Northern to introduce evening peak restrictions

[hairyhandedfool]

Well it didn't take long did it for Northern to oversell me a ticket! Less than a week I make it. The difference was only 15p so I didn't notice, but I wasn't asked what time I was completing my journey and a ticket clerk simply assumed that because I had begun a journey at around 1530 I would be needing an Anytime ticket....

That's quite an assumption you make. Have you considered that the staff member might have made a 'genuine mistake' (popular opinion on this forum does seem to be that staff are immune from making them, despite only being human). I must check my emails tomorrow, I don't remember one telling me to deliberately 'oversell' tickets....

....As ever, these new restrictions are simply being used as yet another method for the TOC to try to rip off it's customers, and have absolutely nothing to do with giving anyone a more comfortable journey....

Northern has been quite upfront about this. DfT stipulated that one of three things must happen, all Northern did was pick one. DfT want it because they want to reduce subsidy, so Northern shouldn't actually be benefiting from this at all. I realise you like to blame TOCs for everything, but I think it is actually unfair in this case.

....It's totally not acceptable for anyone to sell a ticket on the assumption that the person will be travelling in the evening peak, if it is after the morning peak has ended.

Some would argue that assuming a passenger is travelling in the morning peak is wrong, even if they are buying the ticket at 6am (with suitcases at their side and plane tickets in their top pocket, all ready to go), and of course, we shouldn't forget that people buying tickets at 10am might be travelling at 5pm.

Oh, and don't forget that just because someone asks for a ticket, it doesn't even mean they are travelling that day, they could be buying in advance and and just not willing to share that information with the clerk for no discernible reason (it happens a fair amount in my experience, but don't let that get in the way of a good argument).

 

[Starmill]

Some would argue that assuming a passenger is travelling in the morning peak is wrong, even if they are buying the ticket at 6am (with suitcases at their side and plane tickets in their top pocket, all ready to go), and of course, we shouldn't forget that people buying tickets at 10am might be travelling at 5pm.

Oh, and don't forget that just because someone asks for a ticket, it doesn't even mean they are travelling that day, they could be buying in advance and and just not willing to share that information with the clerk for no discernible reason (it happens a fair amount in my experience, but don't let that get in the way of a good argument).

Your cynicism isn't effective. Quite apart from the fact that they are more reasonable assumptions than in my case, if any of those mistakes were made, they are no more likely to be made today than they were last week. Unless you think people who work in ticket offices shouldn't be making a bit more effort to ensure everyone has the correct ticket for their journey and disambiguate all of the requirements in light of recent changes?

It doesn't help that I was buying a ticket part way through my journey, and had to queue on arrival so I was pretty rushed. The reason for this was that Northern's TVMs don't seem to allow railcard discounts in the evening peak*!

* I'm going to investigate what the problem was with this further, I'm not totally sure that is what it was yet and it might be restricted to just one machine. Disappointing nonetheless.

 

[button_boxer]

Right. If I go from Blackrod to Picc (return) starting in the evening peak, it's £8.80 return. If I go one stop further away and go from there, Adlington, it's a much cheaper £5.70 return.
So anyone living half-way between the two....have a little walk top Adlington and save yourself £3.10 and have an extra pint!

Or just buy the Adlington ticket but get on/off the train at Blackrod - there's no break of journey restriction.

 

[Starmill]

Northern has been quite upfront about this. DfT stipulated that one of three things must happen, all Northern did was pick one. DfT want it because they want to reduce subsidy, so Northern shouldn't actually be benefiting from this at all. I realise you like to blame TOCs for everything, but I think it is actually unfair in this case.

Northern have presumably had full control over how to implement these changes and made the decisions about who is affected and by how much. As my post comparing Northern's evening restrictions to those in the West Midlands explains, this approach is summed up by 'make as many people as possible need an Anytime ticket' and then say publicly that not that many people will be affected - an obvious lie if the plan is to actually work. As I said then, the incredibly crude blanket restrictions and withdrawal of long-standing evening products comes as a result of the fact that this decision is down to Northern, no?

 

[trainophile]

Could someone help me understand all this as I'm confused...

If I search on the East Coast website for an Off Peak Day Return Southport to Manchester Piccadilly (£7.55 with Senior Railcard), the Return side brings up trains departing MAN at 1622, 1628, 1723, 1727 and 1822.

Is this right?

 

[button_boxer]

Could someone help me understand all this as I'm confused...



If I search on the East Coast website for an Off Peak Day Return Southport to Manchester Piccadilly (£7.55 with Senior Railcard), the Return side brings up trains departing MAN at 1622, 1628, 1723, 1727 and 1822.



Is this right?

That's correct, the restriction code on that ticket is B1 - any train after 0930.

The new restrictions are (roughly speaking) only on fares within a single PTE area, not from Merseyside to GM.

 

[razor89]

Could someone help me understand all this as I'm confused...

If I search on the East Coast website for an Off Peak Day Return Southport to Manchester Piccadilly (£7.55 with Senior Railcard), the Return side brings up trains departing MAN at 1622, 1628, 1723, 1727 and 1822.

Is this right?

Yes, as Southport is in the Merseyside PTE area and restrictions on these tickets have not changed. You are free to join any train for your return journey.

 

[trainophile]

Oh, thanks both for the speedy replies. I'm pleased to learn that, but it doesn't seem very fair on those who are affected. Strange system.

 

[Howardh]

Or just buy the Adlington ticket but get on/off the train at Blackrod - there's no break of journey restriction.

Is that so??
Interesting. Could be handy for getting on at Lostock.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....Quite apart from the fact that they are more reasonable assumptions than in my case.....

Are they?

Unless you think people who work in ticket offices shouldn't be making a bit more effort to ensure everyone has the correct ticket for their journey and disambiguate all of the requirements in light of recent changes?....

How about I make sure all ticket offices have a spot lamp so we can all 'interrogate' passengers properly to get all the information we need. It's the only way to be sure......

Northern have presumably had full control over how to implement these changes and made the decisions about who is affected and by how much...

I couldn't tell you because I don't honestly know, but in reality, only the PTE area tickets are under any real control. Wavertree Tech Park to Patricroft, for example, is a journey that would, in all probability, only use Northern services, but the fare is set by TPE, how could Northern put a restriction on that?

....As my post comparing Northern's evening restrictions to those in the West Midlands explains, this approach is summed up by 'make as many people as possible need an Anytime ticket' and then say publicly that not that many people will be affected - an obvious lie if the plan is to actually work....

I personally wouldn't have said it doesn't affect anyone, but if the aim is to raise revenue, to reduce subsidy, then I think a blanket restriction is the simplest solution to the problem.

....As I said then, the incredibly crude blanket restrictions and withdrawal of long-standing evening products comes as a result of the fact that this decision is down to Northern, no?

Do you think Northern would have done it if the DfT hadn't specified it?

If yes, why would they?

If no, why do you blame Northern for it?

Could someone help me understand all this as I'm confused...

If I search on the East Coast website for an Off Peak Day Return Southport to Manchester Piccadilly (£7.55 with Senior Railcard), the Return side brings up trains departing MAN at 1622, 1628, 1723, 1727 and 1822.

Is this right?

Southport to Manchester is not affected by the evening peak restrictions.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Did DafT specify it? DafT wanted to pay less subsidy, but there were many options, including the greedy fat cats at Serco taking less cream home. Yes, I do blame northern for it.

I would also suggest you don't mention tickets which get around the restrictions on here. They'll be gone within the week if you do. Between DafT and the TOCs the intention is to get the poorest people to buy the cream for the directors.

 

[yorksrob]

Did DafT specify it? DafT wanted to pay less subsidy, but there were many options, including the greedy fat cats at Serco taking less cream home. Yes, I do blame northern for it.

I would also suggest you don't mention tickets which get around the restrictions on here. They'll be gone within the week if you do. Between DafT and the TOCs the intention is to get the poorest people to buy the cream for the directors.

Well, ultimately a nominally private company can't exist without profit, so arguably Northern isn't so much at fault as those who insist on the need for a profit motive in the first place.

The "options" all fit in with DfT's agenda as outlined in the recent consultation, of squeezing investment and forcing more money out of people, in spite of the social and economic damage to urban and rural economies in the North. DfT's failed and iniquitous policy is primarily to blame for this situation.

 

[Howardh]

I don't understand why the after 6.30pm half-price off-peak day return has gone.
How many passengers actually HAVE to travel at that time, compared with leisure passengers out for a night out/sport event/concert etc? Even the roads are empty so driving in or catching a bus is a valid option. Surely they should be trying to fill the trains more at night as empty seats doesn't bring in revenue?

Or even a Sunday - Thursday half-price return and leave it full price for the clubbers and pubbers who go out at weekend?

 

[TUC]

On the Leeds to Selby train tonight the guard came through the train to recheck everyone's tickets after we had left Micklefield, explaining that it was because we had now left West Yorkshire. I was left intrigued by this and wondered if it was something Northern were now requiring, given that going out of West Yorkshire brings you back into Off-Peak fare validity, although quite why this would then require an additional ticket check is beyond me.

 

[razor89]

Did DafT specify it? DafT wanted to pay less subsidy, but there were many options, including the greedy fat cats at Serco taking less cream home. Yes, I do blame northern for it.

I would also suggest you don't mention tickets which get around the restrictions on here. They'll be gone within the week if you do. Between DafT and the TOCs the intention is to get the poorest people to buy the cream for the directors.

The reality is though that any company in Northern's position would have done the same. Private companies aren't going to bid to run our railways if they are banned from making profit.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

On Mondays to Fridays, is an off-peak return from Rochdale to Hebden Bridge subject to these evening-peak restictions ? Not my question, but one that I have been asked to ask by a friend of the family.

 

[greatkingrat]

I don't understand why the after 6.30pm half-price off-peak day return has gone.
How many passengers actually HAVE to travel at that time, compared with leisure passengers out for a night out/sport event/concert etc? Even the roads are empty so driving in or catching a bus is a valid option. Surely they should be trying to fill the trains more at night as empty seats doesn't bring in revenue?

Or even a Sunday - Thursday half-price return and leave it full price for the clubbers and pubbers who go out at weekend?

Its about maximising revenue, not passenger numbers. 50 people paying £4 is better than 80 people paying £2.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

On Mondays to Fridays, is an off-peak return from Rochdale to Hebden Bridge subject to these evening-peak restictions ? Not my question, but one that I have been asked to ask by a friend of the family.

No, still valid any time after 0930.

 

[Anvil1984]

On the Leeds to Selby train tonight the guard came through the train to recheck everyone's tickets after we had left Micklefield, explaining that it was because we had now left West Yorkshire. I was left intrigued by this and wondered if it was something Northern were now requiring, given that going out of West Yorkshire brings you back into Off-Peak fare validity, although quite why this would then require an additional ticket check is beyond me.

In my experience I've had a few people who have tried using a Metrocard to South Milford or even Selby so I've done a full re-check on the odd occasion

 

[muz379]

Northern has been quite upfront about this. DfT stipulated that one of three things must happen, all Northern did was pick one. DfT want it because they want to reduce subsidy, so Northern shouldn't actually be benefiting from this at all. I realise you like to blame TOCs for everything, but I think it is actually unfair in this case.

I completely agree with this .

one of the other mooted suggestions was to introduce car parking charges .If im honest I wont be surprised if this does happen eventually anyway

Im sure other mooted ideas to reduce the subsidy would have been a reduction in off peak services , including a massive reduction in later evening and Sunday services .

Northern wouldn't have done this IMO if it werent for pressure and prompting from the DFT . Its going to hit staff morale as guards and ticket office staff get abuse over it , its not good for PR all of the stories in the press that are running .

 

[Starmill]

How about I make sure all ticket offices have a spot lamp so we can all 'interrogate' passengers properly to get all the information we need. It's the only way to be sure......

Well, if that's your take on it. I was under the impression your job is to ensure people can get the right ticket for their journey.

I couldn't tell you because I don't honestly know, but in reality, only the PTE area tickets are under any real control. Wavertree Tech Park to Patricroft, for example, is a journey that would, in all probability, only use Northern services, but the fare is set by TPE, how could Northern put a restriction on that?

This is simply a consequence of sticking all of the unprofitable routes in one franchise and having the bigger ones price the main tickets between cities rather than within them. Frankly that's not at all the passenger's problem. I could guess at that ticket being priced by TPE because it is valid Partricroft - Manchester - Warrington - Liverpool - Wavertree though.

... blanket restriction is the simplest solution to the problem.

Despite the obvious damage it is already doing to passengers, staff, the company and the reputation of the whole industry? OK.

Do you think Northern would have done it if the DfT hadn't specified it?

If yes, why would they?

If no, why do you blame Northern for it?

Is my point getting lost? The restrictions have been implemented in much more sensible ways elsewhere. If they had to implement restrictions, did they have to do it in a way that causes this much damage? That is so harsh, crude and untargeted?

 

[telstarbox]

Can you two just PM each other ?

 

[mwmbwls]

Or just buy the Adlington ticket but get on/off the train at Blackrod - there's no break of journey restriction.

Likewise, Passengers to and from Burscough Bridge should book to and from New Lane. I believe the imposition of these restrictions on stations in Lancashire, Cheshire and Derbyshire outside of the IPTA boundaries (and their fare structures) is blatant "gouging" - especially when the first train after 18.30 could be 59 minutes later.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Northern wouldn't have done this IMO if it werent for pressure and prompting from the DFT . Its going to hit staff morale as guards and ticket office staff get abuse over it , its not good for PR all of the stories in the press that are running .

The way things have been implemented pushes people off public transport and into cars. I don't know why parking charges weren't implemented, it'd have made as much money but without so much negative PR. It could even have been spun as a green initiative. As it is putting severe restrictions on intermodal tickets like the Day Rover just encourages people to drive all the way.

As for the PR, Serco didn't care when they were caught defrauding the taxpayer by tens of millions in their security business, so I doubt they're going to care now. Serco didn't give two stuffs about ripping off the public before, they're really not going to care now.

 

[yorkie]

In issuing a UFPN to a station beyond the next one isn't that because the passenger has admitted that they are intending to travel to said station without a ticket or means to pay for a ticket?

No. An unpaid fare notice is simply a bill for the cost of the fare.

If a passenger has admitted they are intending to travel without a ticket, the the issuing of any fare isn't appropriate.

 

[muz379]

The way things have been implemented pushes people off public transport and into cars. I don't know why parking charges weren't implemented, it'd have made as much money but without so much negative PR. It could even have been spun as a green initiative. As it is putting severe restrictions on intermodal tickets like the Day Rover just encourages people to drive all the way.

As for the PR, Serco didn't care when they were caught defrauding the taxpayer by tens of millions in their security business, so I doubt they're going to care now. Serco didn't give two stuffs about ripping off the public before, they're really not going to care now.

Parking charges would have caused so much negative PR as well , whenever the government announces anything about rising fuel duty , or increasing the cost of driving in some way everyone is up in arms about it in the press .

Car parking charges would have also effected more people

I think you are overestimating how much the senior management at Serco have to do with day to day running the actual TOC . But then again anybody that makes profit is obviously wrong straight off the blocks in your eyes

 

[yorkie]

The way things have been implemented pushes people off public transport and into cars. I don't know why parking charges weren't implemented....

I know why, and it is of no surprise. The intention is to reduce subsidy to Northern so that car-owning non-rail taxpayers benefit. Yes, they do appear to be intending to push people off public transport and into cars, as this reduces the need for extra carriages and the costs that entails. The road lobby is very powerful, while we are pushovers in comparison.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Northern wouldn't have done this IMO if it werent for pressure and prompting from the DFT . Its going to hit staff morale as guards and ticket office staff get abuse over it , its not good for PR all of the stories in the press that are running .

Agreed. The DfT are to blame for this.

However the detail of the way it's been implemented (with restrictions into Manchester/Leeds against the peak flow) is down to Northern.

 

[muz379]

Likewise, Passengers to and from Burscough Bridge should book to and from New Lane. I believe the imposition of these restrictions on stations in Lancashire, Cheshire and Derbyshire outside of the IPTA boundaries (and their fare structures) is blatant "gouging" - especially when the first train after 18.30 could be 59 minutes later.

Anybody that is going to take that advice to buy a ticket from New lane must bear in mind the service they board must actually stop at New Lane , not all services into Manchester from southport stop there .
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Agreed. The DfT are to blame for this.

However the detail of the way it's been implemented (with restrictions into Manchester/Leeds against the peak flow) is down to Northern.

Oh I know , ive already said earlier restrictions on journeys opposite the peak flows , as well as restrictions on those changing in the affected areas in the peak are going to hit passenger numbers on those services . And is unfair on those with no direct journey between their destinations .

Would the PTE's also not have had some role to play in specifying this as well ?

 

[PermitToTravel]

Anybody that is going to take that advice to buy a ticket from New lane must bear in mind the service they board must actually stop at New Lane , not all services into Manchester from southport stop there .

There isn't actually any such requirement
It's perfectly permissible to use such a ticket even on an ATW service from Oxford Road to Piccadilly that hasn't gone anywhere near Merseyside

 

[Tetchytyke]

I think you are overestimating how much the senior management at Serco have to do with day to day running the actual TOC . But then again anybody that makes profit is obviously wrong straight off the blocks in your eyes

In terms of day to day running I'm sure their involvement is limited. But I'll bet my bottom dollar that the executives running Northern will be targeted on profit margins and profit levels, and sacked if they don't meet them.

I also believe that the ethos of a company comes from the very top. In another part of their business Serco were happy to invent people on tags in order to defraud the taxpayer of tens of millions of pounds. I don't believe that this was an isolated incident or a case of a rotten apple. If Serco don't care about the fallout from a complex fraud against the taxpayer, they're certainly not going to care about some northerners whining that their cheap evening return has been abolished.

I firmly believe that the railways should have remained in the non-profit sector, yes. The profit motive is causing much of the damage to the railways, especially the way Network Rail and the TOCs spend more time and money bickering about delay attribution than they do making sure the equipment works properly.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Anybody that is going to take that advice to buy a ticket from New lane must bear in mind the service they board must actually stop at New Lane , not all services into Manchester from southport stop there

It depends where you're travelling to, doesn't it.

If you're travelling to New Lane the train obviously needs to stop there. If you're going beyond New Lane then the train needs to stop there for you to do a 19(b) split. But if you're not travelling as far as New Lane (e.g. Wigan Wallgate or Bolton) then there's no such obligation.

I give it a week before tickets from New Lane have their restrictions changed.

 

[John @ home]

Passengers to and from Burscough Bridge should book to and from New Lane.

Anybody that is going to take that advice to buy a ticket from New lane must bear in mind the service they board must actually stop at New Lane, not all services into Manchester from Southport stop there.

No. If starting a journey at Burscough Bridge with a New Lane - Manchester ticket, there is no requirement for the train to have stopped at New Lane. NRCoC Condition 16 applies.