Northern to introduce a Penalty fare scheme

[Gareth Marston]

You have toilets as well as ticket offices at category E stations in Wales! In the North we're lucky if a C2 category station has toilets and if a category E station does have a ticket office it'll close at around 1pm on weekdays and might not open at all at the weekends.

Unless they tell you they plan to buy a ticket on the train how do you know that the people who turn up and don't buy a ticket don't already have a ticket?

Easy because I know the Conductors and Barrier Staff at Shrewsbury sell tickets from Newtown when were open, quite a few conductors ask me on the platform when a train comes in especially on a Saturday morning "how many did I get"? and we identify which carriage the people who didn't come in have boarded. Saturdays are noticeably worse for it. I also travel myself as do family members my daughter commutes to Shrewsbury so we all see it. You get to know the type - they tend to be younger under 30's on the whole. Ive heard conversations just outside the office door of people pulling their friends back from entering and telling them they can buy it on the train - if the bloke comes round.

Groups going off often start with a couple arriving early and hanging around waiting on the others arriving, you can usually spot these forming up and be proactive and get them to come in office explaining that they don't have to wait on everybody to get a group discount tickets as these can be sold individually.

The regulars are also quite good about reporting people who they think (know) are fare dodging including work colleagues!

 

[xotGD]

So if a person picks up a 'promise to pay' at Steeton, the guard doesn't come round, they get off at Saltaire and go on their way, when do they fulfill their 'promise'?

 

[Gareth Marston]

So if a person picks up a 'promise to pay' at Steeton, the guard doesn't come round, they get off at Saltaire and go on their way, when do they fulfill their 'promise'?

No none 100% closed system is going to capture every last scenario get over it. What the intention is , is to move a lot nearer to 100% by closing off the largest leaks which are into/ out of the big centres. Its simple no ticket straight to £20.00 Penalty Fare don't pay it and then there's consequences.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So if a person picks up a 'promise to pay' at Steeton, the guard doesn't come round, they get off at Saltaire and go on their way, when do they fulfill their 'promise'?

They won't. But they will have two uses:
1. Conclusive proof of a passenger's origin and that cash payment was genuinely not an option at their origin.
2. If they leave the station without paying and there is a destination ticket office, they have evidently failed to fulfil their promise and further action can be taken.

They're basically Permits to Travel issued for free.

 

[Gareth Marston]

They won't. But they will have two uses:
1. Conclusive proof of a passenger's origin and that cash payment was genuinely not an option at their origin.
2. If they leave the station without paying and there is a destination ticket office, they have evidently failed to fulfil their promise and further action can be taken.

They're basically Permits to Travel issued for free.

These will be a drop in the ocean compared to Mr Short Fare and Little Miss Pay When Challegened that get nipped in the bud at the gates in Leeds.

 

[xotGD]

These will be a drop in the ocean compared to Mr Short Fare and Little Miss Pay When Challegened that get nipped in the bud at the gates in Leeds.

As I said upthread, it is a 'proof of where you got on' rather than a 'promise to pay'.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I can't help but feel Hanlon's Razor applies here:

I think now it does. But Alex Hynes did the groundwork for this, and he was the one behind the subcontracting to unsavoury companies. Now Alex Hynes' ego could power the National Grid, but he's not stupid.

I think a lot of this is deliberate. When PTE fares are so low, Penalty Fares become very lucrative...

 

[Cantab26]

So if a person picks up a 'promise to pay' at Steeton, the guard doesn't come round, they get off at Saltaire and go on their way, when do they fulfill their 'promise'?

I pay the fare when I am next at a booking office if I have been unable to purchase a ticket before boarding, during the journey and at the destination.

I suppose you could send a postal order and covering letter to head office. I might do that some time just to see what happens!

 

[Cantab26]

I can't decide whether Northern regard themselves as above the law (or rules / regulations), are hopelessly incompetent or are simply thick. Any suggestions?

Choose any three.

 

[Merseysider]

So if a person picks up a 'promise to pay' at Steeton, the guard doesn't come round, they get off at Saltaire and go on their way, when do they fulfill their 'promise'?

I personally wouldn’t.

If Northern don’t offer tickets before, during or after the journey then I’m not going to waste any of my time after the fact. Same as when a bus driver’s machine is broken and he can’t sell tickets for cash, no passenger wanting to pay is turned away, and they are not expected to pay afterwards.

I actually wrote in to TPE once, offering them a cheque for the £1.30 fare I’d been unable to pay in similar circumstances, just to see what they’d say, and the offer was turned down

 

[Baxenden Bank]

As I said upthread, it is a 'proof of where you got on' rather than a 'promise to pay'.

'Promise to Pay' is probably a better phrase to use than 'permit to travel' from a customer viewpoint. Permit to travel could easily be misinterpreted, if you were so inclined, to mean 'but this ticket permits me to travel, why should I now pay'. In legal terms it permits you to travel without complying with the normal requirement of buying a ticket before you board.

 

[ainsworth74]

I suppose you could send a postal order and covering letter to head office. I might do that some time just to see what happens!

On the odd occasion that I've travelled and not been able to buy a ticket (no TVM at origin and no ticket office/TVM at destination) I have idly wondered what Customer Services would do if I sent a request for an invoice for travel to them.

 

[johntea]

Based on the fact I’m still waiting on a £1.60 refund from VTEC almost a month and a half later I think you’ll be waiting a while for the financial team to process something like that!

 

[lejog]

If someone has actual evidence that the requirements for the introduction of the scheme have not been met in a significant way, make sure the DfT is aware as they might then have to postpone the scheme's introduction until the company complies.

Guess who's mandating Northern implement the scheme, yes the very same DfT. The Franchise Agreement says that Northern will:

use best endeavours to implement Penalty Fare Zones on 60% of all Routes by 31 December 2019 and on all remaining Routes by 31 December 2022. The
Franchisee shall be responsible for obtaining any approval required under Section 130 of the Act prior to the implementation of the Penalty Fare Zone

So presumably Penalty Fares are coming to the likes of the Cumbria Coast and Settle-Carlisle, as well as Leeds-Goole and the Denton Flyer.

 

[Moonshot]

Guess who's mandating Northern implement the scheme, yes the very same DfT. The Franchise Agreement says that Northern will:



So presumably Penalty Fares are coming to the likes of the Cumbria Coast and Settle-Carlisle, as well as Leeds-Goole and the Denton Flyer.

I guess the Denton Flyer penalty fare would be a " badge of honour " for some enthusiasts!! But that aside, I simply cant see how that could be enforced. Oddly enough last time I worked it ( in fact the only time ) , there were about a dozen or so onboard who had all gotten tickets at Stockport.

 

[Hadders]

So presumably Penalty Fares are coming to the likes of the Cumbria Coast and Settle-Carlisle, as well as Leeds-Goole and the Denton Flyer.

Maybe they're hoping to close the Denton line before the end of 2022.....

 

[northwichcat]

Based on my experience of the new TVMs there's a 25% chance it'll either be out-of-order or take itself out-of-order when you insert a payment card. So until they improve the reliability of the machines a penalty fare scheme applying to any station where there's only a single TVM is completely inappropriate.

 

[Bletchleyite]

SBB has Penalty Fares (rather heftier than ours, too, and with far fewer valid excuses, too) on their entire network, and they have plenty of lines that are a bit S&C esque. So I don't see why it can't be done. They have a TVM at every station pretty much without exception, even the small ones (crikey, even a full S&B machine at tiny funicular stations). Though personally I can see a case for some of the smaller lines to be Paytrains, clearly branded as such.

 

[Adlington]

but not in West Yorkshire or South Yorkshire.

Penalty trial to tackle West Yorkshire train fare evaders

Northern is getting ready to launch the latest phase of its campaign to encourage all customers to buy their travel before they board the train.

The latest phase of the campaign is to introduce the nationally-recognised penalty fares system on the Airedale and Wharfedale lines in West and North Yorkshire.

From 6 December, customers travelling without a ticket on a Northern train anywhere between Leeds and Bradford Forster Square, Leeds/Bradford and Ilkley, or Leeds/Bradford and Skipton, could face a penalty fare of £20.

Paul Barnfield, Regional Director for Northern, said: “Sadly there is still a minority who believe they have a right to travel without buying a ticket. Their actions reduce the overall income of the rail industry and, as a result, reduces the money available to invest in further improvements to the railway.

“Everyone who travels by train should have a valid ticket or pass. Or must be able to demonstrate they have made every effort to buy a ticket before they boarded.

“If they are unable to do either of these then, from 6 December, our authorised collectors will be on hand at stations along the routes to either issue £20 fines or ask customers to pay double the cost of a single ticket to their destination.”


Paul added: “We have invested in new state-of-the-art ticket machines at all stations on the Airedale and Wharfedale lines. These machines offer a full range of fares – including discounts.

“With online and mobile ticketing, as well as ticket offices at our staffed stations, there is really no reason for anyone to board a train without a valid ticket.

“For customers who want to pay by cash, our ticket machines will issue Promise to Pay notices which can be exchanged (along with a cash payment) for a ticket when on board the service or at the next available ticket office.”

 

[Deerfold]

I suggest you read Chiltern's PF leaflet, particularly the part that clarifies:-

Penalty Fare is a charge that Chiltern Railways is allowed
to make under the Regulations and Rules. It is not a fine, and
anyone who is charged one is not being accused of avoiding,
or attempting to avoid, paying their fare.

‘Fare dodging’ is a completely different matter: it is a criminal
offence and we treat it as such by prosecuting offenders.

I keep seeing this claim. It certainly seems to be Chiltern's view, but it's not industry-wide.

London Midland don't claim this and say

"What if there’s a long queue at the Ticket Office? This is the reason for not purchasing a ticket most frequently used by those with no intention of paying. It makes it impossible for us to distinguish a genuine from a dishonest case and a Penalty Fare will normally be issued.

https://www.londonmidland.com/-/med...pdfs/revisedpenaltyfaresbooklet-1-1.pdf?la=en

Southern and co don't claim it's not aimed at criminals.

https://www.thameslinkrailway.com/-...ments/penalty_fare_leaflet_nov_2016.pdf?la=en

Nor does GWR.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&r...v2.pdf?la=en&usg=AOvVaw1TfiAfLH1F3vUtjyOijRLS

Nothing from Southeastern:

https://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk/help-and-contact/help/faqs/penalty-fares

The DfT seems to think they *are* aimed at deliberate fare dodgers:

Rail Minister Paul Maynard said:

Fare dodgers cost the railways £240 million every year and this bill is picked up by honest passengers in the form of higher rail fares. Penalty fares are imposed to deter those seeking a free ride...

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/dft-reforms-penalty-fares-to-better-protect-rail-passengers

As do Southwestern:

We operate a penalty fares scheme for three reasons:
1. To build upon the public support of the principle of tackling fare evaders;
2. To encourage passengers to buy a ticket before their journey, rather than to wait until they have to, or are challenged to do so; and
3. To reduce fraudulent travel. For example, those who do not intend to pay, regardless of the opportunity to buy a ticket.

...

Why is a penalty fares scheme necessary?
We have a scheme to encourage passengers to buy tickets before travelling. Reducing fraudulent travel is in the interests of you and us. It is only fair that everyone pays to travel.

https://www.southwesternrailway.com/~/media/pdfs/penalty-fares/penalty-fares-leaflet-2017.pdf?la=en

And East Midlands Trains:

Our Penalty Fare scheme sets out to eliminate fare evasion on our services as it is a criminal offence to travel without paying for your journey. It is important that fare evasion is treated seriously particularly for our fare paying customers.

https://www.eastmidlandstrains.co.uk/information/contact-us/policies-procedures/Penalty-Fares/

 

[Deerfold]

Penalty trial to tackle West Yorkshire train fare evaders

Yes, that's what the thread is about.

Sheff1 was pointing out that people with passes in West and South Yorkshire do not get free rail travel.

 

[Deerfold]

How much notice are Northern supposed to give passengers? I was at Bradford Forster Square, Shipley and Keighley at the end of last week and saw nothing about it. No new TVMs either.

 

[A Challenge]

Well there needs to be a particular notice at every station announcing the pending introduction 3 weeks beforehand, has that happened yet? Or is it not really going to be able to start in "a couple of weeks"?

the operator must arrange for notices to be displayed in clearly visible positions at each station which is to become a penalty fares station, advising passengers that a penalty fares scheme is to be introduced. These notices must be displayed for at least three weeks before the scheme is introduced, and must be in line with rule 4.3.

(This is normally a different notice from the one required when the scheme starts.)

This is information is in this post a couple of pages ago

 

[Deerfold]

This is information is in this post a couple of pages ago

Then Northern seem to be breaking the scheme rules from the start.

 

[Starmill]

Then Northern seem to be breaking the scheme rules from the start.

This is what we have been saying - but some people prefer to 'wait and see before jumping to conclusions'. Sadly a case of head in sand I think.

Perhaps someone can confirm if there are signs up tomorrow morning saying what to do if you can't use the ticket machine.

 

[Bantamzen]

Well talking of jumping to conclusions, the new TVMs are this morning displaying full screen notices about the need to obtain a ticket or PTP before boarding. It also states quite clearly "No card? No problem" indicating that passengers without cards can still obtain a ticket from it. Its very noticeable even just wandering past the TVM, being in the same format as the posters & signs that went up a few weeks ago. And looking around the first of the day's 333 there seem to be more posters up too. Addtionally yesterday on approach to Leeds and on the way out in the evening both guards made clear announcements about it.

Of course I realise for some this won't be enough, but the message to me is quite clear. Don't board without some form of ticket.

 

[Deerfold]

Well talking of jumping to conclusions, the new TVMs are this morning displaying full screen notices about the need to obtain a ticket or PTP before boarding. It also states quite clearly "No card? No problem" indicating that passengers without cards can still obtain a ticket from it. Its very noticeable even just wandering past the TVM, being in the same format as the posters & signs that went up a few weeks ago. And looking around the first of the day's 333 there seem to be more posters up too. Addtionally yesterday on approach to Leeds and on the way out in the evening both guards made clear announcements about it.

Of course I realise for some this won't be enough, but the message to me is quite clear. Don't board without some form of ticket.

That sounds a distinct improvement, but by the end of last week I hadn't seen any posters although they should have been up and I was looking out for them. Where have you seen the posters? I'm away until tomorrow so I'll have a look tomorrow and at the weekend.

 

[Bantamzen]

That sounds a distinct improvement, but by the end of last week I hadn't seen any posters although they should have been up and I was looking out for them. Where have you seen the posters? I'm away until tomorrow so I'll have a look tomorrow and at the weekend.

So far I've seen signs / posters at Leeds, Shipley, Balidon, & Guiseley. All of these were up at some point last week, although some are more prominent than others. The posters onboard the two 333s I've been on seem to have gone in last night, as I can't honestly say I saw them before although I do tend to be a bit distracted by my music & smartphone so they may have been up sooner. As also mentioned guards seemed to be making announcements onboard about the change, although it was seemingly only yesterday. However today at least one fellow passenger had a problem with getting tickets from the TVM at Guiseley (I assume TOD), and asked the guard what to do because of the change in policy. They offered to escort said passenger to the barriers to explain the situation so as I had hoped at least some guards are demonstrating a common sense approach for the start of the trial.

The notice on the new TVM at Baildon (I really should have taken a snap) is full screen and sports the same bright yellow background as the posters which really does make it stand out. It certainly caught the attention of myself and the couple of other fellow passengers this morning, and clearly states that passengers can get a ticket / PTP without a card. So I am pleased see that Northern are initially at least using these large screen TVMs to their full potential. Quite how you get a PTP I'm not sure yet, when I tried to renew my MCard yesterday the software wasn't updated to do it (I have contacted them about it and they said it would be made live, possibly with the patch last night) but there was a new feature which shown as "Coming Soon" so this may well be it. Hopefully Northern will have also updated the relevant database(s) to allow online purchases to be collected at them, when I ordered some tickets from TPE recently Baildon still wasn't on the list. So we'll see if all these features are now live, something that is going to be important to prevent the kind of issues people are concerned about.

 

[johntea]

So who will be the first person to post an image of a Promise To Pay?

 

[185143]

So who will be the first person to post an image of a Promise To Pay?

Me!

(Nicked it off twitter for the record)