Northern to introduce a Penalty fare scheme

[Adlington]

This particular example says "pay in full by cash only". Is this by cash condition true for all PTP's ??

 

[Starmill]

Don't board without some form of ticket.

What about entrances without machines? What about tickets that aren't available from machines? What about methods of payment that aren't cards or cash, or payment by multiple methods? Each of these seems to be uncovered.

There is a reason that unstaffed stations are not supposed to be included in PF schemes except in exceptional circumstances. It isn't just that I like the idea.

It seems to have been set up without much integrity, so I will be interested to see how it survives.

 

[Merseysider]

You must pay this in full by cash only or you will incur a Penalty Fare.

So Rail Travel Vouchers and Warrants will incur a Penalty Fare?

 

[philthetube]

card stock for travel permits which are never going to be read by barriers but not for tickets, hmmmmmmmmmmm

 

[Starmill]

Also the website very clearly states that Penalty Fares do not apply at Cononley and Skipton, which seems a bit odd:

AT THIS TIME PENALTY FARES ONLY APPLY TO NORTHERN SERVICES ON THE AIREDALE AND WHARFEDALE LINES IN WEST YORKSHIRE.

https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/penalty-fares

I think this is contrary to news reports, although they did contained a large number of other inaccuracies.

 

[Bantamzen]

What about entrances without machines? What about tickets that aren't available from machines? What about methods of payment that aren't cards or cash, or payment by multiple methods? Each of these seems to be uncovered.

There is a reason that unstaffed stations are not supposed to be included in PF schemes except in exceptional circumstances. It isn't just that I like the idea.

It seems to have been set up without much integrity, so I will be interested to see how it survives.

Oh please give it a rest, your instance on searching for some possible reason for this to be something sinister is rapidly becoming tedious. I get it, you don't like Northern / Arriva for whatever reason and are looking for more reasons again. Meanwhile people on the two lines involved went about their business as usual, there were no massive issues, no sinister Northern contracted staff dragging people away for daring to walk past a TVM, no riots, no civil unrest. Just a minor change which required people without a ticket to obtain one before boarding.

But on your behalf,I have contacted the UN to deal with this blatant crime against humanity, although they did seem to hang up the phone....

 

[Starmill]

Oh please give it a rest, your instance on searching for some possible reason for this to be something sinister is rapidly becoming tedious.

My views are clear and consistent, and based on personal experience and logic. Yours are based on 'well it looks ok so shut up' and that's literally been your only point throughout this entire debate. If you dispute the facts of the situation that's entirely right and proper but I think that a) we've now exhausted that avenue and b) you've no right to demand other people's silence on the matter. The facts have not changed and the situation is broadly as I (and a great many others) predicted as far as we know. I would love to yet be proven wrong. If you dislike that then I'm afraid there's simply nothing further I can do for you, and I am unable to acquiesce to this request.

 

[yorkie]

Oh please give it a rest, your instance on searching for some possible reason for this to be something sinister is rapidly becoming tedious.

I'll put some balance in this debate to say I find the opposite view to be very tedious.

I get it, you don't like Northern / Arriva for whatever reason...

Have you not read this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/carlisle-security-and-northern-rail-major-concerns.156426/ ?! For "reasons"... how long have you got?!

Just a minor change which required people without a ticket to obtain one before boarding.

What do you mean by "obtain one", do you mean "a ticket" or "a promise to pay notice"?

(If you mean the former, people already were!)

But on your behalf,I have contacted the UN to deal with this blatant crime against humanity, although they did seem to hang up the phone....

Northern are not taking any interest in addressing the issues contained in the thread I linked to above. I'm not sure why you are defending them so much. Do you agree there are serious concerns?

Also you've attempted to deflect away from Starmill's questions. Is there some reason for this?

 

[Bantamzen]

My views are clear and consistent, and based on personal experience and logic. Yours are based on 'well it looks ok so shut up' and that's literally been your only point throughout this entire debate. If you dispute the facts of the situation that's entirely right and proper but I think that a) we've now exhausted that avenue and b) you've no right to demand other people's silence on the matter. The facts have not changed and the situation is broadly as I (and a great many others) predicted as far as we know. I would love to yet be proven wrong. If you dislike that then I'm afraid there's simply nothing further I can do for you, and I am unable to acquiesce to this request.

Logic? I use the lines in question every day, and with the exception of my home station every station on the lines have had one or more methods to buy a ticket prior to boarding for some time. Indeed it is probably for this very reason that these lines were chosen to start the trial of the the scheme. And it has long been advertised to buy before boarding whenever possible, and amazingly this is what the vast majority of passengers have done for some time. In other words for most passengers nothing has changed. Get to station, get ticket, get on train.

Yet you continue to decry the scheme, citing location of TVMs, signs/posters, even the wording as reason to suggest that this is some bizarre scheme to further victimize passengers. All based on the negative experience of a handful of accounts, some of which the full circumstances are not fully known. And you talk about logic? Tell me, if you arrive at a car park with charges, do you expect a machine to pay next to the parking slot you use? If you pick up items at a supermarket, do you expect a payment point on the same isle? Believe it or not most people use their several pounds of grey matter and locate a point of payment.

I am sorry to be blunt, but your constant moaning about Northern feels to be on the same level as the constant moaning on social media about the trains always being late / cancelled / dirty etc etc. Yet the vast majority of Northern trains I catch are on time, in reasonable condition etc etc. Moaning about Northern seems to be a social media sport, and one sir you seem to be very adept at. Sadly just because a minority make lots of noise doesn't make it all true. Most people however use Northern every day without issue. For goodness sake the scheme hasn't been running 24 hours yet, a fraction of the time you've been belly aching about it.

 

[Bantamzen]

I'll put some balance in this debate to say I find the opposite view to be very tedious.

Have you not read this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/carlisle-security-and-northern-rail-major-concerns.156426/ ?! For "reasons"... how long have you got?!

What do you mean by "obtain one", do you mean "a ticket" or "a promise to pay notice"?

(If you mean the former, people already were!)

Northern are not taking any interest in addressing the issues contained in the thread I linked to above. I'm not sure why you are defending them so much. Do you agree there are serious concerns?

Also you've attempted to deflect away from Starmill's questions. Is there some reason for this?

Yorkie, with the greatest respect you display the same bias against Northern as Starmill does. Indeed you both now share the same signature picture. So allow me to reiterate, I have never had any of the kind of problems discussed in that thread, nor have I seen or heard of others that I know having so. I'm sorry but my experience with Northern is very different, and I expect the same is true of most others. I have seen many a complaint in social media of course, but like local media sites after a while the same names pop up time and again.

So again with respect, you will forgive me for being more than a bit cynical about the supposed wave of opposition to Northern. And I hope you will forgive me for thinking the moaning about the scheme has been going on far longer than it has been in operation.

 

[Sprinter153]

With the in cash only restriction printed on the Promise to Pay, if I intend to buy a Priv discounted fare (which cannot be obtained from a TVM) paying by card, should I or should I not get a Promise to Pay?

 

[Starmill]

So again with respect, you will forgive me for being more than a bit cynical about the supposed wave of opposition to Northern. And I hope you will forgive me for thinking the moaning about the scheme has been going on far longer than it has been in operation.

You have simply ignored the questions about the holes in the scheme that I put, choosing instead to be cynical (as you put it) and complain about me choosing to ask questions. That's fine, but I'm not going to not ask questions as a result of it.

You ignored the questions because you have no answers. These holes do not exist in other Penalty Fares schemes, but they do in Northern's. Other operators don't allow contracted out staff to deal with revenue and customer service, but Northern are. You have no response to this, and I'm not quite convinced you understand the issues. You're lucky because you haven't had personal experiences of the defects I have pointed out, but you don't have any real evidence that they aren't problems. You can throw around accusations of bias all you like, but that doesn't change the fact that some Penalty Fare schemes operate with a high degree of integrity. None of these other schemes involve 'promise to pay notices' or the use of Carlirlse Services staff though. Do you really think that that's bias? Or that Northern have thought up a clever scheme that no other operator has? Or that, in fact, there really is a difference between the approach in question here and ones that actually works, is legally and morally defensible, and doesn't damage passenger rights, which has been my point all along?

 

[Starmill]

With the in cash only restriction printed on the Promise to Pay, if I intend to buy a Priv discounted fare (which cannot be obtained from a TVM) paying by card, should I or should I not get a Promise to Pay?

Presumably you would get one if you wish to pay in cash, and not if you wish to pay some other way. I can't see how else that would work.

 

[sheff1]

Me!

(Nicked it off twitter for the record)

So here we have the proof that Northern's PF scheme is not being implemented properly. Someone wishing to pay by RTVs should not be issued with a PF.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

With the in cash only restriction printed on the Promise to Pay, if I intend to buy a Priv discounted fare (which cannot be obtained from a TVM) paying by card, should I or should I not get a Promise to Pay?

Presumably you would get one if you wish to pay in cash, and not if you wish to pay some other way. I can't see how else that would work.

I assume the general rules published by rail staff travel apply:

"Privilege Travel in general: How to buy a Priv ticket, and what to do if this is not possible
Just as for the general public, you must have a valid ticket before you start a journey.
If you wish to travel using a privilege rate (Q-rate) ticket, you must buy that ticket from a ticket office. At present it is not possible to buy them online, by phone, or from ticket machines.
If the ticket office is closed and it is therefore not possible to purchase the privilege rate ticket to which you are entitled, there are two option, depending on the station at which your journey commences:
1. If the station is in a Penalty Fare Zone (this will be clearly indicated by posters) then you must buy a Permit to Travel from a PERTIS machine. The fee/fare paid at the machine will then be deducted from the eventual privilege rate fare that you pay either on the train or at your destination.
2. If the station is not in a Penalty Fare Zone, you must have your fare ready and offer to pay it at the first available opportunity: on entry to the platform, on the train, or when exiting at your destination. By doing so, ie offering to pay, there can be no question that you are trying to travel without paying. If you don’t offer to pay, then you could be accused of fare avoidance."

Obviously this makes no reference to a Promise to Pay, but I assume that would be considered similar to a Pertis, and in this case, as the ticket you actually wished to purchase was not available from the machine however you wished to pay, then you present you PTP and pay by whatever means you have.

 

[BurtonM]

Why couldn't they just keep Permit to Travel?

 

[Starmill]

Why couldn't they just keep Permit to Travel?

Good question. The defeniton of Permit to Travel in the NRCoT clearly doesn't apply though, as there's a four hour time limit, not a two hour one.

Also, there are a lot of unstaffed EMT stations where there isn't a Permit to Travel machine that are included in Penalty Fare schemes (unacceptably in my view but apparently DfT are satisfied). What does someone wanting to buy a Priv ticket do then? Is the guidance simply silent?

 

[island]

I am sure “in cash” is a matter of brevity and implies only that passengers wishing to pay by card should have bought their ticket from the TVM in the first place.

There is a reason that unstaffed stations are not supposed to be included in PF schemes except in exceptional circumstances. It isn't just that I like the idea.

What is that reason, and is it based on an official document or publication of some sort, or is it just another thing you don’t like?

 

[Bantamzen]

You have simply ignored the questions about the holes in the scheme that I put, choosing instead to be cynical (as you put it) and complain about me choosing to ask questions. That's fine, but I'm not going to not ask questions as a result of it.

You ignored the questions because you have no answers. These holes do not exist in other Penalty Fares schemes, but they do in Northern's. Other operators don't allow contracted out staff to deal with revenue and customer service, but Northern are. You have no response to this, and I'm not quite convinced you understand the issues. You're lucky because you haven't had personal experiences of the defects I have pointed out, but you don't have any real evidence that they aren't problems. You can throw around accusations of bias all you like, but that doesn't change the fact that some Penalty Fare schemes operate with a high degree of integrity. None of these other schemes involve 'promise to pay notices' or the use of Carlirlse Services staff though. Do you really think that that's bias? Or that Northern have thought up a clever scheme that no other operator has? Or that, in fact, there really is a difference between the approach in question here and ones that actually works, is legally and morally defensible, and doesn't damage passenger rights, which has been my point all along?

What holes? The fact that Northern haven't put ticket machines at every entrance to a station (remembering of course that you were recently spitting feathers at the prospect of any machines going in certain stations)? The resolution to that is simple, as passengers we are obliged to obtain a valid ticket before boarding. And this was always the case where either a ticket office or TVM(s) were available. So on arriving at a station and observing the signs informing passengers that they must obtain a ticket at either a ticket office or ticket machine, therefore the obvious thing to do is to look for one. For the majority of stations they are quite easy to find as they conveniently have the word "Ticket" on them, giving the passenger a reasonable clue as to it's function. In the case where a ticket cannot be issued due to fault or closure, then the next course of action would be to seek the advice of the guard, or perhaps use the help point on the platform or contact the operator by phone / social media. As it always was.

Once at a ticket machine, if the passenger wishes to pay by cash (or part cash part card) and the TVM does not accept cash then it clearly displays (see attached) to the passenger that they can still obtain a valid ticket to comply with the rules.

View media item 2966
We've seen what the PTP look like, that they have the time of issue & location to allow the guards to issue the correct fare on board. And as mentioned yesterday, I overheard a guard assisting a passenger who had an issue with a TVM to ensure that they could collect their TOD at Leeds. So clearly guards at the very least still have the option to use common sense when a genuine issue arise. Now if at some juncture a passenger with a genuine problem encounters a member of contracted-out staff who unjustly issues a PF, then that I agree is an issue. I have said before that I am against the use of contracted-out staff, all revenue protection work should be done by employees of Northern with full training. However I have also said that in many years of commuting, I have never encountered a genuine case of such a thing, but have witnessed people trying it on. That's not to say it doesn't happen of course, and where it does I hope those with genuine complaint make representation to Northern and that they act accordingly. However just because a few bad encounters have happened does not mean that this new scheme is doomed from the start as you portray. Fare evasion has been rife for many years on Northern routes, and that has an impact on revenue, which in turn impacts on ticket prices, stock procurement, wages, even required subsidies.You cannot simply brush the problem under the carpet by waving past every punter claiming that they have had a problem. Word would still get around and exploits would be widely used.

Northern / Arriva as part of their franchise agreement are required to make more concerted efforts to plug these real holes. And so they are trialling this in an area where the requirement for procuring a ticket before travel has long been in place, if not fully enforced for all but one station. So its an ideal opportunity to iron out any problems, train all revenue staff correctly and gauge public reaction. I'm sure you'll be keeping a keen eye on social media feeds for signs of discontent & reports of harassment, as will I. However I will repeat what I have been banging on about from the start, for the vast majority of passengers this is a non-issue. Sorry but there it is. There will of course always be those kicking off about it, and from my past career experience of public facing work many of those will have agendas or be the ones trying to work around the system.

I don't feel the need to further address your concerns, partly because I feel that the solutions are obvious to the vast majority of passengers, and partly because I still believe your views are heavily tainted for whatever reason Northern riles you so. If huge numbers of genuine complaints emerge, then I will be as concerned as you. But a very anecdotal glance of the day one operation seemed to show business as usual. It does seem that Northern are still tweaking communications, this morning a clear message was repeated over the tannoys at Guiseley about the need to obtain a valid ticket before boarding, and I presume this will be repeated across the stations involved.

 

[furlong]

Good question. The defeniton of Permit to Travel in the NRCoT clearly doesn't apply though, as there's a four hour time limit, not a two hour one.

Indeed - until they update the Conditions of Travel (or fix their new scheme) 6.3(a) may provide anyone with a loophole, as there is no "working Permit to Travel issuing machine" under the "not more than 2 hours" definition of "Permit to Travel".

 

[ainsworth74]

I am sure “in cash” is a matter of brevity and implies only that passengers wishing to pay by card should have bought their ticket from the TVM in the first place.

Agreed, assuming that there is the option to choose a different reason for getting a Promise to Pay. For example if I want to buy say a season ticket at a station with a ticket office that is shut can I get a Promise to Pay which covers such a scenario? Or do I get one of the type already listed and potentially PF'd when I try to buy my season ticket using a card?! Similarly with Rovers.

If there is an option at some stage that results in a Promise to Pay printing with wording that covers a situation where the ticket needed is not available then, personally, I don't have a problem with the idea.

 

[Bantamzen]

I'm just going to leave this here (from the National Rail site):

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46592.aspx

What are Penalty Fares?
The Penalty Fares System is designed to protect the majority of customers from the minority of people who travel without a valid ticket for the journey they are making.

Train operators can reduce the number of people who travel without a ticket in a number of ways.

On long-distance trains, it is often possible for the on-board staff to check every passenger's ticket. On rural routes, trains stop more often but as they usually have fewer coaches and carry a smaller number of passengers, on-board ticket checks can also be effective.

However, on urban and suburban routes, where station stops are frequent and the trains are often busy, it is not always possible to check every passenger's ticket between every station.

In the past, tickets have been inspected by staff at ticket barriers but it is very expensive to provide staff at every ticket barrier and also inconvenient for passengers. An alternative is to operate a 'Penalty Fares' scheme.

How do Penalty Fares work?
A Penalty Fare scheme works on the same principle as a 'pay and display' car park, where motorists may have to pay a penalty if they do not buy a ticket when they park.

Where Penalty Fares apply, rail passengers must buy their tickets before they start their journey wherever there are facilities for them to do so. If a passenger gets on a train without a ticket at a station where ticket facilities are available, they will have to pay a Penalty Fare if asked to do so by a ticket inspector who has been appointed as an 'authorised collector'.

When can Penalty Fares be issued?
Penalty Fares can be issued if a passenger:

• travels without a valid ticket
• is unable to produce an appropriate railcard on a discounted ticket
• travels in first class accommodation with a standard ticket
• is aged 16 or over, travelling on a child rate ticket
• travels beyond the destination on their ticket

How much does a Penalty Fare cost?
The penalty is £20 or twice the full single fare from the station where the passenger got on the train to the next station at which the train stops, whichever is the greater.

If the passenger wants to travel beyond the next station, they must also pay the relevant fare from that station to their final destination.

Where do Penalty Fares apply?
Penalty Fares apply if you travelling from a Penalty Fare station.

Penalty Fare stations are all clearly indicated as such by means of signs and large yellow posters. Your local train company will also be able to advise.

How do I avoid a Penalty Fare?
To avoid paying a Penalty Fare, you must purchase a valid ticket to your destination for the class of travel you wish to use before starting your journey.

If you are unable to do so, you must buy a Permit to Travel from the machines that are provided at most stations. This permit must be upgraded to a valid ticket at the first opportunity.

If you are unable to purchase a Permit to Travel, you should obtain a ticket from the Conductor on the train or at the first opportunity.

Now I know what argument is coming, the Northern scheme calls it a Promise To Pay rather than Permit To Travel. But regardless of the naming, the principle is the same. Obtain a valid ticket / PTT / PTP before boarding, then if using either of the remainder you must then pay for the remainder or whole cost of the ticket at the first opportunity. In the case of the Aire / Wharfe trial this might be onboard, or possibly at the destination. If a train rolls into Leeds in the peaks packed to the gills, it is reasonable to assume that the guard might not have been able to pass through all carriages in which case revenue staff should be expected to allow people to queue for tickets. If however a train rolls in with 15 people jumping off, it would be reasonable to assume that the guard would have made themselves available so anyone queuing thereafter for a ticket might be asked why revenue staff.

 

[ainsworth74]

Obtain a valid ticket / PTT / PTP before boarding, then if using either of the remainder you must then pay for the remainder or whole cost of the ticket at the first opportunity.

But if I want to buy a rover (which won't be available from the TVM) using a card and then present a Promise to Pay that says 'You must pay this in full by cash only or you will incur a Penalty Fare' surely I will then get a Penalty Fare. Whilst if I had presented a Permit to Travel I'd have been fine. Similarly if I wanted to buy a season ticket? I'll be showing a Promise to Pay requiring me to pay by cash when I actually want to use a card but can't because the machine doesn't sell the ticket!

 

[island]

Agreed, assuming that there is the option to choose a different reason for getting a Promise to Pay. For example if I want to buy say a season ticket at a station with a ticket office that is shut can I get a Promise to Pay which covers such a scenario? Or do I get one of the type already listed and potentially PF'd when I try to buy my season ticket using a card?! Similarly with Rovers.

If there is an option at some stage that results in a Promise to Pay printing with wording that covers a situation where the ticket needed is not available then, personally, I don't have a problem with the idea.

You would use the current process which involves purchasing a single ticket to cover at least part of your journey and then part-exchanging it on the train or at your interchange point or destination.

 

[ainsworth74]

You would use the current process which involves purchasing a single ticket to cover at least part of your journey and then part-exchanging it on the train or at your interchange point or destination.

Hasn't that been deleted from the NRCoT?

 

[northwichcat]

I'm not sure the idea of buying a single ticket to cover at least part of your journey has even been promoted in the North. I even think some of the old style ticket machines, which only sold tickets to a limited number of destinations, had notices saying for other destinations buy from the ticket office/guard on the train (depending if the station had a ticket office or not.)

 

[Bantamzen]

But if I want to buy a rover (which won't be available from the TVM) using a card and then present a Promise to Pay that says 'You must pay this in full by cash only or you will incur a Penalty Fare' surely I will then get a Penalty Fare. Whilst if I had presented a Permit to Travel I'd have been fine. Similarly if I wanted to buy a season ticket? I'll be showing a Promise to Pay requiring me to pay by cash when I actually want to use a card but can't because the machine doesn't sell the ticket!

As I understand it you would either have to get a PTP and then ask the guard to sell you a rover, or if they cannot buy a single to a station that can. Sorry I don't know enough about these to suggest anything else. As for season tickets, the same applies. Get a PTP, then ask the guard for a season ticket onboard as usual and if they cannot then the same again, buy single to the nearest station where they are available. The PTP is designed for people wanting to use cash, but I cannot see guards refusing to sell tickets not available via TVMs presenting a PTP to them. On reflection maybe it does need re-wording before the trial period is over, but Northern guards still as far as I can see still accept card payments where required. Saying that as an MCard user I never reach the point that it runs out, always ensuring that I renew at least a day in advance. I haven't ever used a rail only season ticket but I presume that they can be renewed in advance from at least a ticket office, if not from the guards?

 

[ainsworth74]

As I understand it you would either have to get a PTP and then ask the guard to sell you a rover, or if they cannot buy a single to a station that can. Sorry I don't know enough about these to suggest anything else. As for season tickets, the same applies. Get a PTP, then ask the guard for a season ticket onboard as usual and if they cannot then the same again, buy single to the nearest station where they are available. The PTP is designed for people wanting to use cash, but I cannot see guards refusing to sell tickets not available via TVMs presenting a PTP to them. On reflection maybe it does need re-wording before the trial period is over, but Northern guards still as far as I can see still accept card payments where required.

It's not really Northern Guards that I'm concerned about (a finer group of people etc etc ) but the contractors that are actually going to be issuing the Penalty Fares. With the instruction as written on the Promise to Pay I have grave concerns that someone will be Penalty Fared by one of them for trying to buy a ticket that wasn't available from the TVM, getting a Promise to Pay and then trying to pay by card. The instruction on the Promise to Pay isn't really open to interpretation!

I can certainly see why it's written as is but if that's a blanket statement with no variation (in a different circumstance it could be issued to say 'you must buy a season ticket at the first opportunity or you will be issued a Penalty Fare' for example) then I think that's a problem and is going to cause issues for passengers.

Saying that as an MCard user I never reach the point that it runs out, always ensuring that I renew at least a day in advance. I haven't ever used a rail only season ticket but I presume that they can be renewed in advance from at least a ticket office, if not from the guards?

Sure (but usually only a few days in advance) but what if you've never bought a season ticket before? Plus plenty of people on weekly tickets will usually buy them on the first train on Monday morning (or a ticket office if available).

 

[furlong]

Don't forget:

6.1 We will ensure that you have a reasonable opportunity to purchase your Ticket before you travel.

and you might argue the company is in breach of that obligation where it has chosen neither to provide an open ticket office nor machines selling the full range of tickets - we know that machines exist elsewhere on the network that can sell tickets from other stations and rangers/rovers - and that this justifies a consequent breach of 6.3 where no such reasonable opportunity was provided.

 

[Bantamzen]

It's not really Northern Guards that I'm concerned about (a finer group of people etc etc ) but the contractors that are actually going to be issuing the Penalty Fares. With the instruction as written on the Promise to Pay I have grave concerns that someone will be Penalty Fared by one of them for trying to buy a ticket that wasn't available from the TVM, getting a Promise to Pay and then trying to pay by card. The instruction on the Promise to Pay isn't really open to interpretation!

I can certainly see why it's written as is but if that's a blanket statement with no variation (in a different circumstance it could be issued to say 'you must buy a season ticket at the first opportunity or you will be issued a Penalty Fare' for example) then I think that's a problem and is going to cause issues for passengers.

Well so far, and it is only early days I know, but I've seen no extra revenue checks where you might expect them (Leeds in the morning peak for example). But I suppose in the case of not being able to buy a rover / season you might have to accept paying the single fare using the PTP at the first opportunity, and just make sure in future to renew in advance wherever possible. When I first started using my MCard I had to do exactly this when I realised I hadn't renewed in time. So it was a single from Baildon to Guiseley (this was before the TVM went in there), but on arrival the TVM was down so I had to buy a single to Leeds and renew there instead. The lesson was quickly learned I can tell you!!

Sure (but usually only a few days in advance) but what if you've never bought a season ticket before? Plus plenty of people on weekly tickets will usually buy them on the first train on Monday morning (or a ticket office if available).

Well generally you're going to need either a) A photocard or b) Smartcard, neither of which you can get via the guards or TVMs. So again it would be the single to a ticket office I guess. There are always going to be circumstances that are not covered by Northern's published rules. I would hope that in general the fine folks that are Northern's guards will exercise discretion in these circumstances, and in the event of being confronted by a jobsworth contractor just keep calm, explain the situation and try to come to a reasonable conclusion. If the worst comes to the worst and that proves impossible, complain to Northern and ask for a refund citing all the circumstances, keeping copies of all correspondence in case of further dispute. The long term reality is that if this works, and Northern find they don't need as many contractors then the problem may organically disappear anyway.