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Northern to introduce 2 extra trains in December

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northwichcat

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As for being n the same level as the 185, that is upping the cost of renting the units according to many in the industry so where does this extra money come from? Better units but higher ticket prices? I think comparing a 319 to a 185 is missing the point. You have to compare the stock it will replace and also look at the market. Getting home and getting a seat are very important factors for choosing a train over driving for airport travellers who are more suited to get a train home than drive the whole way back.

No I think you're missing the point.

Liverpool-Warrington-Manchester semi-fast services are half-hourly. Liverpool-Earlestown-Manchester semi-fast services are hourly and aren't interworked with Liverpool-Warrington-Manchester services.

At xx:01 at Piccadilly platform 14 the Northern Rail service for Liverpool departs, 6 minutes later the TPE service departs from the same platform. If Northern put on a unit people don't like the look of (and it's not rush hour) people will choose to wait for the TPE service as any regular rail user knows TPE only have modern clean trains. As I've said before people have opted to wait when an ex-LM 150/2 deputises for 156.

In the other direction the TPE service leaves Lime Street 9 minutes after the Northern one.

Replacing 156s with 319/3s is similar to Chiltern taking their existing DMUs off London to Aylesbury services and replacing them with 150/0s.
 
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transmanche

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At xx:01 at Piccadilly platform 14 the Northern Rail service for Liverpool departs, 6 minutes later the TPE service departs from the same platform. If Northern put on a unit people don't like the look of (and it's not rush hour) people will choose to wait for the TPE service as any regular rail user knows TPE only have modern clean trains.
From the May timetable change it'll be:
  • xx:07 TPE via Warrington
  • xx:37 EMT via Warrington
  • xx:55 Northern via Newton-le-Willows
 

Class377/5

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No I think you're missing the point.

Liverpool-Warrington-Manchester semi-fast services are half-hourly. Liverpool-Earlestown-Manchester semi-fast services are hourly and aren't interworked with Liverpool-Warrington-Manchester services.

At xx:01 at Piccadilly platform 14 the Northern Rail service for Liverpool departs, 6 minutes later the TPE service departs from the same platform. If Northern put on a unit people don't like the look of (and it's not rush hour) people will choose to wait for the TPE service as any regular rail user knows TPE only have modern clean trains. As I've said before people have opted to wait when an ex-LM 150/2 deputises for 156.

In the other direction the TPE service leaves Lime Street 9 minutes after the Northern one.

Replacing 156s with 319/3s is similar to Chiltern taking their existing DMUs off London to Aylesbury services and replacing them with 150/0s.

None of which had anything to do with your last post especially as you've gone from Airport passengers to commuter which are too very different markets. I take it the points I made like Northern not having a premium service you agree with. Ignoring the point of fares too with your better quality travelling environment is undermines any point your trying to make as you haven't stated how your actually going to pay for it. And I don't buy the 156 to 319 is like 168 to 150 claim either.
 

northwichcat

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None of which had anything to do with your last post especially as you've gone from Airport passengers to commuter which are too very different markets. I take it the points I made like Northern not having a premium service you agree with. Ignoring the point of fares too with your better quality travelling environment is undermines any point your trying to make as you haven't stated how your actually going to pay for it. And I don't buy the 156 to 319 is like 168 to 150 claim either.

I made the point the Airport-Liverpool services are in need of extra luggage space more than extra seats and the user Wolfie objected saying why should Manchester Airport passengers need special interiors, which wasn't at all relevant to my post.

The first thing Wolfie fails to understand is there's a lot of luggage transferred on trains between Manchester and Liverpool which has nothing to do with Manchester Airport passengers. A train service between two of the largest UK cities has plenty of luggage regardless of whether or not it serves an Airport.

The other thing both you and Wolfie seem to have difficulty understanding is the price of the Manchester STNs to Liverpool STNs is the same whatever service you travel on. There's no premium for travelling with TPE unless you choose to travel FC. The SVR restrictions introduced by TPE apply to all services between Manchester and Liverpool. Why shouldn't the standard of the interior be the same if the price is the same? I'm not saying there should be brand new 380s on Liverpool-Manchester Airport services, I'm saying there should be 2+2 seating, tables, carpets and an accessible toilet on the 319s. Given Scotrail can afford such 'luxury' on many of their very short services why can't Northern? (Oh and that's less than what we were promised by DfT who promised us all that on the 319s plus air conditioning.)
 

Starmill

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I've never ever used a Northern service to Manchester Airport except where I need the stopper - and that's almost always a 323 anyway. It's just daft - why would you? 319s in their current state won't change that and I suspect that's the case for the vast majority of passengers.
 

Wolfie

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I made the point the Airport-Liverpool services are in need of extra luggage space more than extra seats and the user Wolfie objected saying why should Manchester Airport passengers need special interiors, which wasn't at all relevant to my post.

The first thing Wolfie fails to understand is there's a lot of luggage transferred on trains between Manchester and Liverpool which has nothing to do with Manchester Airport passengers. A train service between two of the largest UK cities has plenty of luggage regardless of whether or not it serves an Airport.

The other thing both you and Wolfie seem to have difficulty understanding is the price of the Manchester STNs to Liverpool STNs is the same whatever service you travel on. There's no premium for travelling with TPE unless you choose to travel FC. The SVR restrictions introduced by TPE apply to all services between Manchester and Liverpool. Why shouldn't the standard of the interior be the same if the price is the same? I'm not saying there should be brand new 380s on Liverpool-Manchester Airport services, I'm saying there should be 2+2 seating, tables, carpets and an accessible toilet on the 319s. Given Scotrail can afford such 'luxury' on many of their very short services why can't Northern? (Oh and that's less than what we were promised by DfT who promised us all that on the 319s plus air conditioning.)

I am sure that the 319s will be refurbished in due course but you and many others have bewailed the lack of capacity in the North now. To me it seems a bit of a no-brainer to get the extra capacity into service as soon as possible and worry about refurbishment later, particularly given that the 319s are, at the very least, no worse than the trains they will be replacing on the services you mention. You also very carefully ignore the fact that Northern is the most heavily subsidised English TOC (while in at least some areas having very low relative fares) and yet demand even more expenditure - I note you ignore how the refurbishment you demand is to be funded!

Oh, and people travelling between Manchester and Liverpool have more luggage than those travelling between two airports, HS1 and Brighton a major tourist area do they - pull the other one! Try looking at the population denisty of the South East before coming out with such statements!

Inclusion of Scotrail is a complete red herring as Westminister/DfT has no control over how the devolved Scottish Govt spends it budget - if you want to debate the fairness of that budget there is indeed a discussion to be had but it is not directly relevant to this thread.
 

Class377/5

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I made the point the Airport-Liverpool services are in need of extra luggage space more than extra seats and the user Wolfie objected saying why should Manchester Airport passengers need special interiors, which wasn't at all relevant to my post.

The first thing Wolfie fails to understand is there's a lot of luggage transferred on trains between Manchester and Liverpool which has nothing to do with Manchester Airport passengers. A train service between two of the largest UK cities has plenty of luggage regardless of whether or not it serves an Airport.

The other thing both you and Wolfie seem to have difficulty understanding is the price of the Manchester STNs to Liverpool STNs is the same whatever service you travel on. There's no premium for travelling with TPE unless you choose to travel FC. The SVR restrictions introduced by TPE apply to all services between Manchester and Liverpool. Why shouldn't the standard of the interior be the same if the price is the same? I'm not saying there should be brand new 380s on Liverpool-Manchester Airport services, I'm saying there should be 2+2 seating, tables, carpets and an accessible toilet on the 319s. Given Scotrail can afford such 'luxury' on many of their very short services why can't Northern? (Oh and that's less than what we were promised by DfT who promised us all that on the 319s plus air conditioning.)

You mentioned the Airports in your post with some errors I corrected. Your comments over luggage seem to ignore the 319s have been coping with this situation for years.

The reason why the interior is difference is your comparing a intercity service with a more local one. Is that really fair regardless of price. You seem only able to isolate on particular section to distort the situation to support your point. If you were true to this point you'd be equally outraged at the Stockport to Piccadilly service that see a mix of trains at the same price. Balance is required.

Your questions over the standard of interior again ignores my point of cost. You are right that the 319s should be refurbished to a decent standard but right now Id argue its more important to get more train in service to reduce crowding. Wait until the full situation is know regarding fleet usage then refurbish the fleet in a single go which should reduce costs rather than doing them in fits and starts.

As for Scotrail, well what about Rail North? They are ones who should be pushing for better improvements in the fleet. And they are going to have a choice to achieve the better quality rolling stock, which means increased costs, raise fares or support the services by funding improvements. Again by ignoring the reality of what your asking for is more cost but you seem to not address this side of the issue. And there is no guarantee that the DfT didn't believe the refurbished 319s wouldn't lead to a raising of fares to pay for it.

The delay to the 319 cascade was caused by a global issue so there was little the DfT could have done to get the 700s here any sooner with the reactionary affects we are now seeing. Its not the ideal situation but getting more trains into service, which is a good thing with the arrival of 3x 319 to Northern is going to see 4-5 DMUs freed up in peak for train lengthening or new services. That is better passengers no matter what you say.

I am sure that the 319s will be refurbished in due course but you and many others have bewailed the lack of capacity in the North now. To me it seems a bit of a no-brainer to get the extra capacity into service as soon as possible and worry about refurbishment later, particularly given that the 319s are, at the very least, no worse than the trains they will be replacing on the services you mention. You also very carefully ignore the fact that Northern is the most heavily subsidised English TOC (while in at least some areas having very low relative fares) and yet demand even more expenditure - I note you ignore how the refurbishment you demand is to be funded!

Oh, and people travelling between Manchester and Liverpool have more luggage than those travelling between two airports, HS1 and Brighton a major tourist area do they - pull the other one! Try looking at the population denisty of the South East before coming out with such statements!

Inclusion of Scotrail is a complete red herring as Westminister/DfT has no control over how the devolved Scottish Govt spends it budget - if you want to debate the fairness of that budget there is indeed a discussion to be had but it is not directly relevant to this thread.

Interesting to note that a four car 319 is almost as busy between Gatwick and London in off peak as the peak over crowding pictures on Northern that many users have posted on here. And that's with a far more frequent service as well as its down to sheer numbers of people in the SE.

The first two off peak Thameslink services from Brighton are as busy as any picture posted of Northern stock from Brighton. Indeed overcrowding is similar on Thameslink network to the TPE network even tho the former have longer trains overall (funny how both have some similar roles).
 
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Starmill

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Of course it is relevant! People are unhappy and feel cheated that first we don't get new trains we get second hand ones but they'll be refurbished - and then we get them but only a few and not refurbished.

The luggage space debate is secondary but lots and lots of people complain about the lack of it on 319s at present.

I've also had enough of the 'and how are you going to pay for that?' stuff. TPE set some grossly overpriced Anytime fares per mile in Northern England. There are cheap lines, yes. The Esk Valley line is a good example. But that has bugger all to do with services to and from Manchester Airport!

I do not think it is too much to ask for a fully accessibility compliant train with 2+2 seats and tables. Carpets and air con are nice extras, but things like automatic announcements and a disabled toilet - and yes, adequate luggage racks - are minimum standards!
 

Wolfie

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Of course it is relevant! People are unhappy and feel cheated that first we don't get new trains we get second hand ones but they'll be refurbished - and then we get them but only a few and not refurbished.

The luggage space debate is secondary but lots and lots of people complain about the lack of it on 319s at present.

I've also had enough of the 'and how are you going to pay for that?' stuff. TPE set some grossly overpriced Anytime fares per mile in Northern England. There are cheap lines, yes. The Esk Valley line is a good example. But that has bugger all to do with services to and from Manchester Airport!

I do not think it is too much to ask for a fully accessibility compliant train with 2+2 seats and tables. Carpets and air con are nice extras, but things like automatic announcements and a disabled toilet - and yes, adequate luggage racks - are minimum standards!


I agree with your last para. I do, however, assume that you are well aware that a significant proportion (if not the majority) of services in the South East also fail, therefore, to meet minimum standards (including such brand new rolling stock as class 378!).....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I should add that I'll bet you are fed up of hearing "how is it to be paid for". I would just say that as a South East traveller I am fed up with being the one doing the paying! As a general rule Southern TOCs pay the Govt money and Northern ones take it hand over fist.....
 

northwichcat

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I am sure that the 319s will be refurbished in due course but you and many others have bewailed the lack of capacity in the North now. To me it seems a bit of a no-brainer to get the extra capacity into service as soon as possible and worry about refurbishment later, particularly given that the 319s are, at the very least, no worse than the trains they will be replacing on the services you mention.

Northern said on their Twitter account yesterday that there are currently no plans to refurbish the 319s as they don't need refurbishing. Earlier on Class377/5 asked the question where all the freed up 319s are going in 2015 as a lot more will be freed up than taken on by Northern, surely that's the prefect opportunity to refurbish them?

You also very carefully ignore the fact that Northern is the most heavily subsidised English TOC (while in at least some areas having very low relative fares) and yet demand even more expenditure - I note you ignore how the refurbishment you demand is to be funded!

Given the previous DfT promised it the funds should be available unless they have robbed Peter to pay Paul again.

Oh, and people travelling between Manchester and Liverpool have more luggage than those travelling between two airports, HS1 and Brighton a major tourist area do they - pull the other one!

I never made such a claim. All I said is the 156s currently used on Liverpool-Airport services have insufficient luggage capacity and extra luggage space needed to be higher priority than more seats (currently 150 per service.) In response to that you've made up a load of rubbish to try and make it look like you're talking sense and I'm talking rubbish. You'd seriously give Nigel Farage a run for his money in a talking bull**** competition!
 
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Wolfie

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Given the previous DfT promised it the funds should be available unless they have robbed Peter to pay Paul again.

I never made such a claim. All I said is the 156s currently used on Liverpool-Airport services have insufficient luggage capacity and extra luggage space needed to be higher priority than more seats (currently 150 per service.) In response to that you've made up a load of rubbish to try and make it look like you're talking sense and I'm talking rubbish. You'd seriously give Nigel Farage a run for his money in a talking bull**** competition!

Firstly "DfT" did not promise to pay for anything. A previous Secretary of Sate for Transport made a commitment - unfortunately not only is that commitment not binding on his successors (even if from the same party let alone a wholly different Govt) but it may well be that some of the money has been used for other things in the North (perhaps additional rolling stock or infrastructure).

Having reread you original I concede I misread what I said you said is incorrect, my apologies. However the nature of 319s and their current role mean that it's 4 carriages likely have both more seats (albeit some in 3 + 2 format) and luggage space than 2 x 2 carriage class 156s let alone a single 2 car Class 156.

Being compared to Nigel Farrage - that is below the belt, lol!
 

northwichcat

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However the nature of 319s and their current role mean that it's 4 carriages likely have both more seats (albeit some in 3 + 2 format) and luggage space than 2 x 2 carriage class 156s let alone a single 2 car Class 156.

That's really what I've been getting at. Why would passengers want to downgrade from 2+2 seating with tables from 3+2 seating without when there isn't a significant number of standing passengers? If you've got a 350/1 booked service that has 100 people standing and it was changed to a 350/2 then it would have advantages but if you had a 350/1 where there were 40 empty seats and changed it to a 350/2 would the passengers be happy? Remember the outrage when SWT introduced brand new 450s with 3+2 seating?

Being compared to Nigel Farrage - that is below the belt, lol!

OK it was I saw an email come in with a subject line of 'The BBC Clegg-Farage debate' when I was writing my post.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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I'll just say one word: recession.
The railway is catching up with all the other public service cuts in the last 5 years (and it's not over yet).
The best hope is that the 2016 Northern bidders get a decent amount of refurbishment approved.
The next crunch point is: exactly how many 319s can the franchise afford.

Rail seems to think that GW Thames Valley will be getting new-ish cascades from Thameslink, with a few 319s for the branches.
 

thealexweb

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Initially one extra unit for peak strengthenings. Long term possibility of a new service to Blackburn via Bolton providing extra capacity once the route upgrades done.

Oooh an extra Pacer for the evening peak they do spoil us don't they?

So nothing till December, and nothing worth talking about till May / December 2015.
 

ChiefPlanner

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A lot of people did a lot of work to get this wiring approved and delivered (It was not in the NR Electrification RUS of 2009) - OK , the cascade went wrong with the late approval of the Thameslink stock. As I said before -and as a daily user - the 319's are competent trains and not in bad nick at all - I will not swear - but up to the 1st West Coast recast the Liverpool - Man Air service was a 142 all stations - the semi fast came in as a result of some proactive market and operational thinking. An improvement for 156 sets - and better (even the 319's) will come. Trust me - there are plenty of services in this parish that could use these 319's for now + the cascaded 377/2 until the 700's come into service.
 

Rail North

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Northerns CEO said they will be operating out of Allerton. How many extra staff are they taking on to cope with demand.
 

Aldaniti

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Nothing here that would make me want to start travelling on Northern Rail again. 3+2 seats, pillars blocking the view, no thanks, I'll stick with the car.
 

northwichcat

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Oooh an extra Pacer for the evening peak they do spoil us don't they?

So nothing till December, and nothing worth talking about till May / December 2015.

Well the 2 x units freed up by EMUs would be Sprinters not Pacers. However, that would hopefully mean as a result of a Sprinter being made available for extra capacity a busy 2 car Sprinter diagram becomes a 4 car Pacer diagram and a busy 4 car Pacer diagram becomes a 4 car Sprinter diagram so that 2 diagrams get extra capacity.
 
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LNW-GW Joint

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Northerns CEO said they will be operating out of Allerton. How many extra staff are they taking on to cope with demand.

Why would you need extra staff?
There won't be any more trains (just longer).
There will be a transitional period of course, but I would have thought the aim was fewer staff eventually.
319s will require less attention than the DMUs they replace.
 

swt_passenger

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Why would you need extra staff?
There won't be any more trains (just longer).
There will be a transitional period of course, but I would have thought the aim was fewer staff eventually.
319s will require less attention than the DMUs they replace.

The EMUs aren't replacing anything are they though, they are off to augment Northern's fleet on other routes. If the DMUs are not displaced to another depot, the depot may still need more staff surely? And if the DMUs do go elsewhere, their maintainers may either go with them, or they stay and somewhere else needs more staff?
 

northwichcat

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The train that runs that service is currently running a service elsewhere though and so it isnt an additional unit, its just a redeployed one.

LNW-GW Joint was saying there wouldn't be any extra trains just longer trains so no extra staff will be required. However, they'll be an extra diagram to allow the Victoria-Tordmorden services to be extended to Blackburn via Burnley so they'll need to be more crews unless Northern are to use ghosts to work the trains.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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LNW-GW Joint was saying there wouldn't be any extra trains just longer trains so no extra staff will be required. However, they'll be an extra diagram to allow the Victoria-Tordmorden services to be extended to Blackburn via Burnley so they'll need to be more crews unless Northern are to use ghosts to work the trains.

So just to clarify matters, just how many units will be in the pool that will run the daily Blackburn-Burnley-Todmorden-Rochdale-Manchester (and onwards?) service from December 2014 ?
 

LNW-GW Joint

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LNW-GW Joint was saying there wouldn't be any extra trains just longer trains so no extra staff will be required. However, they'll be an extra diagram to allow the Victoria-Tordmorden services to be extended to Blackburn via Burnley so they'll need to be more crews unless Northern are to use ghosts to work the trains.

Actually I thought the original question was about depot staff at Allerton rather than Northern-wide.
If they lose pesky 142s and gain run-for-ever (;)) 319s it should take less effort overall to maintain the fleet.
Obviously there will be transition costs to get there.
Then there are the changes in the leasing/maintenance arrangements for the existing DMU fleet (soggy lease etc).
As I see it Porterbrook will be doing more than they have to date, and Northern less.

For Todmorden, there must be scope for rediagramming the existing crews before taking on more.
But I have no idea how near the bone Northern's staffing is.
 

northwichcat

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For Todmorden, there must be scope for rediagramming the existing crews before taking on more.
But I have no idea how near the bone Northern's staffing is.

If you've got one extra train diagram every day then you must need something at least 2 extra FT drivers and 2 extra FT guards to work those services. I agree that there should be spare staff available so that sickness and emergencies can be covered but if you reduce the number of spare crews available then you increase the risk of cancellations due to staff shortages.
 
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