Northern to introduce a Penalty fare scheme

[Bantamzen]

For what it is worth, my observations from using 4 Aire / Wharfe services a day are that generally there are less onboard sales, more full ticket checks, more guards reminding passengers about the PF scheme in operation, and regular automated announcements at stations about it. And more importantly very little obvious public angst and outrage, which some suggested would follow its introduction.

What is interesting is that Northern are adapting as they go along. The audio announcements started a couple of days after the start of the scheme, the displays on the new TVMs were adapted to highlight the need to get a ticket under the scheme, and it seems Northern are not adverse to adding machines where needed as a new TVM has appeared outside the ticket office at Guiseley.

 

[lyndhurst25]

It says that you got on at Steeton. That is its only purpose. If the guard reaches you after Bingley you can't then get away with saying that you've just got on.

I know. And I am quite happy with the idea that you buy a ticket before travelling or can get a voucher to say where you boarded the train if the TVM is unable to issue the ticket that you want or accept the method of payment that you want to use, provided that -

1. There are enough TVMs to prevent long queues.
2. If there is a TVM in a location that is hidden from the users certain entrances (e.g. northbound platform at Steeton), then there should either be prominent notices telling passengers where it is, or there should be no Penalty Fares issued to people who used those entrances.
3. That there should be TVMs on both platforms where the only way to cross the tracks is by a level crossing e.g. Cononley. This is a safety as well as an inconvenience issue.
4. For passengers wanting a ticket that the TVM is incapable of issuing, that getting a Promise to Pay (P2P) voucher should be a simple process, not the current method of having to possibly lie to the machine that you don't have a payment card, selecting a random fare that you don't actually want to buy and then going right through the purchase process before a P2P voucher is offered. Why not a simple button press on the home screen? Either that or get the machines to issue WY Day Rovers, tickets from different origins, etc. Come to think of it, Northern haven't been very clear about what passengers wanting WY Day Rovers should do or even if they are obliged to get a P2P voucher at all.

On the plus side these new P2P tickets possibly legitimise users of Northern's newspaper voucher offer who board at an unstaffed station and want to buy the offer ticket at an interchange.

 

[island]

4. The sequence of buttons to get a PTP serves the purposes of encouraging passengers with a payment card to use it, and of dissuading the local yokels at certain stations from issuing hundreds of PTPs until the machine is out of ticket stock and strewing them over the platform.

 

[Deerfold]

4. The sequence of buttons to get a PTP serves the purposes of encouraging passengers with a payment card to use it, and of dissuading the local yokels at certain stations from issuing hundreds of PTPs until the machine is out of ticket stock and strewing them over the platform.

But gives people no idea what they should do if their ticket isn't on the machine.

 

[centraltrains]

But gives people no idea what they should do if their ticket isn't on the machine.

This is why Permit to Travel is better
No messy button menus and a cash commitment. However obviously a large cost in terms of installation, maintenance and cash collection.

Metric Groups P&D Machines can accept contactless, chip and pin, notes and coins. If making sure that something is committed to paying a fare, rather than just straight up fare dodging, surely a higher than 5p minimum payment would be ideal for validating passengers as genuine rather than fare evaders? There just has to be a better way of doing it.....

Surely the best way with Promise to Pay would be to give up the right to buy any ticket available on the machine once obtained apart from the specified one selected, or ones not available on the machine?
You would just need a note on the instruction panel to say if ticket not available, select random journey and obtains promise to pay?

 

[Baxenden Bank]

TVM could have some simple options:
Select the required journey, then at the point of payment select 'non-card payment method' (could be cash / RTV / Priv or whatever) at which point the journey details and amount owing would be printed onto the 'promise to pay' (or IOU) and be known to both the customer and eventual ticket seller - to be paid in cash etc only.
Select the required ticket, then at the point of payment select 'ticket type not available' (could be a monthly season or rover or whatever) at which point the ticket details and amount owing would be printed onto the 'promise to pay' (or IOU) and be known to both the customer and eventual ticket seller - to be converted into that ticket type and no other.

I don't know why some ticket types are not available from a modern machine. If the TVM had limited local memory with no on-line connection, I can understand the ticket range being limited to 'popular tickets from this destination' only. But if it is modern and permanently on-line, and is taking its data from a remote source anyway, why does it not have the same functionality as a ticket office machine or on-board sellers machine? Obviously a photocard cannot be produced (for a longer season) but I fail to see why a rover cannot be produced.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Merseyrail TVMs now sell Rovers for their day ticket product. They used to be sold as singles with an odd destination to allow TVM sales, but they are now actually issued as Rovers (with "Between X and Y" rather than "From X To Y" on them).

 

[skyhigh]

The scheme includes a list of ticket office opening times and numbers of proposed TVM's at each station: 1 at each except Shipley (2) and Leeds (26 including smart walls and toddlers, whatever they are).

I believe 'toddlers' are the type that only allow you to collect pre-booked tickets. I'm surprised the machines at Leeds haven't been upgraded yet to be honest, I thought they'd be some of the first to be done. From a very rough mental count, I don't think there's 26 so it's possible a few more are yet to go in.

 

[northwichcat]

Oh dear, they have secured the document so I cannot post a single page, I'll have to post the whole thing, purely for journalistic purposes as allowed for.

A few observations:
- Guards are told to sell tickets as normal in penalty fare areas but to print off a warning ticket to accompany the actual ticket.
- Passengers travelling on VTEC services can't be charged penalty fares.
- TVMs are to provide a 'health update' every 15 minutes.

 

[Adlington]

TVMs are to provide a 'health update' every 15 minutes.

?????

 

[johntea]

In simplistic terms the control room (or whoever) will be able to monitor if any TVMs go out of action.

I work in IT and although not part of my new job, in my old job I was in charge of printer / photocopier hardware. At a basic level they would either show 'online or offline' (basically green or red traffic lights!) but you could have 'amber' alerts for toner, paper issues etc. At a more advanced level some of the hardware would even automatically contact the manufacturer service desk if it developed a fault so they could automatically send an engineer out to repair it!

 

[Adlington]

A simpler version would be a notice on the TVM "call nnnnnnn if this machine is faulty" <dream> nnnnnnn being a freephone number</dream>

 

[AndrewE]

A simpler version would be a notice on the TVM "call nnnnnnn if this machine is faulty" <dream> nnnnnnn being a freephone number</dream>

...and how does that help you convince the guard or the barrier line people of the fact? Can you see them stopping to make a phone call if they are trying to clear a crowd of incoming pax at Leeds, or Kings Cross?

 

[Mathew S]

A simpler version would be a notice on the TVM "call nnnnnnn if this machine is faulty" <dream> nnnnnnn being a freephone number</dream>

That relies on someone actually making the call, though, and we've been down that line of discussion on this forum before.

 

[Adlington]

That relies on someone actually making the call

Of course, But this would be a half-way solution, between a permanent monitoring link and no way to report a fault.

 

[Mathew S]

Of course, But this would be a half-way solution, between a permanent monitoring link and no way to report a fault.

Okay well in that case, as a kind of belt and braces solution, I can't see why that wouldn't be a good idea. Even if it meant the Northern contact centre getting calls when they already knew a TVM was OOU, hopefully that might even speed up repairs

 

[Haywain]

The scheme includes a list of ticket office opening times and numbers of proposed TVM's at each station: 1 at each except Shipley (2) and Leeds (26 including smart walls and toddlers, whatever they are).

Looks like they have included the 16 VTEC machines at Leeds in that total. If they haven't, I can't imagine where they will put all the extras!

 

[jwos]

Northern are apparently starting issuing Penalty Fares on the Airedale and Wharfedale lines from Monday 19th February. Sure it’ll be as resounding a success for them as it was last time around.

 

[ASharpe]

- Passengers travelling on VTEC services can't be charged penalty fares.

Can a passenger who travels from Shipley to Leeds (for example) be issued a penalty fare at Leeds station by Northern if they ask to buy a ticket for the journey at Leeds station? My understanding was that they could.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Can a passenger who travels from Shipley to Leeds (for example) be issued a penalty fare at Leeds station by Northern if they ask to buy a ticket for the journey at Leeds station? My understanding was that they could.

Depends if Leeds is a Compulsory Ticket Area or not (in a CTA, a PF can be issued for merely being beyond the barriers without a valid ticket for travel or Platform Ticket or other authority). If it is yes they could, if it is not no they cannot, assuming they have travelled on a non-PF TOC.

I don't *think* Northern's scheme involves any CTAs. They don't really work at stations where there are non-PF TOCs.

 

[Merseysider]

No CTAs in this scheme. Only passengers using Northern can be PFd. Any other company’s customers may be in line for an £80 special instead

 

[Bletchleyite]

No CTAs in this scheme. Only passengers using Northern can be PFd. Any other company’s customers may be in line for an £80 special instead

I'd rather have a PF.

 

[furlong]

So can we take it that the DfT has now approved the use of the word 'fine' to refer to a Penalty Fare? (App. G)
The issued notice also fails to mention the 14-day 'stop the clock' provision and implies incorrectly that failure to pay is a criminal matter.

 

[johntea]

At Shipley station the other day via the Platform 1 entrance I saw several ‘Penalty fare station’ notices, although they weren’t exactly the largest of signs.

The TVM clearly did have the ‘No cash you can still use me to obtain a PTP’ message

However I have just passed through Bingley station which didn’t seem as obvious I was entering a ‘Penalty fare station’, and interestingly the TVM has both card and cash options but cash was out of order...but that meant promise to pay was totally absent from it too! So no way of acquiring a ticket other than on board in that scenario as it was past the ticket office opening hours, not that I needed one anyway as I was travelling on my pass.

 

[30907]

At Shipley station the other day via the Platform 1 entrance I saw several ‘Penalty fare station’ notices, although they weren’t exactly the largest of signs.

The TVM clearly did have the ‘No cash you can still use me to obtain a PTP’ message

However I have just passed through Bingley station which didn’t seem as obvious I was entering a ‘Penalty fare station’, and interestingly the TVM has both card and cash options but cash was out of order...but that meant promise to pay was totally absent from it too! So no way of acquiring a ticket other than on board in that scenario as it was past the ticket office opening hours, not that I needed one anyway as I was travelling on my pass.

Machines in booking office areas are more likely to take cash I think. Certainly those at Shipley do - the p1 machine there is pretty new (and long overdue IMO).

 

[johntea]

Sooo...what’s the payment limit for a Promise To Pay?!

(I obviously didn’t have a intention to purchase a Guiseley to London anytime first class return, cheaper fares were available anyway )

Rather funnily the guard then came down the train asking if anybody needed tickets rather than doing a full inspection...then assumed the passenger in my carriage who did need a ticket was wanting to pay by card! In fairness the passenger had acquired a Promise to Pay!

Also interesting on the outward Leeds to Guiseley journey a full inspection was carried out including an announcement it was a Penalty fare line!

 

[Merseysider]

Could that be something to do with money laundering? I can’t imagine why else they wouldn’t sell it from the machine

 

[Bletchleyite]

Could that be something to do with money laundering? I can’t imagine why else they wouldn’t sell it from the machine

Four hundred quid surely isn't enough for money laundering checks to kick in? Though train tickets would be an effective way of doing so, and it would only cost you a tenner in fees.

 

[island]

Nothing whatsoever to do with money laundering, which is up there with "data protection" and "safeguarding" as excuses for people who don't want to do something to throw around, without understanding them, to make people go away.

 

[najaB]

If it was cash then they likely just want to limit the amount of money in the machine to make it less attractive as a theft target.