Northern to introduce a Penalty fare scheme

[furlong]

Actually it's looks quite easy, under the Penalty Fares Rules:

7.3 An authorised collector must not charge a penalty fare under rule 6.2 if any of the following circumstances applied at the station where the person joined the relevant train.
a There were no facilities available to issue the appropriate ticket or other authority for the journey which that person wanted to make.

We now know that, unlike Permits to Travel, this Promise to Pay only acts as "other authority" for cash payments, so in other cases people should presumably just rely upon rule 7.3 as the appropriate ticket was not available.

 

[ainsworth74]

But I suppose in the case of not being able to buy a rover / season you might have to accept paying the single fare using the PTP at the first opportunity, and just make sure in future to renew in advance wherever possible.

So whenever anyone who wants to buy a rover from a station with either no ticket office or a closed ticket office they must now also buy a single to the first station where they can then buy the rover? That seems like a mighty backwards step to me!

I would hope that in general the fine folks that are Northern's guards will exercise discretion in these circumstances, and in the event of being confronted by a jobsworth contractor just keep calm, explain the situation and try to come to a reasonable conclusion. If the worst comes to the worst and that proves impossible, complain to Northern and ask for a refund citing all the circumstances, keeping copies of all correspondence in case of further dispute.

Indeed the problem isn't the Guards it's the contractors and the stories I've heard coming out of people who travel with Northern in the West (and it is worth noting that those of us in the East I think experience a very different Northern to those that are in the West) do not even remotely fill me with confidence that a 'reasonable conclusion' will be reached.

This could, of course, be avoided if Northern ensure that their Promise to Pay was able to cover situations beyond just 'I want to pay by cash and your TVM doesn't take it'.

 

[sheff1]

Once at a ticket machine, if the passenger wishes to pay by cash (or part cash part card) and the TVM does not accept cash then it clearly displays (see attached) to the passenger that they can still obtain a valid ticket to comply with the rules.

Although the first line says "No card ?", the body of the message says "If you don't have a credit card...". No mention of debit card. Many people who do not have credit card do have a debit card.

There really is no excuse for yet more misleading communication from Northern, although I expect someone will be along shortly to defend them because "it would cost more to add the extra text "or debit" to the message".

 

[Bantamzen]

So whenever anyone who wants to buy a rover from a station with either no ticket office or a closed ticket office they must now also buy a single to the first station where they can then buy the rover? That seems like a mighty backwards step to me!'

If the guards can sell them on-board I'm sure they will.

Although the first line says "No card ?", the body of the message says "If you don't have a credit card...". No mention of debit card. Many people who do not have credit card do have a debit card.

There really is no excuse for yet more misleading communication from Northern, although I expect someone will be along shortly to defend them because "it would cost more to add the extra text "or debit" to the message".

I've used debit cards in these machines, so they do accept them. Lots of resources these days just refer to credit cards, its just how things are. Most people understand that the Visa / MasterCard sign mean their corresponding cards are accepted.

 

[ainsworth74]

If the guards can sell them on-board I'm sure they will

But if I don't get a promise to pay I could get a Penalty Fare and if I do get one and try to pay by card I could get a Penalty Fare.

It isn't the guards that are the problem it's the wording of the Promise to Pay and the issue with contractors.

 

[sheff1]

I've used debit cards in these machines, so they do accept them. Lots of resources these days just refer to credit cards, its just how things are. Most people understand that the Visa / MasterCard sign mean their corresponding cards are accepted.

The message, as written, relates only to credit cards so whether the TVM can accept a debit card is neither here nor there. I do not know what the "lots of resources" you mention are, nor why they choose to ignore debit cards, but notices relating to Penalties, of any description, should be unambiguous. I repeat my view that there is no excuse for the misleading (and in some cases contradictory) communications put out by Northern concerning their PF scheme.

Regardless of what "most people understand", having the Visa logo on a card does not mean they are accepted. Indeed, I have seen many posters around the railway which clearly state that Electron cards (which do have the Visa logo on them) are not accepted.

 

[Bantamzen]

But if I don't get a promise to pay I could get a Penalty Fare and if I do get one and try to pay by card I could get a Penalty Fare.

It isn't the guards that are the problem it's the wording of the Promise to Pay and the issue with contractors.

Like I said, I'm sure if you wish to buy one on-board I"m sure they will sell you one if they can, even if you have a PTP and card

 

[Bantamzen]

The message, as written, relates only to credit cards so whether the TVM can accept a debit card is neither here nor there. I do not know what the "lots of resources" you mention are, and why they choose to ignore debit cards but Terms and Conditions relating to Penalties, of any description, should be unambiguous. I repeat my view that there is no excuse for the misleading (and in some cases contradictory) communications put out by Northern concerning their PF scheme.

Having "Visa" on a card does not mean they are accepted. Indeed, I have seen many posters around the railway which clearly state that Electron cards (which do have the Visa logo on them) are not accepted.

Like I said, they accept debit cards, I have used mine several times with the new style TVMs in Leeds. In fact if I recall correctly there is no mention of debit card on ones without the PF message, but it doesn't seem to deter people. And I have used many websites that ask for a credit card for payment, account set up etc that make no mention of debit cards but still accept them. As for Electron lots of places don't accept them. Come to think of it do guards go about wearing signs saying credit and debit cards accepted, except Electron? I'm sure they'd love that!

 

[Moonshot]

Like I said, I'm sure if you wish to buy one on-board I"m sure they will sell you one if they can, even if you have a PTP and card

Absolutely correct

 

[ainsworth74]

Like I said, I'm sure if you wish to buy one on-board I"m sure they will sell you one if they can, even if you have a PTP and card

And when it isn't a guard?

 

[Bantamzen]

And when it isn't a guard?

Then you use the PTP to purchase a single ticket to a point where you can buy the required pass I guess.

 

[ainsworth74]

Then you use the PTP to purchase a single ticket to a point where you can buy the required pass I guess.

A promise to pay is free so I'm confused how I can buy anything except a ticket? Which then means I'm buying a ticket and then the product I actually want with no assurance that the first ticket will either be refunded or offset as part payment.

Plus that means that I have to know whether I'll meet a friendly guard or of it'll be a contractor. Something I'm hardly likely to know in advance!

Or, they could amend the wording and/or ensure that there are other reasons available when selecting a promise to pay!

 

[sheff1]

Like I said, they accept debit cards..

I don't know if you are failing to get the point, or are deliberately ignoring it. Either way, there seems little point in continuing the 'discussion' as we are talking about completely different things.

 

[Bantamzen]

I'm sorry folks, but this continued angst about something so simple bemuses me. Whether its fretting about some wording or signage on tickets, worrying about how to buy specialist tickets that are still sold in the same way as before, or just generally being angry at Northern for changing something it seems some here are far more concerned than the average passenger. I can only suggest getting in touch with Northern to ask if they can produce an extensive guide to using stations and trains where the PF now exists. Or you could just follow the lead of tens of thousands of passengers a day and obtain a valid ticket or PTP before boarding, if required pay the guard and go on your way. Thank you.

 

[paddington]

Why couldn't they just have called it a permit to travel??

 

[Bantamzen]

Why couldn't they just have called it a permit to travel??

I don't know to be honest, it certainly would have saved some arguments. Perhaps because it might be confused with the older scheme that required a small payment, something that can't be done with the new TVMs?

 

[Tim R-T-C]

There was a chap at Steeton this morning handing out leaflets anout the scheme. I asked him about the TVM issue there (on second platform only, not visible to passengers heading to down platform from car park and no signage). He seemed unaware but said he would investigate and flag it up, so hopefully they will get something sorted there.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't know to be honest, it certainly would have saved some arguments. Perhaps because it might be confused with the older scheme that required a small payment, something that can't be done with the new TVMs?

A regular PERTIS also allows any method of payment.

I'm actually quite surprised you don't have to select your ticket and have the amount due printed on it.

I do think it's a good idea, by the way (indeed, I sort of suggested it here a while ago before Northern came up with it, as I think did others). It'll be interesting to see how well it works.

 

[Bantamzen]

A regular PERTIS also allows any method of payment.

Ah, I didn't know that. I don't recall ever having used one, so wasn't sure quite how they worked other than what I've seen here and elsewhere.

I'm actually quite surprised you don't have to select your ticket and have the amount due printed on it.

To be honest I kind of expected that you'd have to enter your journey details as if you were paying by card, but then just have a cash option which would print the required ticket details for the guard / RPO to then use to collect the correct fare. Maybe it is something they might want to look at in the future?

I do think it's a good idea, by the way (indeed, I sort of suggested it here a while ago before Northern came up with it, as I think did others). It'll be interesting to see how well it works.

It will, and like any new scheme it may well need some fine tuning. Northern are already tweaking their comms with automated announcements at stations now, in fact it actually prompted one passenger this morning sitting in the waiting room at Guiseley (having walked past both the open ticket office on P1 & TVM on P2) to go to the TVM to get a ticket! But I fully expect more tweaks during this trial period before it rolls out any further.

 

[Deerfold]

Well talking of jumping to conclusions, the new TVMs are this morning displaying full screen notices about the need to obtain a ticket or PTP before boarding. It also states quite clearly "No card? No problem" indicating that passengers without cards can still obtain a ticket from it. Its very noticeable even just wandering past the TVM, being in the same format as the posters & signs that went up a few weeks ago. And looking around the first of the day's 333 there seem to be more posters up too. Addtionally yesterday on approach to Leeds and on the way out in the evening both guards made clear announcements about it.

Of course I realise for some this won't be enough, but the message to me is quite clear. Don't board without some form of ticket.

Were these notices saying the scheme is now in operation? So did Northern just skip the requirement to give advance notice of the scheme at all affected stations?

This is what worries us - Northern already seem to be making the rules up as they go along on their side - I've no problem with a properly run PF scheme but that's not what we seem to be getting.

I finally saw my first notice at Keighley on the Skipton bound platform. It wasn't in a very obvious position and there were none at the entrance.

 

[Bantamzen]

Were these notices saying the scheme is now in operation? So did Northern just skip the requirement to give advance notice of the scheme at all affected stations?

This is what worries us - Northern already seem to be making the rules up as they go along on their side - I've no problem with a properly run PF scheme but that's not what we seem to be getting.

I finally saw my first notice at Keighley on the Skipton bound platform. It wasn't in a very obvious position and there were none at the entrance.

At the stations I use signs were up in advance of the scheme, all are at or close to entrances, and the notice on the TVM was live for the first train on day one. Additionally they did have one day handing out leaflets last week (and these are still in ticket offices), & there was a ton of stuff in local and social media. This also triggered discussion on local groups I'm involved with, so I'd say there was at least some advance notice. And from yesterday there were also automated announcements about the need to buy a ticket or get a PTP if paying with cash. Whether that will be enough for everyone I couldn't say, I'm sure that some people will arrive at stations totally unaware, but that will always be the case.

However one of the points I have been making is that with the exception of Baildon, all the stations concerned already had ticket machines so most people really should have been boarding trains with valid tickets before this started (it is possibly why the lines were chosen). And I have already seen one occasion already where a passenger with no ticket due to an issue with the TVM not printing their TODs had the guard actually offering to go with them to the barriers at Leeds to allow them to get through and sort the problem out at the ticket office. So there is clearly some leeway, as you would hope for being applied by staff at the very least. And the guards seem to be applying a sensible approach, as I thought they might.

As for Northern making up rules as they go along, I'm honestly not sure about that. They seem to have National Rail approval (the signs showing it being NR accredited), and I'm sure will be working with them to make this work, so if they were just doing their own thing you'd expect NR to pull them up? Anyway quite honestly the early signs seem to show business as usual, even the social media feeds so far seem to be lacking in any major qualms from passengers (and we know how quick people are to head for social media when unhappy). Its obviously too early to fully judge, but I do think they should at least be given chance to try, regardless of revenue protection issues historically.

 

[Deerfold]

One of the rules of a Penalty Fares Scheme is to have prominent signs announcing the scheme 3 weeks before it starts. They clearly haven't followed that rule. I've queried this on Northern's Facebook and Twitter pages and had no response.

As, I've said, I've no problem with a properly run scheme, but Northern aren't following the rules from the start. That's not a good sign.

I was at Ilkley today and saw 2 notices announcing the scheme and 1 normal sign. However it is possible to get to Platform 1 on a reasonable route without passing any of them.

On my Leeds - Keighley train last night there were no announcements about the scheme.

Do Keighley and Shipley have ticket machines outside the ticket office yet?

 

[moliones]

How does implementing this PF scheme really change things I wonder, given the existing requirement to purchase a ticket at the first opportunity.

If wanting to pay by card, previously, if you passed a TVM/office and (say) tried to purchase at destination, you could be offered one Northern's "Penalty Fakes", prosecuted, or just sold the appropriate ticket.
Now, you could be given a penalty fare (always costs less than a penalty fake?), prosecuted, or sold the appropriate ticket.

If wanting to pay by cash previously at a station with no cash-purchase facilities, you would buy onboard/at destination.
Now, if there is a TVM, you must get a PTP, then pay in cash onboard/at destination. If you don't get a PTP, they could issue PF, prosecute, or sell ticket anyway.

(Let's ignore perhaps purchase of tickets not available from TVM, or payment using RTV, though the latter perhaps could follow the same as cash payment above if the language is relaxed a bit?)

There could be other implications of course; if it becomes more difficult to buy onboard (guards not bothering to go and sell tickets, assuming everyone has already purchased, and trusting gatelines to catch anyone who didn't have one), that could lead to longer queues at destination, which might be less convenient for travellers, for example.


Have I got that about right?

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Has the Northern Penalty Fares Scheme actually been formally approved? Has anyone got/seen a copy of the formal approval? Does any such approval specify where they will place signs (i.e. in accordance with normal / approved practice), what publicity they will issue in advance (i.e. in accordance with normal / approved practice), that Promise to Pay instead or Permit to Travel must be obtained (i.e. most definitely not in accordance with normal / approved practice).

I have looked previously and could continue to search the internet every hour just in case it has recently appeared somewhere but I don't have that much time available.

 

[Starmill]

If you don't get a PTP, they could issue PF, prosecute, or sell ticket anyway.

A penalty fare would be a breach of the Penalty Fare rules. Prosecution would almost certainly fail if the person was offering to pay their fare and presenting the means to do so. A Byelaw prosecution could have a greater chance of success, but it could be argued that as the machine doesn't accept cash, it is not "in full working order". The only likely outcome is being sold a ticket.

 

[ainsworth74]

Anyway quite honestly the early signs seem to show business as usual, even the social media feeds so far seem to be lacking in any major qualms from passengers (and we know how quick people are to head for social media when unhappy). Its obviously too early to fully judge, but I do think they should at least be given chance to try, regardless of revenue protection issues historically.

Aren't we still at the point of issuing warnings that a Penalty Fare may be issued in future if you do this again (finger wags) rather than the stage of actually issuing Penalty Fares? I'm sure I read somewhere that December was going to be spent getting people used to it via a blanket policy of warnings (unless you're already on their database as having avoided a fare previously) with a true go live in January?

Assuming I've not got completely the wrong end of the stick I'm not sure we'll be hearing many complaints just yet.

 

[Starmill]

As, I've said, I've no problem with a properly run scheme, but Northern aren't following the rules from

Northern didn't follow the rules before they had a PF scheme, they made up their own to suit them better, as happened to me. It's no shock to anyone that they're not following the rules now that they have a PF scheme. Nor is it a shock that the DfT haven't enforced the rules properly. Such a shame on all fronts.

 

[Bantamzen]

Aren't we still at the point of issuing warnings that a Penalty Fare may be issued in future if you do this again (finger wags) rather than the stage of actually issuing Penalty Fares? I'm sure I read somewhere that December was going to be spent getting people used to it via a blanket policy of warnings (unless you're already on their database as having avoided a fare previously) with a true go live in January?

Assuming I've not got completely the wrong end of the stick I'm not sure we'll be hearing many complaints just yet.

To be honest I don't know, although I'm sure if people were even just getting a finger wagged at them some would still take to social media. Either way as said previously, so far there have been no additional revenue checks that I have seen just the usual peak ones so there really isn't much opportunity for that to be taking place.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Having just boarded a train at Keighley I can confirm:

There are no notices as you enter the station via either of the 2 ramps.
There are no notices inside or outside the ticket office.
There is no notice as you enter via the side gate from the college.

There are only 2 small notices I could see - each only about A3 size, or perhaps very slightly bigger. One was stuck to a window half way down the ramp to platform 1 and isn't immediately obvious. The other is on the wall at the bottom of the ramp onto platform 2.

As the Penalty Fare scheme rules, from memory, state you can only be issued a PF if the notices are on clear display at every entrance to the compulsory ticket area - which they are not - then anyone boarding at Keighley couldn't be issued a PF.

Furthermore the station only has one TVM which is inside the booking hall which is locked when the office is closed.

 

[Starmill]

I've just made a journey on a Northern train, the ticket office was closed and the ticket machine went out of order as the person ahead of me in the queue inserted their card. The member of staff then came over and told us that we should take pictures of the machine and get on the train. This really shocking, they clearly don't have any way of checking remotely if the machines work.