I notice you do not question Thameslink so £8billion must be wholly taxpayer funded. It is still giving London lots of shiny new carriages at £1.5billion that the North is not getting. We are grateful for more electrification though.

Battersea extension was still authorised and underwritten by the Government at the outset with taxpayers money for the planning stage. London is the last place that should be given unfair advantage of an Enterprise zone. These are for places struggling in the Regions. And you question whinging from the North with decisions like this.

£4billion towards £15billion for Crossrail2 is no more than the amount local authorities have to contribute towards large projects. North Yorkshire County Council is contributing £6m towards a £32m bypass. They have contributed £11m towards £27m improvements to the Harrogate-York line.

I am all for you going with Boris and asking for higher London business rates. I assume you are not in business with that attitude. This will just make the North more competitive.

We can't all live in London even if we wanted to. I was fortunate enough to be able to work in any city in the world after graduating from a six year university degree. I chose Leeds as I could live in rural Yorkshire. I would not want to live within 200 miles of London, but should not be penalised for it because Yorkshire is not London. I am penalised as my property wealth is a mere fraction of similar properties in London compared to when I bought it in 1972. We are talking £millions at to-days prices and all the fault of successive Governments allowing London to become out of control but you do not hear me whinge about that.

Railways are a different matter as it is a service industry and we should have the same quality of service as the Southeast. Even the Scots feel sorry for Northern England since the referendum. There is another Northern phrase.....selfish Southern greed.

Compare other service industries. You get the same level of service if it is economic and you pay the same. In the North fares are relatively low, subsidies enormous (for very few, relatively speaking, actual passengers) and yet massive investment is also requested. Other service industries would consider such a scenario economically unviable.

Oh and Boris doesn't want higher London business rates he wants control of (at least more of) the extant ones rather than the money subbing Birmingham, Manchester etc. Time for Manchester business to subsidise local services as London business has fin London or years...

The thing that you need to realise is that London does not regard Manchester or Birmingham as rivals but Frankfurt, Paris, New York...

London is reasonably unique (although Paris is similar) in having the political and financial heart of a country in the same city. You could move Parliament and all of Government out of London with really impacting on its importance to the rest of the country.
 
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Haydn1971

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Low fares ? It's £27 for me to travel return to Manchester from Sheffield, do a similar cross London trip to Heathrow and back (zone 6) is capped at £15:80 - I'd be lucky to get a return pair of "cheap singles" for £20 on TPE
 

fowler9

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There are certain people in this country who have created these wealth and employement gaps and are now moaning about having to pay for it. Part of the reason the economy is so good in the South East is that the North and other areas got rode roughshod over. The south east is doing well because of economic policies that favoured the area. As I said before I pay my tax in the same bands as everyone else, in fact my council tax is bloody high. I expect the same service as someone in London.
 

northwichcat

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Low fares ? It's £27 for me to travel return to Manchester from Sheffield, do a similar cross London trip to Heathrow and back (zone 6) is capped at £15:80 - I'd be lucky to get a return pair of "cheap singles" for £20 on TPE

probably the cheapest journey I can make from my local station (Knutsford) in terms of pence per mile is to London Euston if I get the cheapest Advance tickets. I can buy an Advance single to London Euston (around 200 miles) for £14, if I want an Anytime Return to Chester (under 25 miles) I pay £14.30 with no Advances available.

It seems if you want to go somewhere from the North for a low price then you get the train to London!
 

QJ

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Basingstoke Down Yard
It seems if you want to go somewhere from the North for a low price then you get the train to London!

And if you want to go somewhere from the south for a low price then you get the train up north! (ps Quite handy as most railtours that are of any interest start from somewhere up North).

All you northern people stop bleating about how down trodden you are. Where is your entreprenuerial spirit these days? Work together and re-create the regional powerhouse you once were instead of slagging off us poor southerners that look on with envy at your cost of living.
 
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455driver

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Are you naturally abusive or do you have to work at it.
It comes naturally, thanks for the interest! ;)
The chap just made a statement as all of us in the North are getting a little ****ed off travelling in crush loaded conditions or being left behind on platforms due to short formed trains that should have been scrapped ten years ago. They are becoming unreliable due to over intensity of use but are bravely being turned out by depots day after day (usually) only through dedication of the fitters. But of course this is the plan together with above inflation fare increases to choke off demand and growth.
Agree 100% with this!
Oh us doon Sarf are fed up with crush loaded trains as well, even at 1300 on a weekday people are having to squeeze onto trains because they are rammed, as short of rolling stock the North is the South West is just as desperate!
£1.3 billion for a tunnel under Stonehenge, again big bucks projects in the South of England, would have bought a lot of electrification or new DMUs for local journeys the North.
And this, what a complete waste of money, just dual the existing road!
 
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