Northern to introduce evening peak restrictions

[bb21]

These two are classed as "boundary stations" for ticketing purposes. Both South Yorkshire and West Yorkshire tickets are valid there so in turns respective restrictions apply. Journeys from eg. Moorthorpe, to Leeds are priced by Metro whereas journeys to Sheffield are priced by SYPTE.

Cross-boundary journeys are priced by Northern and don't have evening restrictions applied (with certain exceptions).

 

[trainophile]

Where does yer average punter like me go to find out what lies in which PTE area? While I'm asking, what is a PTE area?

 

[button_boxer]

Where does yer average punter like me go to find out what lies in which PTE area? While I'm asking, what is a PTE area?

In this context it means the areas covered by Transport for Greater Manchester, the South Yorkshire PTE and West Yorkshire Metro. The maps on Northern's site are probably the clearest indicators of what stations are considered to be in which area.

 

[muz379]

Where does yer average punter like me go to find out what lies in which PTE area? While I'm asking, what is a PTE area?

Passenger Transport Executive . its a local government body that is responsible for public transport in the areas it covers . They do stuff like regulation , specify timetable requirements, subsidize some providings etc etc .

The best way to find out the areas covered would be to go on their website and look at the maps that are on there .

 

[table38]

One thing I am finding it difficult to understand is break of journey.

Say I do the Real Ale Trail on a Friday afternoon on a Stalybridge to Dewsbury off peak day return.

I know I am OK between Huddersfield and Stalybridge after 16:01 because my journey is not entirely within either the West Yorks and/or Greater Manchester PTE areas (because of the "expensive tunnel" between Marsden and Greenfield which is in neither )

But say I want to stop off for another pint or three, and I want to do Huddersfield to Slaithwaite, or Slathwaite, to Marsden (or for that matter, Greenfield to Mossley or Mossley to Stalybridge) between 16:01 and 17:59?

The Northern web site says:

What happens if…:
…I start my journey in the affected area before 16.01 but have to change trains in the affected area after 16.01?

You can still travel on an off-peak ticket for the first part of your journey, but you will need to have an anytime fare or equivalent for the second leg of your journey.​

Which makes me think it would be forbidden incur an additional charge?

 

[adrock1976]

Passenger Transport Executives are found in the 6 areas of England that became Metropolitan Counties back in 1974 e.g West Midlands (from parts of Warwickshire, Worcestershire, and Staffordshire), Merseyside (from south west Lancashire and north west Cheshire), Greater Manchester (from SELNEC - South East Lancashire and North East Cheshire), West Yorkshire (most of the then West Riding plus Bradford), South Yorkshire (parts of the old West Riding and North Yorkshire), and Tyne & Wear (from part of Northumberland and part of County Durham).

Scotland has a seventh PTE area - Strathclyde. This covers Lanarkshire, Dunbartonshire, Ayrshire, Renfrewshire, and Inverclyde as well as the city of Glasgow.

This may explain how you sometimes see the traditional postal counties in mailing addresses, such as Stockport, Cheshire; Sunderland, County Durham; Bolton, Lancashire. For London you may sometimes see Croydon, Surrey; Ilford, Essex; and Uxbridge, Middlesex.

In peace

Adam

 

[button_boxer]

But say I want to stop off for another pint or three, and I want to do Huddersfield to Slaithwaite, or Slathwaite, to Marsden (or for that matter, Greenfield to Mossley or Mossley to Stalybridge) between 16:01 and 17:59?

The thing that decides what restrictions apply to your ticket is the restriction code of the ticket in question, nothing else. If the ticket has a restriction code that permits break of journey and allows the ticket to be used during the evening peak then it's valid.

Stalybridge to Dewsbury Off-Peak Day Return has the restriction code I2:

OUTWARD TRAVEL
By any train except those
timed to depart Mondays to
Fridays before 0915

RETURN TRAVEL
By any train

so you're fine to break your journey any number of times in either or both directions, as long as you don't travel before 0915 on a weekday.

It's no different from buying a ticket from Poynton to Manchester (restriction B1, no travel before 0930) and using it to travel from Bramhall instead (the Bramhall to Manchester ticket being code ND and subject to evening peak restrictions).

 

[IanD]

One thing I am finding it difficult to understand is break of journey.

Say I do the Real Ale Trail on a Friday afternoon on a Stalybridge to Dewsbury off peak day return.

I know I am OK between Huddersfield and Stalybridge after 16:01 because my journey is not entirely within either the West Yorks and/or Greater Manchester PTE areas (because of the "expensive tunnel" between Marsden and Greenfield which is in neither )

But say I want to stop off for another pint or three, and I want to do Huddersfield to Slaithwaite, or Slathwaite, to Marsden (or for that matter, Greenfield to Mossley or Mossley to Stalybridge) between 16:01 and 17:59?

The Northern web site says:



Which makes me think it would be forbidden incur an additional charge?

The Stalybridge to Dewsbury off peak day is valid on any train after 0915 on the outward journey and is unrestricted on the return so isn't affected by these changes therefore you should be allowed to stop off for as many pints as you like during the new evening peak.

 

[table38]

That's great, thanks both of you!

 

[trainophile]

And another Thanks - for all the info. re. PTEs. For some reason my subscription to this thread got cancelled so I wasn't aware of the new replies since I posted. Really useful details there, I'll keep them for reference!

 

[Starmill]

It's like bashing your head against a brick wall. Man has Manchester Stations <> Leeds Off-Peak Day Return, which TPE have the audacity to charge all of £18.80 for - which is far from good value - and then have the guard tell the passenger that because it is an Off-Peak DAY ticket, it is not valid between 1600 and 1830. The man replied that the ticket machine said it could be used to return by any train the same day after 0930, but the guard was adamant this was not the case, but that there was an amnesty on this until October, because it was a "Northern initiative and we followed suit". The temptation to intervene was almost overwhelming, as I could see very clearly what this guys ticket was and had heard what I thought was all of their conversation. Sadly, I did not.

 

[table38]

Can they look up restrictions on their Avantix?

(So like button_boxer and IanD suggested for me, if I got challenged, could I suggest the guard compares the restrictions for (say) a Dewsbury to Huddersfield off-peak day return, and a Dewsbury to Stalybridge off-peak day return?)

 

[Starmill]

A good question, and one I don't know the answer to. But there was no doubt in the mind of the guard, and as they weren't charging anyone, no measure of insistence from the passenger. That doesn't make it OK that people are so obviously misinformed.

 

[RJ]

Can they look up restrictions on their Avantix?

(So like button_boxer and IanD suggested for me, if I got challenged, could I suggest the guard compares the restrictions for (say) a Dewsbury to Huddersfield off-peak day return, and a Dewsbury to Stalybridge off-peak day return?)

Yes, restriction text can be checked on an Avantix easily. However, for this to be of any use, this would require the member of staff selling/checking tickets on a daily basis to understand how off peak restrictions work.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Caution needs to be applied to that approach. Burscough Bridge to Manchester STNs is not within a PTE area yet is affected.

Is it also the case of Alderley Edge in Cheshire East is another such a non-PTE affected area where Manchester STNs is involved ?

I am aware of that, but there are very few exceptions in general, so as a basic rule of thumb it is ok.

Perhaps I should have said "Does the journey start and finish entirely within the same PTE area, including one of the few local stations outside with are included".
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It's like bashing your head against a brick wall. Man has Manchester Stations <> Leeds Off-Peak Day Return, which TPE have the audacity to charge all of £18.80 for - which is far from good value - and then have the guard tell the passenger that because it is an Off-Peak DAY ticket, it is not valid between 1600 and 1830. The man replied that the ticket machine said it could be used to return by any train the same day after 0930, but the guard was adamant this was not the case, but that there was an amnesty on this until October, because it was a "Northern initiative and we followed suit". The temptation to intervene was almost overwhelming, as I could see very clearly what this guys ticket was and had heard what I thought was all of their conversation. Sadly, I did not.

There have been many briefings, some very simple indeed, indeed the most recent one gives specific examples and says whether they carry restrictions or not. But STILL, despite all this some colleagues simply do not understand either because they are too thick or don't care. Much, I suspect, is the former.

Can they look up restrictions on their Avantix?

Yes. Easily.

Yes, restriction text can be checked on an Avantix easily. However, for this to be of any use, this would require the member of staff selling/checking tickets on a daily basis to understand how off peak restrictions work.

And that is the problem, many do not for the reasons I have given above.

 

[spargazer]

I travel to Leeds about four times a year and after reading these articles I now use my car, at least I know it is cheaper.

 

[Deerfold]

I travel to Leeds about four times a year and after reading these articles I now use my car, at least I know it is cheaper.

Well done.

Hard for us to be able to agree or disagree as we have no idea where you're coming from or when you're doing it.

 

[InstantStation]

I think a large part of the problem is the use of one terminology "Off Peak" across different contexts. This is a consequence, ironically, of "simplification" a few years back. Previously we had long distance "Savers" and "SuperSavers" (still remembered sort-of as "Super Off Peak" in some cases).

Why not have a new name, like "UrbanSaver" for Off Peak tickets in PTE and associated areas? Then, traditional "Off Peak" tickets would simply be unavailable in the restricted zones, replaced by their UrbanSaver new counterparts. The evening peak restrictions could be updated to refer explicitly to these new urban tickets, whilst exempting any "Off Peak" tickets that happened to be held for journeys in the area (which would by definition have been issued from or to stations further afield).

"Simples!"[TM] (with due acknowledgements to the Meerkats and their sponsors).

 

[bb21]

Ah yes but you would then be undoing all the hard work of "simplification" by introducing new names.

Doncha know that simplication was one of the best things to happen to the ticketing system ever?

 

[yorkie]

Why not have a new name, like "UrbanSaver" for Off Peak tickets in PTE and associated areas? Then, traditional "Off Peak" tickets would simply be unavailable in the restricted zones, replaced by their UrbanSaver new counterparts. The evening peak restrictions could be updated to refer explicitly to these new urban tickets, whilst exempting any "Off Peak" tickets that happened to be held for journeys in the area (which would by definition have been issued from or to stations further afield).

This is too complicated, it needs to be simple

Apparently "ticket terms and conditions are now the same across all train companies nationwide, so you know exactly where you stand".

And "the new fare names describe when you can buy or use your ticket, making it easier for you to decide what ticket suits your journey".

We all know that Off Peak fares for longer journeys are often less restrictive than for shorter journeys (the protected ex-Saver fares can't be restricted in the evening due to legislation - though some TOCs such as Virgin have breached the legislation previously), however the rail industry denies this, and claims "Where there is more than one Off-Peak fare for a journey, the cheaper fare with more restrictions will be named Super Off-Peak"

If you think this is all very misleading, you could write to your MP and ask why the DfT insisted on "simplification" and was then happy with the fact things actually got more complex and why are they happy with the misleading/incorrect claims on the National Rail website?

Sadly the TOCs can get away with anything because the DfT lets them, this is because rail passengers allow themselves to be fleeced - in stark contrast to the extremely vocal and powerful road lobby.

 

[Moonshot]

So here we are a few weeks down the line......from what I see, there are a lot more passengers with anytime tickets as opposed to off peak, so clearly the idea of reducing the subsidy and increasing the take from the passenger is working. I m not convinced that many passengers have been moved to off peak trains however....clearly the need to travel at a specific time overides the cost of doing so. Interestingly , I have not had any complaints either, and in fact I got into quite a conversation with 1 passenger who actually saw the benfit of doing this...

 

[fowler9]

So here we are a few weeks down the line......from what I see, there are a lot more passengers with anytime tickets as opposed to off peak, so clearly the idea of reducing the subsidy and increasing the take from the passenger is working. I m not convinced that many passengers have been moved to off peak trains however....clearly the need to travel at a specific time overides the cost of doing so. Interestingly , I have not had any complaints either, and in fact I got into quite a conversation with 1 passenger who actually saw the benfit of doing this...

If most people are just paying more what benefit did the passenger who agreed see? Still crowded, costs more. Actually I don't get what point you are making at all. People aren't moving to off peak trains so it is not reducing overcrowding. You met one person who likes paying more. You aren't convinced that people are moving to cheaper trains.

 

[muz379]

If most people are just paying more what benefit did the passenger who agreed see? Still crowded, costs more. Actually I don't get what point you are making at all. People aren't moving to off peak trains so it is not reducing overcrowding. You met one person who likes paying more. You aren't convinced that people are moving to cheaper trains.

whilst I agree with what you are saying

The purpose of this was never proposed as a solution to the problem of overcrowding it was merely to fill the gap in finances made by the DFT's decision to reduce subsidy .

I have not had any complaints either, and in fact I got into quite a conversation with 1 passenger who actually saw the benfit of doing this...

Have you ever even actually like worked a train ?

Ive had lots of complaints , even now a month on they are still coming in . Most of them are now centered around the removal of the cheap evening return .
The first few weeks there was complaint followed by argument followed by complaint followed by complaint now most the commuters have got used to the restrictions you still get the odd person traveling in the evening peak with an off peak but they are usually infrequent travelers . You still get the odd grumble when they see a single 142 running a very busy service .

But ive also had a lot of complaints about the haphazard way the restrictions have been imposed . In fact I had one just this very morning whilst sat in Huddersfield .

 

[northwichcat]

The purpose of this was never proposed as a solution to the problem of overcrowding it was merely to fill the gap in finances made by the DFT's decision to reduce subsidy .

Well Alex Hynes said it would provide peak time commuters with a more comfortable environment in his video announcement which accompanied the Direct Award announcement, even though the alternative option was an end to free car parking at PTE managed station car parks. Apparently all the PTEs were against that - Metro to extent they preferred a new evening peak over an end to free parking but TfGM would have reluctantly accepted car parking charges on condition that no evening peak would be introduced.

 

[table38]

The purpose of this was never proposed as a solution to the problem of overcrowding it was merely to fill the gap in finances made by the DFT's decision to reduce subsidy .

To be fair, Northern were busily putting out press releases trying to justify their decision by spinning the line that it could... http://www.northernrail.org/news/7507

The majority of customers who travel in the evening peak already buy season tickets or anytime fares and won’t be affected by this change. They could also find their trains are less crowded

IIRC, comforting words to the same effect appeared in quite a lot of the local press at the time.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Well Alex Hynes said it would provide peak time commuters with a more comfortable environment in his video announcement which accompanied the Direct Award announcement, even though the alternative option was an end to free car parking at PTE managed station car parks. Apparently all the PTEs were against that - Metro to extent they preferred peak time restrictions over an end to free parking but TfGM would have reluctantly accepted car parking charges on condition that no evening peak would be introduced.

Would you say that the promised "more comfortable environment for peak time commuters" actually came to fruition?

 

[muz379]

Well Alex Hynes said it would provide peak time commuters with a more comfortable environment in his video announcement which accompanied the Direct Award announcement, even though the alternative option was an end to free car parking at PTE managed station car parks. Apparently all the PTEs were against that - Metro to extent they preferred peak time restrictions over an end to free parking but TfGM would have reluctantly accepted car parking charges on condition that no evening peak would be introduced.

Ahh I never saw that ,I was just taking my information from the number of leaflets that I have seen and handed out at the start of the changes to ticket restrictions which states
"
The changes are being made after the Department for Transport asked Northern to look at several options to help reduce subsidy as part of its new franchise agreement.

The change to off-peak tickets is the only option that has been taken forward and will be used to reduce the cost of the railway to taxpayers by reducing subsidy to Northern.
"

I knew about changes to free parking and personally would be with TFGM in reluctantly accepting those rather than making using the train more expensive . However financially would this have added up to as much .
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

To be fair, Northern were busily putting out press releases trying to justify their decision by spinning the line that it could... http://www.northernrail.org/news/7507



IIRC, comforting words to the same effect appeared in quite a lot of the local press at the time.

This is semantics yes I know but the words "They could also find their trains are less crowded." Does not actually point to the reason why they changed the ticket restrictions it merely pointed to one of the hopeful effects of it

. If that was the reason they could have done it off their own backs a while ago and surely given the fact that overcrowding has been a theme on Northern since long before the DFT gave them the direct award it would have been wise to have done if that was their intention .

 

[fowler9]

It seems to me that all that has been proved is that if people really need to travel they will just pay. Pretty obvious really. What the market will bare only goes to a certain point though. Someone else is getting less money in the current economy.

 

[muz379]

It seems to me that all that has been proved is that if people really need to travel they will just pay. Pretty obvious really. What the market will bare only goes to a certain point though. Someone else is getting less money in the current economy.

I personally think it has been proven that what Northern said all along which is that not many people will actually be effected by it because most travelers at that time are using a season or anytime return already . Which means the changing of restrictions on off peak tickets hasn't raised them that much money in the long run .
That is mirrored by my own experience of only having to perform a handful of excesses during the last month that this has been in operation .

One thing I do think will have made a bit more revenue though is the removal of the cheap evening return/evening rover as I haven't really seen any lull in passengers after 6:30 and a fair few people still think a return is cheaper than a single at that time . Although I think it might take a bit more than a month for the effects of the removal of them to be felt as more and more people decide its cheaper to get a taxi home after a night out and all that .

Although I think ultimately that might fall into the hands of the DFT who can then use falling passenger numbers as an excuse for ending evening services earlier .

 

[yorksrob]

Would you say that the promised "more comfortable environment for peak time commuters" actually came to fruition?

I've not found this to be the case. It seems to be pure spin to mask a bad policy.