Northern timetable plan for May 2018

[Camden]

There's no demand for an express shuttle, but a local train every 10 minutes to the airport from Piccadilly via all stations there is definitely cause for. And bar perhaps an hourly connecting service from Crewe via Stoke, it should be Manchester Airport's only service. And if there is a case for a (terminating) Platform 15 at Piccadilly this is it, but there is no need for this not to happen sooner.

It shouldn't go from Victoria, because it means interfering with the routes that need to run through Manchester. The Ordsall Chord was a waste of money, and the solution to the Victoria - Piccadilly connectivity issue is simply to allow passengers for Manchester Airport to use the Metrolink for free. It's Manchester's problem, created at their behest, and it's appropriate they pay for it, rather than everyone else.

I disagree that "everyone" in the north wants a direct connection to Manchester Airport. What they want is good connectivity as and when they need it. Many local politicians are too dense to understand and represent that properly, and their clingers on simply repeat what the politicians have said.

The problem of the current approach is spoken about as having only a destructive effect on commuter services into Manchester, but in reality its impact is much wider. There are trains terminating at Manchester Airport which could otherwise be delivering business into cities, and those cities are having their own commuter services disrupted by this too. It's not even delivering a good or reliable service from Manchester city centre into the airport.

The recent timetable catastrophe is partly a result of putting lobbying ahead of common sense need and solutions.

 

[Ian. Rown]

Interesting you should say that as Manchester needs a more radical solution given the limited infrastructure, particularly at Piccadilly, Oxford Road and Victoria. The airport with the highest market share in the UK is London City where the DLR share is over 50%. There are no direct main line connections. This is achieved by a five minute frequency reliable service connecting into key rail nodes such as at Stratford, Regional and International and Woolwich well as with the tube network at Canning Town. I am not convinced passengers want to wait around for hourly through services but seem to want to jump on the first train particularly if it gives access to more frequent onward connections.

 

[Ianigsy]

Interesting you should say that as Manchester needs a more radical solution given the limited infrastructure, particularly at Piccadilly, Oxford Road and Victoria. The airport with the highest market share in the UK is London City where the DLR share is over 50%. There are no direct main line connections. This is achieved by a five minute frequency reliable service connecting into key rail nodes such as at Stratford, Regional and International and Woolwich well as with the tube network at Canning Town. I am not convinced passengers want to wait around for hourly through services but seem to want to jump on the first train particularly if it gives access to more frequent onward connections.

I stopped buying TPE advances to and from Manchester Airport because I was fed up of repeatedly having to spend an hour on the platform waiting for my booked train.

 

[158756]

There's no demand for an express shuttle, but a local train every 10 minutes to the airport from Piccadilly via all stations there is definitely cause for. And bar perhaps an hourly connecting service from Crewe via Stoke, it should be Manchester Airport's only service. And if there is a case for a (terminating) Platform 15 at Piccadilly this is it, but there is no need for this not to happen sooner.

You won't need one terminating platform - assuming 13/14 are not suitable, you need space at Piccadilly for the Airport shuttle, that'll be a platform by itself, plus space for everything that currently comes through Oxford Road - 8tph. If that isn't at Piccadilly that'll be a big loss of connectivity for the whole North West.

 

[geoffk]

You won't need one terminating platform - assuming 13/14 are not suitable, you need space at Piccadilly for the Airport shuttle, that'll be a platform by itself, plus space for everything that currently comes through Oxford Road - 8tph. If that isn't at Piccadilly that'll be a big loss of connectivity for the whole North West.

Mayfield? (Assuming a bridge/travelator across to Piccadilly)

 

[Chester1]

Mayfield? (Assuming a bridge/travelator across to Piccadilly)

Its falling down and the land is allocated for a massive development. Even with a travellator it would be too far from platforms 1-12.

 

[Bantamzen]

There's no demand for an express shuttle, but a local train every 10 minutes to the airport from Piccadilly via all stations there is definitely cause for. And bar perhaps an hourly connecting service from Crewe via Stoke, it should be Manchester Airport's only service. And if there is a case for a (terminating) Platform 15 at Piccadilly this is it, but there is no need for this not to happen sooner.

It shouldn't go from Victoria, because it means interfering with the routes that need to run through Manchester. The Ordsall Chord was a waste of money, and the solution to the Victoria - Piccadilly connectivity issue is simply to allow passengers for Manchester Airport to use the Metrolink for free. It's Manchester's problem, created at their behest, and it's appropriate they pay for it, rather than everyone else.

I disagree that "everyone" in the north wants a direct connection to Manchester Airport. What they want is good connectivity as and when they need it. Many local politicians are too dense to understand and represent that properly, and their clingers on simply repeat what the politicians have said.

The problem of the current approach is spoken about as having only a destructive effect on commuter services into Manchester, but in reality its impact is much wider. There are trains terminating at Manchester Airport which could otherwise be delivering business into cities, and those cities are having their own commuter services disrupted by this too. It's not even delivering a good or reliable service from Manchester city centre into the airport.

The recent timetable catastrophe is partly a result of putting lobbying ahead of common sense need and solutions.

Whilst a solution to the current problems are needed, I don't understand how this idea of cutting the airport links to a shuttle only from Piccadilly is justified? The link has grown by almost a third in recent years, a despite what some believe many of those passengers use the service because it doesn't involve a change in Manchester, especially via Victoria. It would be madness to cut a growing route simply to make things a bit easier. The current problems are not because of the airport services so culling them will not solve the problem.

 

[47802]

Whilst a solution to the current problems are needed, I don't understand how this idea of cutting the airport links to a shuttle only from Piccadilly is justified? The link has grown by almost a third in recent years, a despite what some believe many of those passengers use the service because it doesn't involve a change in Manchester, especially via Victoria. It would be madness to cut a growing route simply to make things a bit easier. The current problems are not because of the airport services so culling them will not solve the problem.

Indeed but not only that the new TPE Airport service is offering customers a choice of which Manchester Station is best for them and a wide range of Connections from both Victoria and Piccadilly

 

[northwichcat]

It shouldn't go from Victoria, because it means interfering with the routes that need to run through Manchester. The Ordsall Chord was a waste of money, and the solution to the Victoria - Piccadilly connectivity issue is simply to allow passengers for Manchester Airport to use the Metrolink for free. It's Manchester's problem, created at their behest, and it's appropriate they pay for it, rather than everyone else.

The Ordsall Chord is not simply a solution to connect Victoria to the Airport. It's part of a solution to a bottleneck between Ordsall Lane Junction and Slade Lane Junction. Allowing services from Yorkshire to go to the Airport without reversing at Piccadilly frees up paths for other services in to Piccadilly. Do you think it have been better to build two extra tracks between Slade Lane Junction and Piccadilly?

 

[notlob.divad]

The Ordsall Chord is not simply a solution to connect Victoria to the Airport. It's part of a solution to a bottleneck between Ordsall Lane Junction and Slade Lane Junction.

Which could have been achieved more reliably and without the huge expense if the political choice to run direct services from everywhere to the Airport was not shaping all the decisions on rail provision in the North West

People don't like lugging baggage around Piccadilly, dudums. I used to have to do it every time I travelled to or from University. Off the Cleathorpes Train and over to platform 14 . Then battle onto the North Wales service, before lugging them across Earlestown station too, and I didn't have little wheels on my bag either.

 

[transmanche]

People don't like lugging baggage around Piccadilly, dudums. I used to have to do it every time I travelled to or from University. Off the Cleathorpes Train and over to platform 14 . Then battle onto the North Wales service, before lugging them across Earlestown station too, and I didn't have little wheels on my bag either.

 

[Statto]

The Ordsall Chord is not simply a solution to connect Victoria to the Airport. It's part of a solution to a bottleneck between Ordsall Lane Junction and Slade Lane Junction. Allowing services from Yorkshire to go to the Airport without reversing at Piccadilly frees up paths for other services in to Piccadilly. Do you think it have been better to build two extra tracks between Slade Lane Junction and Piccadilly?

Irony being whilst solving some existing bottleneck problems, it's creating new bottlenecks elsewhere.

 

[Chester1]

Irony being whilst solving some existing bottleneck problems, it's creating new bottlenecks elsewhere.

Which are resolvable especially with more work such as a flying junction to resolve conflicts where the Chat Moss line and Windsor link meet. The alternative to the Ordsall Chord was a flyover at Ardwick which I think was estimated at £250m vs the chord at £85m. The capacity of the Castlefield corridor has been overestimated but its still higher than the 8+2tph opperated until recently.

 

[323235]

Which could have been achieved more reliably and without the huge expense if the political choice to run direct services from everywhere to the Airport was not shaping all the decisions on rail provision in the North West

People don't like lugging baggage around Piccadilly, dudums. I used to have to do it every time I travelled to or from University. Off the Cleathorpes Train and over to platform 14 . Then battle onto the North Wales service, before lugging them across Earlestown station too, and I didn't have little wheels on my bag either.

This is what I can't get my head round - Manchester Airport would be far better with dedicated tracks between Manchester and Slade Lane and a dedicated station at Manchester Mayfield.

It is a performance nightmare.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Demand for Airport trains on local stations is limited - people do not want to lug bags to the local station for a ride that would be easier by cab.

Where the difference between cab to airport v cab to local station + train becomes more persuasive is at longer distances - Stoke, Crewe, Bolton, Huddersfield and beyond.

London City does well with the DLR as it's all mainly business travellers with minimal luggage wanting a speedy transfer to their meetings.

 

[geoffk]

Which are resolvable especially with more work such as a flying junction to resolve conflicts where the Chat Moss line and Windsor link meet. The alternative to the Ordsall Chord was a flyover at Ardwick which I think was estimated at £250m vs the chord at £85m. The capacity of the Castlefield corridor has been overestimated but its still higher than the 8+2tph opperated until recently.

Cities on the continent comparable with Leeds and Manchester, such as Zürich, Frankfurt and Amsterdam, have much more rail infrastructure, including underground lines and stations and grade-separated junctions (flyovers or dive-unders) which reduce conflicting movements. We have none of these and the Ordsall Chord has added two additional flat junctions.

 

[northwichcat]

Demand for Airport trains on local stations is limited - people do not want to lug bags to the local station for a ride that would be easier by cab.

For places between Piccadilly and the Airport it's not just taxis which are the alternative, there's alternative buses and Metrolink from some of the places - which may be slower but they generally have an earlier first service (useful for an Airport which has a lot of flight departures just after 6am) and probably most people who have a choice of one or the other live closer to a Metrolink or bus stop.

 

[underbank]

which may be slower but they generally have an earlier first service (useful for an Airport which has a lot of flight departures just after 6am)

The lack of early trains makes a mockery of all the emphasis on longer distance services to/from the airport. What's the point if you can't get to the airport by train early enough for any flights departing before 10am? By the time the first longer distance trains have arrived from towns/cities across the region, it's too late to check in for the early morning bulk of flights between 7am and 10am. The rest of the morning is a lot quieter with fewer departures. Same with late evening arrivals which arrive either after the last train, or without enough time to allow for delays etc. The lack of early/late trains means huge numbers of passengers from outside the immediate area can't use the train service anyway, so it doesn't matter to them whether there are direct trains or not.

 

[northwichcat]

The lack of early trains makes a mockery of all the emphasis on longer distance services to/from the airport. What's the point if you can't get to the airport by train early enough for any flights departing before 10am? By the time the first longer distance trains have arrived from towns/cities across the region, it's too late to check in for the early morning bulk of flights between 7am and 10am. The rest of the morning is a lot quieter with fewer departures. Same with late evening arrivals which arrive either after the last train, or without enough time to allow for delays etc. The lack of early/late trains means huge numbers of passengers from outside the immediate area can't use the train service anyway, so it doesn't matter to them whether there are direct trains or not.

Yes. I think the other problem is there are probably people living in parts of Greater Manchester, Cheshire, Merseyside and slightly further afield who would consider working at the airport and make over 200 return journeys to and from the airport every year, if only the public transport allowed them to get there for the times which roles require e.g. a possible 4am start. On the other hand a family in Newcastle can get a direct train to the airport for their once a year family holiday.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes. I think the other problem is there are probably people living in parts of Greater Manchester, Cheshire, Merseyside and slightly further afield who would consider working at the airport and make over 200 return journeys to and from the airport every year, if only the public transport allowed them to get there for the times which roles require e.g. a possible 4am start. On the other hand a family in Newcastle can get a direct train to the airport for their once a year family holiday.

...when they also have several other airports within reach.

I do think as someone else says the tail wags the dog with regard to Manchester Airport, and it needs to be bumped several levels down the importance list. For instance serving it as it is at present (a) uses two scarce Class 185s for services which aren't even half full while others leave people behind, (b) prevents the operation of a proper regular interval local service on the Styal line, and (c) adds two more services to the Ordsall Chord, making the issues even greater. And all so Bob and Julie can have their annual week in Torremolinos without having to drag their excessively sized trolley cases about 50m on the flat in Piccadilly?

It's ludicrous. Can you imagine, say, GWR being driven by it to that extent? And Ee'throw is a much bigger and more important airport than Manchester will ever be.

 

[northwichcat]

...when they also have several other airports within reach.

I do think as someone else says the tail wags the dog with regard to Manchester Airport, and it needs to be bumped several levels down the importance list. For instance serving it as it is at present (a) uses two scarce Class 185s for services which aren't even half full while others leave people behind, (b) prevents the operation of a proper regular interval local service on the Styal line, and (c) adds two more services to the Ordsall Chord, making the issues even greater. And all so Bob and Julie can have their annual week in Torremolinos without having to drag their excessively sized trolley cases about 50m on the flat in Piccadilly?

It's ludicrous. Can you imagine, say, GWR being driven by it to that extent? And Ee'throw is a much bigger and more important airport than Manchester will ever be.

What I forgot to say before is Manchester Airport are now putting restrictions on who can and can't drop off or pick up passengers at the Airport station, with charges being applied even to stop for 2 minutes to drop off a passenger. If you live in Hale Barns you will be able to continue to do so but only if you buy an annual pass which might be cheaper if you drop off or pick up passengers on a regular basis, while if you live in Knutsford you can't get an annual pass and must pay every time. The result is going to be the airport station will become less like useful for people travelling between South Manchester/North Cheshire and Yorkshire, Lancashire, Cumbria and Scotland and more focused on being a station for passengers travelling to and from the airport.

 

[Bantamzen]

...when they also have several other airports within reach.

I do think as someone else says the tail wags the dog with regard to Manchester Airport, and it needs to be bumped several levels down the importance list. For instance serving it as it is at present (a) uses two scarce Class 185s for services which aren't even half full while others leave people behind, (b) prevents the operation of a proper regular interval local service on the Styal line, and (c) adds two more services to the Ordsall Chord, making the issues even greater. And all so Bob and Julie can have their annual week in Torremolinos without having to drag their excessively sized trolley cases about 50m on the flat in Piccadilly?

It's ludicrous. Can you imagine, say, GWR being driven by it to that extent? And Ee'throw is a much bigger and more important airport than Manchester will ever be.

Meanwhile daarn'south calls continue for better connectivity to Heathrow from the surrounding counties....

Its not ludicrous at all, the growth through the station has shown that. Are you seriously expecting both operators and the airport to ignore that? And Manchester doesn't just serve Costa del Cheapo, it has a growing list of long haul flights with ambitions for much more growth. These ambitions mean more capacity is needed to get passengers to the terminals, not less.

Quite honestly I think Manchester's biggest problem, aside from being stuck on the end of a half thougt out branch, is that it doesn't serve the new towns of Buckinghamshire. I'm sure if the airport where located there calls for it to be served from every corner of the known universe would be plentiful here....

 

[Puffing Devil]

Meanwhile daarn'south calls continue for better connectivity to Heathrow from the surrounding counties....

Its not ludicrous at all, the growth through the station has shown that. Are you seriously expecting both operators and the airport to ignore that? And Manchester doesn't just serve Costa del Cheapo, it has a growing list of long haul flights with ambitions for much more growth. These ambitions mean more capacity is needed to get passengers to the terminals, not less.

Quite honestly I think Manchester's biggest problem, aside from being stuck on the end of a half thougt out branch, is that it doesn't serve the new towns of Buckinghamshire. I'm sure if the airport where located there calls for it to be served from every corner of the known universe would be plentiful here....

It's how the airport is served, not why.

Mixing local commuters with long-distance travellers on the "half thought out" branch is the issue.

A regular, dedicated, shuttle from Piccadilly like the Heathrow Express, combined with an hourly Crewe-Manchester via Airport stopper, like Heathrow Connect, would be enough to meet the local need. Longer distance TPE trains could still start from the airport, just ditch the stupid Crewe-Airport-Liverpool and other nonsense trains. Having those local services run to and from Manchester stations will improve the resilience and take most people where they want to go.

 

[Bantamzen]

It's how the airport is served, not why.

Mixing local commuters with long-distance travellers on the "half thought out" branch is the issue.

A regular, dedicated, shuttle from Piccadilly like the Heathrow Express, combined with an hourly Crewe-Manchester via Airport stopper, like Heathrow Connect, would be enough to meet the local need. Longer distance TPE trains could still start from the airport, just ditch the stupid Crewe-Airport-Liverpool and other nonsense trains. Having those local services run to and from Manchester stations will improve the resilience and take most people where they want to go.

The problem is what to do with some of the services arriving from the west. There's little to no capacity to turn them around at Oxford Road or Piccadilly, and diverting them to Victoria to terminate will just cause snarl-ups there.

The bottom line is that the Ordsall Chord was not in itself the solution, it should have been combined at least with Piccadilly platforms 15-16, and preferably with the Stalybridge & North TP wiring. Furthermore Manchester Airport should have had the western link built, which would have allowed at least some western services to pass through & terminate in the bays at Piccadilly. But as with all things at DafT, penny pinching & half-arsed solutions resulted in all of these either being all but ditched, or shoved onto a long forgotten shelf. The numbers of people using not just the airport but N/W services in general is growing, and as such a more comprehensive improvement scheme should have been authorized years ago.

I'd like to think that lessons will be learned after this, but my head says that all the DafT & the Minister need is another distraction. And then the third runway at Heathrow just happened to come back into focus. Expect little further to be done other than lip service. Its all very, very depressingly familiar....

 

[northwichcat]

Northern have added in a 22:45 Chester to Manchester service this Sunday so people can get home from the Paloma Faith gig at Delamere Forest. However, had they implemented the TSR2 Sunday enhancements (due in December 2017) that service would have existed in the timetable anyway!

 

[Jamesrob637]

Somebody reported on the "Northern Rails Problems in Lancashire" thread that there have been no full cancellations this morning; albeit that's against the emergency timetable.

Regarding what jcollins said about the "Paloma Faith extra" that was disappointing Northern didn't enhance the Mid-Cheshire Sunday frequency. It doesn't depend on new stock or electrification; maybe it could be implemented in August/September as a halfway compromise between timetable changes.

 

[geoffk]

Somebody reported on the "Northern Rails Problems in Lancashire" thread that there have been no full cancellations this morning; albeit that's against the emergency timetable.

Regarding what jcollins said about the "Paloma Faith extra" that was disappointing Northern didn't enhance the Mid-Cheshire Sunday frequency. It doesn't depend on new stock or electrification; maybe it could be implemented in August/September as a halfway compromise between timetable changes.

Now that a rest-day working agreement for drivers is in place, Northern should be able to put a date on the completion of the driver training programme. Should these two events not allow the full timetable to be reinstated?

 

[30907]

Now that a rest-day working agreement for drivers is in place, Northern should be able to put a date on the completion of the driver training programme. Should these two events not allow the full timetable to be reinstated?

Yes, when the training programme is complete to the level originally planned for 20 May.

 

[jfollows]

Tomorrow's Observer seems to have an article: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/jun/09/uk-railways-great-timetable-fiasco-whats-gone-wrong and I feel that it's generally accurate. Apart from saying that the entirety of the "railway industry" seems unable to survive any contact it has with reality over recent months it seems to cover the bases.

The great timetable fiasco: what’s gone wrong with England’s railways?

The fundamental problem was the lack of drivers. Both GTR and the company that operates Northern’s franchise, Arriva Rail North, claim to be employing more than enough drivers to run the expanded services the May timetable was due to provide. However, what is needed on every train is a driver who has been trained both on the exact model of train and the full route they are to operate. That takes time and resources: new drivers are trained by qualified drivers, taking them out of the action too and compounding the shortage.

That, of course, is foreseeable – which is why services have to be planned many months in advance. Normally, the process of setting timetables starts 16 months ahead, to be thrashed out by train companies and approved by Network Rail – the state-owned operator of Britain’s rail infrastructure – with three to six months to spare. This time, it was a matter of weeks.

 

[johntea]

Due to points failure and late running yesterday, the 17:11 York to Leeds via Harrogate did a non stop run from Harrogate to Leeds in quite an impressive 22 minutes or so! (Class 170).

Doubt it would have enough demand for Northern to ever introduce such a service but it would be nice! (I know they proposed slightly more express services for this timetable but not that express!)