Northern to introduce 2 extra trains in December

[hairyhandedfool]

Two trains is not enough to fully convert any one service, so I suppose they will be on DMU timings and just infiltrated as and when.
Do we have any clear idea of when the next lot of EMUs will arrive?

Rail also seems to think that Blackpool will now not be before Dec 2016 because of remodelling work, so essentially the December 2014 Liverpool wires will be the last to go live for two years.

Lime St.-Warrington Bank Quay currently uses two units at a time (they pass at St Helens Junction I think).

Lime St.-Stalybridge will be cut back to Victoria and with the 'better acceleration of EMUs', and the 'line speed improvements' the route is supposed to have, I can see Lime St.-Vic being covered in under an hour (it's 1 hour 3 minutes currently).

What state are the toilets in? I've never used one on a 319. Wikipeida says they have 2 each, are they the really small ones as found in most 321s and similar to the 323s? If so, 156s have an accessible toilet (although it may not meet the latest legislative requirements, the trains as a whole certainly don't)... a step back?

When I was last working in London (and things have probably changed a bit) the 319/2s had one large disabled toilet, whilst the other units had the two small ones they were built with.

 

[Manchester77]

So a large number of the 142s have been refreshed since 2008? (Certainly the ones in the NE have just been done.) But when were the 319s last refreshed?

Depends on where you are and what interior they have, the ex-FGW lot have only recently had the stripes moquette however the ex-FNW refurbished ones have been done for a while. The ex-ATN units were done recently as you say.

I think that different sub classes were done at different times however the initial lot to come up here (319/3s) were the last lot to be done so was quite recent. Regardless of this any 319s to come up here will be deep cleaned and refreshed.

 

[Anvil1984]

Depends on where you are and what interior they have, the ex-FGW lot have only recently had the stripes moquette however the ex-FNW refurbished ones have been done for a while. The ex-ATN units were done recently as you say.

I think that different sub classes were done at different times however the initial lot to come up here (319/3s) were the last lot to be done so was quite recent. Regardless of this any 319s to come up here will be deep cleaned and refreshed.

Some of the exFGW horrors still have the FGW seat covers

 

[Wavertreelad]

What I final strange is 35x 319s (140 carriages) are set to be released by Thameslink by Dec 2015 with the 6x 319 only seeing 3x 319s initially released due to overhaul requirements. The 387 order of 29 units (116 carriages) are all supposed to be in service by Dec 2015 at the latest.

So with Northern getting 14x 319 (56 carriages) where are the other 21x 319s (84 carriages) going?

Or put another way, how many sets, assuming all four car sets, are required to cover existing diagrams on all the newly electrified network, ignoring anything to the east of Stalybridge or Victoria, by the end of 2015 or 2016 which ever is the easiest?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Or put another way, how many sets, assuming all four car sets, are required to cover existing diagrams on all the newly electrified network, ignoring anything to the east of Stalybridge or Victoria, by the end of 2015 or 2016 which ever is the easiest?

You could do the stoppers and the Airport with 12 at a pinch.
3 each for Airport and Victoria, 2 for Warrington, 4 for Wigan.
So a fleet of 14 might well be enough initially.

 

[Wavertreelad]

You could do the stoppers and the Airport with 12 at a pinch.
3 each for Airport and Victoria, 2 for Warrington, 4 for Wigan.
So a fleet of 14 might well be enough initially.

and Preston 2 or 3 by end of 2015 making 17 in total?

To which Blackpool and other locals from Manchester to be added as well for 2016/2017?

 

[thealexweb]

How many DMUs can we expect to be transferred to Bolton routes?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

and Preston 2 or 3 by end of 2015 making 17 in total?
To which Blackpool and other locals from Manchester to be added as well for 2016/2017?

There aren't any Liverpool-Prestons (well, maybe early and late) unless they truncate the Blackpools.
I'm sure there will be service changes on all routes for 2016.

 

[WatcherZero]

How many DMUs can we expect to be transferred to Bolton routes?

Initially one extra unit for peak strengthenings. Long term possibility of a new service to Blackburn via Bolton providing extra capacity once the route upgrades done.

 

[northwichcat]

What I final strange is 35x 319s (140 carriages) are set to be released by Thameslink by Dec 2015 with the 6x 319 only seeing 3x 319s initially released due to overhaul requirements. The 387 order of 29 units (116 carriages) are all supposed to be in service by Dec 2015 at the latest.

So with Northern getting 14x 319 (56 carriages) where are the other 21x 319s (84 carriages) going?

Well hopefully 2016 sees Porterbrook undertaking their proposed refurbishments on the 319s.

If Preston-Blackpool electrification runs to schedule (someone suggested it wasn't) then Liverpool-Blackpool services can switch in May 2015.

The Bolton corridor, Stalybridge-Manchester and Thames Valley should have wires ready to use by December 2016. Will there be enough 319s released by then?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

and Preston 2 or 3 by end of 2015 making 17 in total?

To which Blackpool and other locals from Manchester to be added as well for 2016/2017?

What do you mean by Preston?

Manchester-Bolton-Preston won't have wires ready until December 16 while Preston-Blackpool should have wires ready by May 16. Wigan-Preston-Lancaster is already wired and there are no plans to other routes in to Preston.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Lime St.-Stalybridge will be cut back to Victoria and with the 'better acceleration of EMUs', and the 'line speed improvements' the route is supposed to have, I can see Lime St.-Vic being covered in under an hour (it's 1 hour 3 minutes currently).

Trying to run an hourly service which takes something like 57 minutes end-to-end with two units won't work, it would need to be 50 minutes or less. You'd need 3 units and units sitting around for a long time, which is probably why a the Liverpool-Manchester stopper is supposed to be half-hourly all day when it switches to electric, for better unit efficiency.

 

[anthony263]

What I final strange is 35x 319s (140 carriages) are set to be released by Thameslink by Dec 2015 with the 6x 319 only seeing 3x 319s initially released due to overhaul requirements. The 387 order of 29 units (116 carriages) are all supposed to be in service by Dec 2015 at the latest.

So with Northern getting 14x 319 (56 carriages) where are the other 21x 319s (84 carriages) going?

There was a suggestion in rail magazine back in 2012 that if the Thames Valley area got brand new emu's the GW could get a small batch of
class 319's for use on electric services around Bristol.

That could be a Bath/Bristol - Cardiff/Swansea service as well as perhaps a peak hour shuttle between Bristol Parkway and Bristol TM/Bedminster capacity buster.

This assumes that there will be some class 319's available around 2017/2018.

 

[northwichcat]

There was a suggestion in rail magazine back in 2012 that if the Thames Valley area got brand new emu's the GW could get a small batch of
class 319's for use on electric services around Bristol.

From the Network Rail CP5 plans dated 31st March 2014

DfT have indicated that the initial EMU operations will utilise class 319 units operating up to 12-car in length over the following core route sections:

Core routes
 Paddington to Oxford.
 Slough to Windsor and Eton Central.
 Maidenhead to Marlow.
 Twyford to Henley.
 Reading to Newbury.
 Reading to Basingstoke.
Diversionary routes
 Acton East to North Pole junction.
 Reading West Curve.

Diversionary routes
 Acton East to North Pole junction.
 Reading West Curve.

Ancillary movements
 To and from Reading Train Care Depot

They do, however, mention potential future work to allow new EMUs capable of 110mph operation.

 

[anthony263]

I wonder then perhaps if the DFT intend to use the class 319's on the GW initially with the order for new emu's being left to the new franchise holder after 2020. The use of class 319's would also help with the Thames Valley branches especially the Marlow branch since they can be reduced to 3 carriage units.

I do wonder if the GW class 319's would get a refurbishment when they leave FCC although they have similar colour interiors.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....The use of class 319's would also help with the Thames Valley branches especially the Marlow branch since they can be reduced to 3 carriage units....

They can be reduced to 3-car in the same way as pretty much any other four car unit, with a lot of work. Oddball formations might also effect efficiency of the fleet.

 

[northwichcat]

They can be reduced to 3-car in the same way as pretty much any other four car unit, with a lot of work. Oddball formations might also effect efficiency of the fleet.

They need re-wiring to have a centre car removed.

They also aren't powerful enough to operate 323 diagrams in their current state. It's believed that removing a centre car and re-engineering them will change that, although they would then be smaller than a 323 with having 20m carriages opposed to 23.4m carriages and making the required accessibility improvements will reduce the capacity further.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

They need re-wiring to have a centre car removed....

That's a bit of an understatement....

 

[47802]

I travel on 319's every work day - they are clean , warm and good runners and riders. Some have etched windows (coating often changed) - if people are happy to ride in them for an hour to / from Bedford and Brighton to the Big City - I am sure they will be fine for Liverpool - Manchester.

They have seats and space.

Somehow I doubt they are happy with them but have no choice, when I used Thameslink services for a couple of weeks earlier this year I used to try and catch a 377 service, which I much prefer over a 319's built in the late 80's to an already ageing design, with an interior which looks more like something from the 1970's, oh and the etched windows are nice not!.

Still its better than a Railbus.

If these things are going to be used long term then they need a 321 demonstrator style refurb in the new franshise.

 

[Wolfie]

I'm sure they will be when they replace busy 4 car 150 services on the Bolton corridor but when replacing 2 car 156s on Liverpool-Manchester Airport services where extra luggage space is a higher priority than extra seats is a different matter.

With the best will in the world what the heck is so special about Manchester Airport? You are talking about trains which have successfully served both Gatwick and Luton airports for years - strange old thing they do actually have luggage space!

 

[northwichcat]

With the best will in the world what the heck is so special about Manchester Airport? You are talking about trains which have successfully served both Gatwick and Luton airports for years - strange old thing they do actually have luggage space!

Well by your reasoning why did the 317/7s and 319/2s need a special Airport interior, why wouldn't the standard one without tables and with 3+2 seating have sufficed? Have the 319/3s even been used on Airport services or are you just saying that because 319s have been used on Airport services?

The point I was making about the interiors was that they will be inferior to the current interiors and the interiors on the other fast Manchester-Liverpool services. If you want passengers to use the new 4 car service opposed to actively try to avoid them then you need an interior as good as on the 185s and the EMT 158s.

 

[Batman]

Is it still part of the plan for Northerns 323's to be transferred to London Midland in time for Bromsgrove and Chase Lime electrification in 2017?

 

[YorkshireBear]

Is it still part of the plan for Northerns 323's to be transferred to London Midland in time for Bromsgrove and Chase Lime electrification in 2017?

I don't think that was ever part of the plan. I think it was an idea that was rejected. The 10 350/3s for LM will be providing the additional rolling stock for Bromsgrove, Chase Line and the additional Redditch services.

 

[northwichcat]

Is it still part of the plan for Northerns 323's to be transferred to London Midland in time for Bromsgrove and Chase Lime electrification in 2017?

Northern 323s were to go to LM under the HLOS for CP4 after Northern had got an order of new EMUs to replace them, but that new order never went ahead, so the plans were scrapped.

There are no current plans for the Northern 323s to go to LM. However, when TfGM asked for assurances they would remain in Greater Manchester long term when they proposed funding CCTV on them but DfT said they couldn't give that but promised TfGM if the 323s did go the units replacing them would have CCTV fitted from the outset at no cost to TfGM.

 

[swt_passenger]

Is it still part of the plan for Northerns 323's to be transferred to London Midland in time for Bromsgrove and Chase Lime electrification in 2017?

No, and that has not been the plan for a few years really. That proposal came up in the original DfT 'rolling stock plan' but much of the ideas died with NW electrification and the new proposals to use secondhand 319s in the NW rather than a new build that would have also replaced the 323s.

The current 10 car 350/3 deliveries are explicitly stated as covering for both the above purposes, and also for WCML (South) service strengthening.

 

[Batman]

I don't think that was ever part of the plan. I think it was an idea that was rejected. The 10 350/3s for LM will be providing the additional rolling stock for Bromsgrove, Chase Line and the additional Redditch services.

That won't be possible because 350's are 4 car units which don't have SDO. The platforms at the Chase Line local stations (except for the southbound platform at Hednesford) can only take 3 car trains and platform extent sions are not included in the electrification plans.

 

[northwichcat]

That won't be possible because 350's are 4 car units which don't have SDO. The platforms at the Chase Line local stations (except for the southbound platform at Hednesford) can only take 3 car trains and platform extent sions are not included in the electrification plans.

Aren't the 350/3s supposed to replace 323s on one LM route so that LM can release them to another route for that very reason?

 

[YorkshireBear]

That won't be possible because 350's are 4 car units which don't have SDO. The platforms at the Chase Line local stations (except for the southbound platform at Hednesford) can only take 3 car trains and platform extent sions are not included in the electrification plans.

I believe the 350s are for local services between Coventry and Birmingham and some main line service capacity enhancements.

 

[swt_passenger]

That won't be possible because 350's are 4 car units which don't have SDO. The platforms at the Chase Line local stations (except for the southbound platform at Hednesford) can only take 3 car trains and platform extent sions are not included in the electrification plans.

They don't need to physically operate on the Chase line, they can re-organise overall diagramming to make it work.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I believe the 350s are for local services between Coventry and Birmingham and some main line service capacity enhancements.

From the horse's mouth, over two years ago, although I think it's been mentioned a few times since:

Through the Department for Transport's HLOS funding, seven of the new trains are earmarked for London commuter services providing 4,474 extra seats each weekday. There will be an extra 3 services arriving in London during the morning peak and an extra 5 departing from London in the evening peak...

The remaining three new trains will be used to provide extra capacity on the Cross-City line in Birmingham. They will be used to increase the weekday frequency of peak and off-peak services between Birmingham and Redditch from 2 to 3 trains per hour from December 2014. Network Rail has a plan to extend the electrification of the CrossCity line from Barnt Green to a relocated and improved Bromsgrove station which will enable an extended service to commence from late spring 2015.

http://www.londonmidland.com/about-...ins-bring-extra-capacity-and-faster-journeys/

 

[YorkshireBear]

The cross city line has platforms long enough for the 350s doesn't it? So that would make sense.

 

[Old Hill Bank]

The cross city line has platforms long enough for the 350s doesn't it? So that would make sense.

Ten 350/3s to WCML services releases three 350/2s for Wolverhampton Walsall jobs and other odd West Midlands locals releasing 323s for the enhanced Redditch Branch sevices. Nothing confirmed about how Bromsgrove and Chase Line will be covered.

 

[Class377/5]

My comments over the spare 31x 319 only applies to 2015. By the end of 2016 all 86x 319 will be spare so there is something like 72 units to be allocated future duties.

Currently looking like Thameslink will release something like this;

2014
3x 319

2015
32x 319 (29 from 387 + 3 used for C4 cover from 377/2 cascade)

2016
41x 319 (from 700 introduction)
10x 387

2017
25x 377 (for Southeastern)

2018
19x 387

377/2 & /2 fleets will be cascaded internally within TSGN for Milton Keynes services.

Well by your reasoning why did the 317/7s and 319/2s need a special Airport interior, why wouldn't the standard one without tables and with 3+2 seating have sufficed? Have the 319/3s even been used on Airport services or are you just saying that because 319s have been used on Airport services?

The point I was making about the interiors was that they will be inferior to the current interiors and the interiors on the other fast Manchester-Liverpool services. If you want passengers to use the new 4 car service opposed to actively try to avoid them then you need an interior as good as on the 185s and the EMT 158s.

The 319/2 interior has nothing to do with the Airports, in fact quite the opposite. They were built to serve the Brighton Express that doesn't stop at the Gatwick (one of the few trains that doesn't). The idea was rather than a trolley service like now, they had a bar there serving food with a lounge area. What's happened since is the special areas have been removed to provide more seating.

All types of 319s have served both Airports with the 319/4 refurbishment actually including more luggage space as they are aimed more to serve the Airports and carry far more passengers with luggage (which includes Eurostar travellers too) for many years.

Of course the 317 were for the Airport premium service (including price) with local stops for links just like the 379 today and even 442 which justified a different interior. Northern doesn't currently have a premium service does it? (Last time I came home from the Airport it was on a stopper pacer via Warrington Central).

The question I now pose is will the passengers (mainly off peak as they get the bigger capacity increase) who have just flown home really care too much about the modern interior compared to other trains when they are more likely to get a seat?

As for being n the same level as the 185, that is upping the cost of renting the units according to many in the industry so where does this extra money come from? Better units but higher ticket prices? I think comparing a 319 to a 185 is missing the point. You have to compare the stock it will replace and also look at the market. Getting home and getting a seat are very important factors for choosing a train over driving for airport travellers who are more suited to get a train home than drive the whole way back.