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Northern to introduce evening peak restrictions

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Paul Kelly

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The wording of Restriction code ND, which seems to be the most common new one, in Avantix Traveller is:
Restriction ND said:
OUTWARD TRAVEL

Valid on trains timed to
depart between 0930 - 1600 inc
and from 1830 onwards.

RETURN TRAVEL

Any train the same day except
those timed todepart between
1601 - 1829 inc
It would appear to imply that you can't travel on any train that departs any station between 1601 and 1829! Very poorly worded.
 
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What a shame... this will double the cost of going into Manchester; I'll be using Virgin on a VT only single and blagging the return on the 2318

That does sound like your response is therefore not to buy a ticket on the return, correct?
 

ianhr

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Northern Rail are the most customer unfriendly bunch of people

I agree with that sentiment as far as the management are concerned, when one adds this latest swindle to their crappy trains (with the exception of the small amount of electric stock), shoddy stations, overcrowding, minimal Sunday services, failure to talk to any other agency to get the Todmorden curve trains running by Dec, failure to open the new station at Burnley Man Rd (even though it was paid for by someone else), etc etc etc.....!!!!! It is a disgrace that they were given the franchise extension.
 

northwichcat

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I agree with that sentiment as far as the management are concerned, when one adds this latest swindle to their crappy trains (with the exception of the small amount of electric stock), shoddy stations, overcrowding, minimal Sunday services, failure to talk to any other agency to get the Todmorden curve trains running by Dec, failure to open the new station at Burnley Man Rd (even though it was paid for by someone else), etc etc etc.....!!!!! It is a disgrace that they were given the franchise extension.

The franchise extension is the reason for minimal Sunday services, the next franchise will allow for Sunday services to be enhanced but DfT gave them the Direct Award on the basis that the service frequencies would largely remain the same and they'll only have 14 x 319s to provide extra capacity with the first 2 set to be in passenger service from December.
 

Starmill

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The wording of Restriction code ND, which seems to be the most common new one, in Avantix Traveller is:

It would appear to imply that you can't travel on any train that departs any station between 1601 and 1829! Very poorly worded.

How does this work with other restrictions in other parts of the country that are worded like this? It doesn't say that travel must be complete by 1600 and we all know that a change of trains doesn't have to mean a new journey.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I agree with that sentiment as far as the management are concerned, when one adds this latest swindle to their crappy trains (with the exception of the small amount of electric stock), shoddy stations, overcrowding, minimal Sunday services, failure to talk to any other agency to get the Todmorden curve trains running by Dec, failure to open the new station at Burnley Man Rd (even though it was paid for by someone else), etc etc etc.....!!!!! It is a disgrace that they were given the franchise extension.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - there is absolutely no justification for increasing the price of Northern services from a customer point of view. If they were going to pay for increasing services then we might be able to swallow them less bitterly, but this is clear to most people for what it is - a money-grab. The general ****eness of Northern's customer service principles makes it even more hard to deal with.
 

Starmill

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yorksrob

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Well, I've complained to my MP. I'll be interested to see whether I get a reply.
 

table38

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The map has disappeared for me... and there was no green on it 2 days ago when I had a look?

Confused...

Maybe worth me saving these maps for posterity (in case they do mysteriously disappear!)

Greater Manchester

Restrictions apply to journeys that start and finish on routes marked in red.

For stations / routes marked in green restrictions apply to/from these locations to Manchester / Salford stations.

5_offpeakrestrictions-manchesterarea.jpg


West Yorkshire

Restrictions apply to journeys that start and finish on routes marked in red.

For stations / routes marked in green restrictions apply to/from these locations to Leeds station and for Skipton and Connonley to Bradford or Leeds stations.

3_offpeakrestrictions-westyorkshire.jpg


South Yorkshire

Restrictions apply to journeys that start and finish on routes marked in red.

4_offpeakrestrictions-southyorkshire.jpg


Hexham / Newcastle

Restrictions will apply to services between Hexham and Newcastle (highlighted in red) from 16.01-17.59. This excludes journeys between Blaydon - Newcastle inclusive

1_offpeakrestrictions-tyneandwear.jpg
 

IanD

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The map has disappeared for me... and there was no green on it 2 days ago when I had a look?

Confused...

There was definitely no green on the previous version of the map although it was mentioned in the text hence someone posted that a colour was missing.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Actually, that was about a red bit missing. But definitely no green on the maps before.
 

Paul Duck

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My only worries about the new restrictions is telling thousands of cricket fans at Headingley there ticket is invalid when the match finishes early and they all try to get back into Leeds between the restricted times.
 

yorkie

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My only worries about the new restrictions is telling thousands of cricket fans at Headingley there ticket is invalid when the match finishes early and they all try to get back into Leeds between the restricted times.
I think that if there are thousands of people requiring a CDR to SDR excess, Northern will not be able to ching everyone in a timely manner, so will have no choice but to let people travel without the extra charge.

If a Railcard is held, the excess is only 20p.

By the way, for many of the longer journeys it will be cheaper to buy longer distance tickets and start/finish short ;)
 

mandub

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I think that if there are thousands of people requiring a CDR to SDR excess, Northern will not be able to ching everyone in a timely manner, so will have no choice but to let people travel without the extra charge.

If a Railcard is held, the excess is only 20p.

By the way, for many of the longer journeys it will be cheaper to buy longer distance tickets and start/finish short ;)

Indeed, am sure most guards with Northern won't be excessing people in the evening. Probably just be letting people know about the restrictions for future ref. Be a different matter with the barrier staff though if arriving into main stations
 

Starmill

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There was definitely no green on the previous version of the map although it was mentioned in the text hence someone posted that a colour was missing.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Actually, that was about a red bit missing. But definitely no green on the maps before.

Agree, I 100% remember the line was red all the way to Knaresborough, for example.
 

Philip C

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Sorry but I thought the non-red, non-green section of line simply indicated that it lay in George Osborne's Tatton Constituency; clearly I was a (little) wrong about that!
 

Starmill

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The green bits add a dimension that is going to be fun. Will Warrington Stations to Ardwick have restrictions? ;p
 

Solent&Wessex

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The green bits add a dimension that is going to be fun. Will Warrington Stations to Ardwick have restrictions? ;p

No, it doesn't.

But a Warrington to Ardwick CDR is more ( £9.60) than a Warrington to Manchester SDR (£9.10).
 

yorkie

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Buying to Ardwick may help with other origins, but best not to publicise them too much in case Northern try to sneakily impose more restrictions.

This is a game of cat & mouse, and there's only one way to win: don't be the mouse ;)

BTW, several forum members favourite ticket to get from the Mankychester area to the North East is still valid, but certain TOCs are desperately trying to remove such anomalies, so I'm only giving that out to people who won't inform them - send me a PM if you want it!

Oh, and don't forget to buy those West Yorkshire DayRover scratchcards at the existing T&Cs!

 

northwichcat

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Sorry but I thought the non-red, non-green section of line simply indicated that it lay in George Osborne's Tatton Constituency; clearly I was a (little) wrong about that!

Like I've said before the sections outside the PTE areas which have new peak restrictions are generally benefiting from PTE funding even though they aren't in the PTE area. For example, TfGM fund additional carriages on peak time services to/from Buxton without that funding the Buxton line would be lower priority for strengthened services.

George Osborne's Tatton Constituency has Alderley Edge, Handforth, Mobberley, Knutsford, Plumley, Styal, Lostock Gralam and Chelford stations in it. Some of those are among the few non-PTE stations which have new peak restrictions applied to them.
 

Philip C

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Like I've said before the sections outside the PTE areas which have new peak restrictions are generally benefiting from PTE funding even though they aren't in the PTE area. For example, TfGM fund additional carriages on peak time services to/from Buxton without that funding the Buxton line would be lower priority for strengthened services.

George Osborne's Tatton Constituency has Alderley Edge, Handforth, Mobberley, Knutsford, Plumley, Styal, Lostock Gralam and Chelford stations in it. Some of those are among the few non-PTE stations which have new peak restrictions applied to them.

Please add Ashley and Wilmslow to the list.

I must accept your point in connection with some of G Osb's boundaries (but not the CLC Chester Line) however there remain a few points which I still cannot get my mind around:

1. What is the intended difference between red and green line stations? I'd expected return fares from Wilmslow to stations other than central Manchester not to rise in the evening peak from September and yet the fare to Stockport does rise at the time of the new restriction. Why?

2. Is TfGM reducing its funding for service strengthening or, what I take to be, fares support? If it isn't then why is it being singled out vis-a-vis surrounding areas for a fares increase at this time? In other words what is it about residents of Greater Manchester (and a few beyond its boundary) that has brought on this fares increase (or additional restriction on use of off-peak tickets, if you prefer) but has had no impact on fares from Whitehaven or Knutsford or Lytham?

3. (But it might just be an extension of point 2!) Are we to take it Northern have been too soft in its dealings with the PTEs and has been told, by Whitehall, to become less soft? If this is the case then what does that say about the business acumen of Northern and the PTEs?

I am genuinely perplexed at the differential treatment of travellers from stations within and without the PTE areas (I could have written much the same of West or South Yorkshire as of Greater Manchester). You will doubtless point to the way prices for off-peak returns rise at the boundary for travel to the respective city centres but I'd always taken that to reflect the impact of specific subsidy (ie. a political decision to pass rates/grant to Northern Rail in return for some benefit) - am I wrong? Whilst you have clarified some of the Tatton issues there remain, to my mind, too many cases where these latest adjustments spare areas represented by a particular political party - though I accept that this may be more nuanced than my earlier posting implied.
 

northwichcat

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1. What is the intended difference between red and green line stations? I'd expected return fares from Wilmslow to stations other than central Manchester not to rise in the evening peak from September and yet the fare to Stockport does rise at the time of the new restriction. Why?

Cheadle Hulme to Manchester is £3.90 for an off-peak day return.
Cheadle Hulme to Smithy Bridge is £4.20 for an off-peak day return.

Wilmslow to Manchester is £5.90 for an off-peak day return.
Wilmslow to Smithy Bridge is £10.20 for an off-peak day return.

To me that is a good enough reason for Cheadle Hulme to have harsher restrictions on off-peak tickets than Wilmslow. The reason for the difference in fares is due to a TfGM subsidy applying to Cheadle Hulme fares.

I notice Northern have now updated the map to show Stalybridge-Piccadilly in red. They've also put Denton in red, so the passengers at Denton can no longer board a train in the evening peak with an off-peak ticket. :roll:

too many cases where these latest adjustments spare areas represented by a particular political party

The non-PTE stations which are the first stations outside the PTE boundary and are purple stations are Adlington (Labour), Entwistle (Labour), Upholland (Labour), Ashley (Conservative) and Poynton (Conservative) so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

It's also worth noting stations between Middlewood and Buxton benefit from a very early end to the morning peak (08:15) and I think is the only Northern line which benefits from such.
 
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hairyhandedfool

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....They've also put Denton in red, so the passengers at Denton can no longer board a train in the evening peak with an off-peak ticket. :roll:....

On the face of it, it looks silly, but until they have break of journey restrictions, it isn't silly at all.....:roll:
 

Philip C

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Cheadle Hulme to Manchester is £3.90 for an off-peak day return.
Cheadle Hulme to Smithy Bridge is £4.20 for an off-peak day return.

Wilmslow to Manchester is £5.90 for an off-peak day return.
Wilmslow to Smithy Bridge is £10.20 for an off-peak day return.

To me that is a good enough reason for Cheadle Hulme to have harsher restrictions on off-peak tickets than Wilmslow. The reason for the difference in fares is due to a TfGM subsidy applying to Cheadle Hulme fares.

It's also worth noting stations between Middlewood and Buxton benefit from a very early end to the morning peak (08:15) and I think is the only Northern line which benefits from such.

You are seeing and then missing my point. "The reason for the difference in fares is due to a TfGM subsidy applying to Cheadle Hulme fares" - YES.

If TfGM is paying such a subsidy then why shouldn't its residents benefit - otherwise there would be no point in paying the subsidy. Why does paying this subsidy make it appropriate for them "to have harsher restrictions on off-peak tickets"?

If TfGM or East Cheshire Council did something special, by way of subsidy, to provide a better service to the CLC Chester line would you, therefore, expect your off-peak restrictions to be made harsher? How would you then compare your treatment with that of Whitehaven or Lytham?

It is this which I don't understand.

I will return to the party political aspects in due course.
 
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I've read pretty much all of this thread, but still need a little clarification...

My home station is Widnes. So if I wanted to travel back from Reddish North, would there be any restrictions on my Off-peak Day Return, even I boarded a train from Reddish North to Piccadilly at say 17.00 as my ticket has Widnes on it (a station not on either the red or green portions of the map)?
 

Merseysider

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I've read pretty much all of this thread, but still need a little clarification...

My home station is Widnes. So if I wanted to travel back from Reddish North, would there be any restrictions on my Off-peak Day Return, even I boarded a train from Reddish North to Piccadilly at say 17.00 as my ticket has Widnes on it (a station not on either the red or green portions of the map)?

Tickets to/from Widnes will be unaffected by the new peak restrictions.
 

hairyhandedfool

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But there's no return fares available from Reddish South/Denton, just Anytime Day Singles.

Did I mention return fares?

Edit: Reddish South to Denton brings up a number of fares on BRFares, as does Reddish South to Stockport, including Off-Peak tickets.
 
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Philip C

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The non-PTE stations which are the first stations outside the PTE boundary and are purple stations are Adlington (Labour), Entwistle (Labour), Upholland (Labour), Ashley (Conservative) and Poynton (Conservative) so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

Firstly to clarify on the statement you have made above: To the best of my knowledge Entwistle falls in the Conservative held Rossendale & Darwen Constituency. I accept that Adlington and Upholland lie in Labour held constituencies though neither has a particularly large majority.

If we look at Northern England as a whole I can count 167 constituencies (107 held by Labour, 11 LibDem, 48 Conservative and 1 [George Galloway] Other) {See note below}

Within the five Metropolitan areas (Merseyside, Greater Manchester, South Yorkshire, West Yorkshire and Tyne & Wear) there are 90 seats (72 held by Labour, 7 LibDem, 10 Conservative and 1 Other).

In non-Metropolitan Northern England there are 77 seats (35 held by Labour, 4 LibDem and 38 Conservative).

The application of the changes to off-peak ticket restrictions from September has been applied to the Metropolitan areas (with a little fuzziness around the edges) and not to the non-Metropolitan areas. No compelling reason has been found for this. Surely if it is to raise revenue then applying it across the board, throughout the North, would either enable the pain to be spread wider and thinner, or for more money to be raised overall. You have suggested that it is because (some) Metropolitan areas subsidise fares, but surely that is the wrong way round: if you give a TOC a subsidy you don't expect to be singled out for extra restrictions!

What I am pointing out is that the extra restrictions apply to areas of the North where the Conservative Party has 11% of the seats and not to those areas where it has 49%. From a Labour perspective that is extra restrictions where it has 80% of the seats and no extra restrictions where it has but 45%. You may wish to make your own deductions I merely point out what appear to be facts.

For what it may matter I am not a supporter of any particular party. I have family connections in Poynton, but cannot believe that the residents of that place are inherently worthy of side-stepping these changes, whilst those visible over the fields in Bramhall or Hazel Grove are deserving victims.

I'd really like to find a logic behind what I can only see as a crude, ill-considered measure. We pay a lot, in general, for good administration of our country and our railways - this feels like an amateur decision that will impact on ordinary people - it will do nothing for the future of our railways or the future of the great cities they serve. That I can smell political partisanship worries me; politicians should apply tests to avoid any such construction and not allow decisions to be made that can be interpreted as I've suggested.

Politics and public administration, should be undertaken for the public good and not for the good of political parties and managerial self-interest. Am I being too idealistic for this glorious modern world?


Note on where the North is:

I've included all constituencies in the following counties: Cheshire, Cleveland, County Durham, Cumbria, Greater Manchester, Humberside, Lancashire, Merseyside, North Yorkshire, Northumberland, South Yorkshire, Tyne & Wear, West Yorkshire. In addition I have included parts of the following counties: Derbyshire (Amber Valley, Bolsover, Chesterfield, Derbyshire Dales, High Peak and NE Derbyshire constituencies), Lincolnshire (Gainsborough and Lincoln constituencies) and Nottinghamshire (Bassetlaw constituency). This reasonably matches the operating area of the Northern TOC.
 
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