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Northern to introduce evening peak restrictions

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bb21

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A general reminder that if shorthand three-letter abbreviations are to be used, please use the correct ones as they can cause confusion, and in the case of station names, the correct CRS code.

Some seemingly correct shorthand abbreviations do have other meanings, and can cause confusion, eg. OPR is actually the shorthand for Super Off-Peak Return, not Off-Peak Return (which is mostly SVR - from the old Saver Return). If you are not sure, please write out the full name.

I hate having to point this out as it probably makes me sound petty, but for the sake of clarity, please do use the correct codes (especially if they are three-letters long) as it is a necessary evil.
 
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craigwilson

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No posters or anything else about the withdrawal of Evening tickets here I notice? I have bought 5 or 6 of these since this was first announced and nobody has said anything about them disappearing soon to me?

I have seen nothing advertised about this at all either. I even challenged a guard on my train from Buxton a couple of weeks ago with "I hear they're getting rid of these soon" after I'd shown him my Evening Return, and he claimed to know nothing about it.
 

Kite159

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It strikes me that these restrictions are being done in a way that practically guarantees a major PR disaster once they come into force.

At least Northern haven't stock-piled the penalty fare books ready to catch passengers out ;)

They seem to be very harsh compared to the evening peak restrictions down South, where certain trains are limited out-of London
 

yorksrob

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They seem to be very harsh compared to the evening peak restrictions down South, where certain trains are limited out-of London

The entirely counter-productive actions of a clueless Department of Transport trying to look as though it's doing something.
 

Hadders

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They seem to be very harsh compared to the evening peak restrictions down South, where certain trains are limited out-of London

That might be the case out of Paddington but check the restrictions out of Euston, St Pancras, Kings Cross and Liverpool Street and you'll see restrictions similar to those coming to Northern.
 

Deerfold

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That might be the case out of Paddington but check the restrictions out of Euston, St Pancras, Kings Cross and Liverpool Street and you'll see restrictions similar to those coming to Northern.

And do they have restrictions going into London in the evening peak?
 

Hadders

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To be fair they don't. I did suggest earlier in the thread that the new restrictions in the north should only apply to return portion of tickets.
 

Solent&Wessex

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I have seen nothing advertised about this at all either. I even challenged a guard on my train from Buxton a couple of weeks ago with "I hear they're getting rid of these soon" after I'd shown him my Evening Return, and he claimed to know nothing about it.

It would seem the briefing for conductors at Leeds has only gone out today, so if the west side is the same that'll explain why he didn't know. No excuse about the station posters though.
 

tom1649

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To be fair they don't. I did suggest earlier in the thread that the new restrictions in the north should only apply to return portion of tickets.

It'll be interesting to see whether trains going towards Manchester or Leeds will be transporting fresh air during the evening peak as a result of these new restrictions.
 

northwichcat

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It'll be interesting to see whether trains going towards Manchester or Leeds will be transporting fresh air during the evening peak as a result of these new restrictions.

I don't know about every line but there are some where the services towards Manchester in the evening peak gets a higher loading than the more frequent services away from Manchester.
 

hairyhandedfool

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It'll be interesting to see whether trains going towards Manchester or Leeds will be transporting fresh air during the evening peak as a result of these new restrictions.

Bear in mind that anyone who traveled before 0900 in the morning is likely to still be using the 1600-1830 services and that not everyone works in Manchester or Leeds....
 

Merseysider

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It'll be interesting to see whether trains going towards Manchester or Leeds will be transporting fresh air during the evening peak as a result of these new restrictions.

My local stoppers (Airport - Picc) probably will. They're half empty most of the time anyway. I doubt a price increase is going to fill them.
 

Tetchytyke

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The entirely counter-productive actions of a clueless Department of Transport trying to look as though it's doing something.

Clueless? Hardly. Their mates at Serco are quids in, which is all that counts. Privatisation is great, innit.

As for contra-flow off-peak tickets, it's a bit tougher in Northern Land as there isn't one main peak flow, unlike in London. A lot of people will be travelling out of Leeds or Manchester but there are plenty of other big cities- Bradford, Salford, Sheffield, Doncaster- where lots of people will be travelling out of too.
 

Starmill

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It would seem the briefing for conductors at Leeds has only gone out today, so if the west side is the same that'll explain why he didn't know. No excuse about the station posters though.

Not sure there's much to be said for either side. I bought a West Yorkshire Family Day Rover at the Leeds Travel Centre the other day and the bloke asked me how many people you can get on one of those!?
 

northwichcat

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The entirely counter-productive actions of a clueless Department of Transport trying to look as though it's doing something.

DfT proposed a list of options and it was Northern who chose the evening peak restrictions after the fuss made by the likes of Metro when it was proposed free car parking at PTE stations would end.
 

Starmill

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DfT proposed a list of options and it was Northern who chose the evening peak restrictions after the fuss made by the likes of Metro when it was proposed free car parking at PTE stations would end.

The difference being that charging for car parking would have adversely affected rail usage - and probably created some headaches for Local Authorities, but it would have actually raised a bit of revenue.

This, by contrast, will simply inconvenience people and create yet another point of passenger-staff conflict! More sales of Anytime tickets is very very unlikely to happen in any meaningful volume, and as for revenue from excesses... well, good luck with looking for that too!
 

Deerfold

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DfT proposed a list of options and it was Northern who chose the evening peak restrictions after the fuss made by the likes of Metro when it was proposed free car parking at PTE stations would end.

They'd be the car parks largely paid for by the PTEs?
 

Starmill

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The Campaign for Better Transport's petition against the new restrictions appears to be gaining some traction!
 

JonathanH

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And do they have restrictions going into London in the evening peak?

Not on the National Rail network outside London but there are restrictions going into London on National Rail using Oyster during the evening peak.

Of relevance, perhaps, to the discussion about Northern restrictions is that we are now at a position where Oyster journeys *into* Zone 1 on the Underground (but not National Rail except on routes on the LU scale) are at off-peak rates in the evening peak.

I seem to recall that there was lobbying from the evening economy to cause this relaxation in 2011 - see item 1.6 in http://www.london.gov.uk/sites/default/files/MD698 January 2011 fares revision (signed) PDF.pdf

It is a shame that the Northern cities didn't sort out their PAYG card systems ahead of the current changes as I think it could have been easier to implement the new peak fare arrangements.
 

Tetchytyke

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The Campaign for Better Transport's petition against the new restrictions appears to be gaining some traction!

No it isn't, the cretins and shysters at DafT will simply ignore the passengers. Just like they always do.

If we go back on the peak restrictions, Serco's fat cat directors might lose their bonuses. We can't have that. What would the shareholders say?

There are thirty-six million reasons (per annum) why DafT won't go back on peak fare restrictions.
 
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tom1649

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I wonder what proportion of the extra revenue will go back into the railways. Hopefully it won't all go to Serco or Abellio (Dutch Government coffers).
 

Emyr

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Has the idea of "not-for-profit franchising" ever been examined seriously? I understand the "management contract" arrangement is a step closer, but what's stopping the application of such structures across the whole network?
 

Tetchytyke

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The "management contract" is a step further away, not a step closer, and exists solely to prevent DafT having to competitively tender a franchise rather than award it to their mates.

Neither the Tories nor Tory Lite Labour will ever seriously consider non-profit franchising. How will their mates in corporate finance buy their second yacht otherwise?
 

tom1649

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Sadly the days of providing a public service without a profit motive seem to be almost over... Just look at the outsourcing going on at government and local authority level. Eventually the USA will have more state owned services than we have!
 

hassaanhc

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Northern Rail is a disgrace

It’s an insult that Northern Rail is putting up ticket prices when the service they offer is so reliably terrible, says the Guardian’s northern editor, Helen Pidd

I never travel with Northern Rail if I can help it, and not just because I have a car and some of their services are so slow that it’s quicker to drive – or cycle, or walk, on a really bad day. Nor is it because so many of their bone-shaking “Pacer” trains are so knackered that British Rail donated a load to Iran back in the day, where these “buses on rails” are now considered too antiquated to continue in active service.

No, I avoid Northern Rail because their services are so chuffing unreliable that I’d rather take a chance with motorway traffic than put my faith in a train which so often seems to get cancelled at the 11th hour.

Take a look at @NorthernRailOrg on Twitter if you want to get a flavour of how utterly incompetent the company is. Last Thursday began with typically miserable news for northern travellers, with three services cancelled for the same, infuriating reason: “due to a member of train crew becoming unavailable”. So hard luck for any Blackpudlians up at the crack of sparrows, hoping to travel to York on the 05:11. Northern Rail couldn’t get its staffing together to make that one run. Ditto the 06.43 from Sheffield to Lincoln and the 06.21 from Nottingham to Leeds. All for the same reason. It was not an atypical morning. Last month the leader of Leeds City council was late arriving in Manchester for George Osborne’s endorsement of a £14bn transport plan including a “Crossrail for the north”. Why? His train was delayed, of course.

I asked Northern Rail to tell me how many services they cancelled in August because they didn’t have the staff. A press officer suggested she could collate the figures and then changed her mind, saying the firm was worried the information would be “misinterpreted”. I told her that her refusal to be transparent would surely be interpreted as Northern Rail hiding the embarrassing truth about their inability to get staffing levels right.

Instead of answering my perfectly straightforward query, she sent me some propaganda from “Alan Chaplin, Service Delivery Director for Northern Rail”, who boasted that the proportion of trains arriving on time had risen from 83% to 91% over the last ten years. Only a “minority” of services were cancelled due to staffing issues, said Chaplin, including “colleagues out of place due to disruption and members of staff being signed off due to being involved in a serious incident such as a fatality.”

Now I accept that many delays are not Northern’s bad. Often there’s a fault on the line, or engineering works have overrun and we can blame Network Rail - or the idiots who have stolen crucial copper wiring from the signalling box, the obstinate cow having a nap on the rails, and so forth. And as the firm is coming to the end of its franchise, I understand that they are not about to buy a load of shiny new trains (even if they did, so many Northern lines are still not electrified that it would be a total waste of money).

But it really tries my patience that despite running such a poor show they have the audacity to put prices up. From Monday, rail users travelling at what Northern calls “the evening peak” on any services in the Greater Manchester, West Yorkshire and South Yorkshire areas and associated routes can no longer use an off-peak ticket. In Northern World, peak time begins at 16.01 and ends at 18.29. An peak return from Rochdale to Wigan is about to jump 162% from £4.20 to £11. For anyone using the Manchester-Liverpool service at that hour, the journey is about to get £4.20 more expensive each day, with an anytime return costing a hefty £18.90.

Naturally it’s not Northern’s fault, but the big bad government, which “asked Northern to look at several options to help reduce subsidy as part of its new franchise agreement.” The change to off-peak tickets was deemed the best idea, to “reduce the cost of the railway to taxpayers by reducing subsidy to Northern.”

So for anyone wanting to get home from work at a sensible time, an already rubbish service will now cost significantly more. It’s an insult and Northern Rail is a disgrace.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/the-northerner/2014/sep/07/helen-pidd-i-hate-northern-rail
 

Merseysider

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Despite the fact I am a Guardian reader, I feel that this is only a half-informed view.

For example, if a 4.30am service run by TPE is the one Northern staff use to get to work, and that faces delay, Northern will be at fault for "staff unavailable" despite it not being their direct fault.

Additionally, the Guardian writer fails to take into account that Northern's franchise is heavily subsidised, and obviously, this subsidy cannot continue indefinitely, so Northern have to do something to raise additional funds (even though you, I and everyone else hates their price increases).

If travelling from Rochdale costs £11, travelling by bus or tram is a cheaper way to do it.

Also, the statement about passengers using the Manchester - Liverpool service is misguided as tickets from Liverpool will not be affected. For passengers travelling Rochdale - Liverpool, there are a million cheaper ways to make this journey.

In conclusion, this article has been written to make Northern appear very sh*tty and underhand, whereas in reality, they're only slightly sh*tty ;)
 

muz379

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This is a terribly written piece .

She starts out well suggesting that there are problems with trains delayed and cancelled due to train crew shortages . Something I am sure will put some people off relying on trains to get to work . Something that is being resolved but with it taking so long to train guards and drivers things cant improve overnight on that front .

However
Suggesting services are too slow and it is quicker to walk or drive is ridiculous , it is a TOC which serves a lot of commuters of course the services are going to be slower than driving in many cases .

She suggests that Northern should have bought shiny new trains earlier into the franchise. Whilst I admit Pacers arent the best . Im not sure that it is Northerns preference to operate pacers -Toc's buying new trains is not something the current franchise system is geared towards .

She also suggests that the fares have rocketed for anybody that is traveling between 16:01and 18:29 . This is simply not not true . Many people who wish to travel during this evening peak will have traveled in the morning one and will have a season ticket or an Anytime return which will be valid in the evening peak . So the fares are not rocketing for anybody .

She has completely missed out on the removal of the cheap evening return and GM evening ranger which I think is a bigger deal than the changes going to be brought in by the evening peak restrictions .
I can excuse members of the public not having a clue what they are talking about and blaming it soley on the TOC . But to be a regional editor for a major national newspaper and not do your research is a tad bit embarrassing IMO .
 
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jon0844

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it may be true but I am not sure

Did you just write that about a story on the Daily Mash??

Tom Logan certainly gets about a bit. Very often he's from Hatfield or Stevenage, but New York is certainly a step up!!
 
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