Northern timetable plan for May 2018

[NorthernSpirit]

Anyone care to speculate what a ''planning error' is a euphemism for?

Due to a severe cock up in the May 2018 timetable, please listen for further announcements.

In all seriousness though and it dawned on me earlier that had Geoff and Vicki decided to do 'All The Stations' in 2018 instead of 2017, I could imagine Geoff looking exhausted, drained and confused at the camera and stating "that its all gone wrong and the timetable just simply doesn't make any sense whatsoever."

The timetable change does seem a bit half baked, unfinished and with bits missing, a sort of rush job that hasn't quite gone to plan. Lets hope that the December change will be a sign of relief.

 

[MetroCar4058]

Not great at Oxford Road earlier, most trains delayed or cancelled. The cancelled Northern service to Liverpool arrives before being reinstated 15 minutes later after the guard contacts disruption to highlight that there are enough drivers and guards at the station to run the service, which he was told was ending at PIC.

Frontline staff appear to be as informed as passengers and Northern ops appear to be in crisis.

 

[js1000]

Not great at Oxford Road earlier, most trains delayed or cancelled. The cancelled Northern service to Liverpool arrives before being reinstated 15 minutes later after the guard contacts disruption to highlight that there are enough drivers and guards at the station to run the service, which he was told was ending at PIC.

Frontline staff appear to be as informed as passengers and Northern ops appear to be in crisis.

Something bad has happened at Oxford Road - the place has become a law unto itself and perhaps best sums up Northern's shambolic operations over the past two weeks. No tannoy announcements at all anymore with passengers and Northern staff looking bewildered.

Northern train changed to platform 3 without any announcement as I waited on platform 4 on Wednesday evening. Luckily I saw it behind the train held on platform 4. Tranpennine Express to Manchester Airport on Friday evening stopped on platform 4 but departure board said this train was not in service despite passengers still on it. Again no tannoy announcements to clarify the situation for passengers. I jumped on it and got to Piccadilly (where I wanted to get off) but it was cancelled when it arrived.

Northern need to get a grip on it as platform alterations were made for Oxford Road and tannoy announcements absolutely necessary.

 

[fowler9]

The CLC route is currently a joke.

 

[Foxcover]

Stopped just west of the Ordsall Chord on a Llandudno-Manchester Airport service on Tuesday, it struck me how much congestion and conflicts the Chord can cause - we were just 4-5 mins down all the way from Chester but were held while a series of TPEs in both directions traversed the Chord ahead of us. That plus the wait for the platform occupied by the prioritised TPE meant the delay quickly soared to 12 minutes, arriving at Oxford Rd at 1202. Guard was very apologetic and blamed ‘congestion and the number of trains in the area’. Anyone else spending a lot of time stopped at Ordsall Lane watching the congestion?

 

[geoffk]

Stopped just west of the Ordsall Chord on a Llandudno-Manchester Airport service on Tuesday, it struck me how much congestion and conflicts the Chord can cause - we were just 4-5 mins down all the way from Chester but were held while a series of TPEs in both directions traversed the Chord ahead of us. That plus the wait for the platform occupied by the prioritised TPE meant the delay quickly soared to 12 minutes, arriving at Oxford Rd at 1202. Guard was very apologetic and blamed ‘congestion and the number of trains in the area’. Anyone else spending a lot of time stopped at Ordsall Lane watching the congestion?

Quite a bit of time stopped at Castlefield Jn. You've now got four routes converging on the double track at Deansgate, with trains approaching from as far away as Newcastle and Glasgow. I noted a few trains diverted to platform 1 at Oxford Road, despite the lack of a lift. Is it feasible to put in a lift? All five platforms need to be in regular use. Of course, if no. 4 is lengthened, then 5 disappears!

 

[Allwinter_Kit]

I've noticed there seems to be a lot more hanging around outside both Manchester Stations and Leeds. The timetable clearly needs everything to be bang on time or it starts to snowball - and it seems delays/cancellations at one place are transferring more readily to the other (and i assume elsewhere on the Northern/TPE network too).

The trouble is that the level of punctuality demanded by this time timetable seems so exacting that it just isn't going to be hit day in, day out - not with the current rolling stock options being so stretched. It does look like rather than being any kind of 'bedding in' period this level of delay and early termination on routes may be the norm until December.

 

[js1000]

Stopped just west of the Ordsall Chord on a Llandudno-Manchester Airport service on Tuesday, it struck me how much congestion and conflicts the Chord can cause - we were just 4-5 mins down all the way from Chester but were held while a series of TPEs in both directions traversed the Chord ahead of us. That plus the wait for the platform occupied by the prioritised TPE meant the delay quickly soared to 12 minutes, arriving at Oxford Rd at 1202. Guard was very apologetic and blamed ‘congestion and the number of trains in the area’. Anyone else spending a lot of time stopped at Ordsall Lane watching the congestion?

The only good thing to come out of the timetable is that it has proved the Ordsall Chord is, however well-meaning the intentions are, is operationally useless without, at the very least two additional through platforms at Piccadilly - and preferably quad track between it and Oxford Road.

The government and Network Rail digging their heels in over this issue so I imagine this will reignite the debate. A lot of the problems are stemming from the bottleneck through Manchester and the Styal Line to the Airport - ultimately creating congestion, knock on delays and cancellations for services. Binning one of the services between Liverpool and Crewe via Manchester and dividing it into two commuter services (as it was before the new timetable) would be a wise move to relieve some congestion through Manchester.

 

[Bantamzen]

The only good thing to come out of the timetable is that it has proved the Ordsall Chord is, however well-meaning the intentions are, is operationally useless without, at the very least two additional through platforms at Piccadilly - and preferably quad track between it and Oxford Road.

The government and Network Rail digging their heels in over this issue so I imagine this will reignite the debate. A lot of the problems are stemming from the bottleneck through Manchester and the Styal Line to the Airport - ultimately creating congestion, knock on delays and cancellations for services. Binning one of the services between Liverpool and Crewe via Manchester and dividing it into two commuter services (as it was before the new timetable) would be a wise move to relieve some congestion through Manchester.

I'd argue further, not only is the Piccadilly expansion urgently needed but all the proposed improvements between Manchester & Leeds, including wiring need financing & getting into actual works as soon as possible. Not only is extra capacity needed but improved acceleration profiles so that less services trip over each other and bunch up in places like Manchester, which cause more problems not only for those but all others around.

 

[Chester1]

The only good thing to come out of the timetable is that it has proved the Ordsall Chord is, however well-meaning the intentions are, is operationally useless without, at the very least two additional through platforms at Piccadilly - and preferably quad track between it and Oxford Road.

The government and Network Rail digging their heels in over this issue so I imagine this will reignite the debate. A lot of the problems are stemming from the bottleneck through Manchester and the Styal Line to the Airport - ultimately creating congestion, knock on delays and cancellations for services. Binning one of the services between Liverpool and Crewe via Manchester and dividing it into two commuter services (as it was before the new timetable) would be a wise move to relieve some congestion through Manchester.

Quad tracking is an enthusiasts fantasy that has not been seriously considered by DfT or TfN. Pairing platforms at Oxford Road with 4 through platforms at Piccadilly would increase capacity by ~50%. That would include long enough tracks into Piccadilly to allow units to wait but thats as close to 4 tracking as we will ever see. Rebuilding Castlefield Junction to allow higher line speeds would also help too. I might be wrong but I think the plans for Piccadilly platforms 15 and 16 require shortening 13 and 14 which would mean they wouldn't be able to opperate as separate platforms. I would divert ATW Llandudno service into Victoria but that would be politically difficult.

 

[thejuggler]

I've only traversed the Chord once and that was back in December, just after it opened, but long before the timetable change.

Even back then we crawled from Victoria and then waited an age on the Chord to get access to Oxford Road - (I'd forgotten what a hole it was). I can therefore sympathise with those who are seeing problems now even more services are using the route.

 

[The Planner]

I think you are wrong, Mr Locke may correct me but the platforms would allow a train to arrive in 14 as one was in or about to depart 13 and vice versa. Rebuilding Castlefield isnt going to gain you much, you need it all similar from every spoke and through the corridor.

 

[Howardh]

I remember they closed Deansgate at Xmas to avoid heavy pax traffic.

Could they simply close Oxford Road (and Deansgate) until this shambles is sorted out, and put on extra free buses from Piccadilly?

 

[Bantamzen]

I remember they closed Deansgate at Xmas to avoid heavy pax traffic.

Could they simply close Oxford Road (and Deansgate) until this shambles is sorted out, and put on extra free buses from Piccadilly?

The problem with that would be that you would go to 6 available platforms to manage cross-Manchester services, crew changes etc to 2 (potentially 4 if 2 services could be squeezed onto P13-14). So you'd simply be shifting the problem from A to B and risking causing even more passenger congestion with less platform space.

 

[Deerfold]

I was at Bradford Interchange around 1825 last night. Every train in both directions was late - but each had a different excuse (though many were unintelligible as they did not fit on the screen and did not scroll). There were 3 trains in the Leeds direction before one arrived for Halifax.

 

[northernchris]

I've noticed there seems to be a lot more hanging around outside both Manchester Stations and Leeds. The timetable clearly needs everything to be bang on time or it starts to snowball - and it seems delays/cancellations at one place are transferring more readily to the other (and i assume elsewhere on the Northern/TPE network too).

The trouble is that the level of punctuality demanded by this time timetable seems so exacting that it just isn't going to be hit day in, day out - not with the current rolling stock options being so stretched. It does look like rather than being any kind of 'bedding in' period this level of delay and early termination on routes may be the norm until December.

Unfortunately this seems to be the case. At Leeds there seems to be more trains crossing lines now due to how they are interlinked which means more hanging around at signals. Combine that with TPE seeming to get priority at every junction, signal and platform and it soon ripples on to the other operators. I've also noticed a few conflicts with the timetable, for example at Leeds there's a 1838 Edinburgh and 1839 Newcastle which seems impossible for the 1839 to ever leave on time when the 1838 does.

I was at Bradford Interchange around 1825 last night. Every train in both directions was late - but each had a different excuse (though many were unintelligible as they did not fit on the screen and did not scroll). There were 3 trains in the Leeds direction before one arrived for Halifax.

Yesterday was a bad day on the Calder Valley - a quick look on the departure boards at the Interchange around 1745 had nothing due towards Leeds until after 1820 so it was a case of heading to Forster Square!

 

[thejuggler]

I spoke to a friend tonight who commutes from east of Leeds and changes for a service to Bradford.

This morning he had 9 minutes to cross to platform 10b for a Victoria service. A Unit arrived on platform and everyone got off. Guard was then closing the doors. Guard had no idea if it was a Man Vic service he was closing up.

Friend then checked and his phone said platform 5, on station info still said 10b. After asking another member of station staff he was none the wiser. With 2 minutes to go it changed to 5 on the station. He just made it.

This has been typical for the last two weeks.

 

[Allwinter_Kit]

With 2 minutes to go it changed to 5 on the station. He just made it.

This has been typical for the last two weeks.

Last time i was at Leeds Station (Tuesday morning this week, luckily!) Nearly every single platform number on the departure boards was flashing showing a change - it was kind of like a very disappointing disco! I'll see if it is as bad tomorrow morning on my way through. I'm attempting Skipton to Altrincham - could be fun (!)

 

[Bevan Price]

If RTT is correct, it looks as if Earlestown, St. Helens Jn., Rainhill & Whiston had no trains towards Liverpool for over 5 hours today (31 May). Of course, when we had a proper railway system, special stops would have been made by some of the express services, but now they are separate companies (Northern TPE), such sensible alternatives seem to be impossible...

 

[Allwinter_Kit]

Nearly every single platform number on the departure boards was flashing showing a change - it was kind of like a very disappointing disco!

Fair play to them - this morning is looking a lot better (on this side of the Pennines at least...)

 

[Bantamzen]

Unfortunately this seems to be the case. At Leeds there seems to be more trains crossing lines now due to how they are interlinked which means more hanging around at signals. Combine that with TPE seeming to get priority at every junction, signal and platform and it soon ripples on to the other operators. I've also noticed a few conflicts with the timetable, for example at Leeds there's a 1838 Edinburgh and 1839 Newcastle which seems impossible for the 1839 to ever leave on time when the 1838 does.

I've noticed some odd paths with the new timetable, one in particular the 06:16 from Guiseley into Leeds (06:02 from Ilkley) that is now my regular commute. It approaches Leeds West towards signal C at the western throat, but then uses the last crossover to approach signal B to enter into P6. However as the service is now booked for a 321/322 it makes up a bit of time so the 06:30 arrival actually translates more as around 06:27, which means it trips over the 06:26 for Skipton leaving P4. But better still the 06:23 to Harrogate seems to be quite regularly late as it is part of an ECS move into P9 which also brings in the 06:18 to Knottingley & 06:32 to York at the same time. So it is already common for the incoming Ilkley to be sitting outside for 4-5 minutes as the two conflicting moves get out of the way. However if the services was pathed towards signal A & P1 as previously, there would only be one possible conflict.

Its nothing compared to the issues in the N/W, but slightly annoying as if it came in one time I usually have just enough time to bomb across to City Square to pick up a number 4 to save me walking across Leeds (lazy I know!). But it does lend itself to the thought that the paths offered up by NR aren't the best.

 

[Redmike]

So we keep running more and more trains on the same tracks and then end up with congestion. Would we be better off running longer trains slightly less frequently?

 

[Bovverboy]

If RTT is correct, it looks as if Earlestown, St. Helens Jn., Rainhill & Whiston had no trains towards Liverpool for over 5 hours today (31 May). Of course, when we had a proper railway system, special stops would have been made by some of the express services, but now they are separate companies (Northern TPE), such sensible alternatives seem to be impossible...

Eccles and Patricroft had no trains to Liverpool for five and a half hours (1259 to 1828), and none to Manchester for ten (1217 to 2216). The last train of the day to operate to Liverpool did so at 2049, almost three hours prior to the last scheduled. (Times quoted are for Patricroft).

 

[Bletchleyite]

So we keep running more and more trains on the same tracks and then end up with congestion. Would we be better off running longer trains slightly less frequently?

Yes.

A minimum train length of say 100m through Castlefield would be a good start. Anything shorter needs to portion work or be reduced in frequency - or be considered if it is needed at all.

 

[YorkshireBear]

BBC news report that Northern have said there will be an emergency timetable from Monday. No other comments, would be surprised if it is that soon?

 

[northwichcat]

BBC news report that Northern have said there will be an emergency timetable from Monday. No other comments, would be surprised if it is that soon?

RTT is showing all Windermere branch services replaced by buses from Monday: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...4/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=NT

It also looks like they've already decided to start the Piccadilly-Bolton-Blackpool service at Oxford Rd and of course they'll be the changes due to Lime Street closure which were happening on Monday anyway.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

On the WCML and GWML (and probably other main lines) there is a well-developed "Plan B" at times of major disruption.
Things like cancelling the Tring terminators, the WLL service, one each of the 3 VTs to Birmingham/Manchester.
The GWML thins out services, with remaining trains calling at all main stations.
WMT turn one of the Birmingham-Liverpools at Crewe, etc, etc.
It seems clear that Northern and TPE don't have such an emergency timetable, or they would have implemented it.
Something like reducing 2tph to 1tph throughout the system, or turning certain routes short with remaining trains filling in.
Seems a glaring omission to have to go for random cancellations rather than switch to a planned lower frequency throughout.
The impression I get is that Northern's scheduling of services (stock and crews) is so complex and interdependent it cannot be unpicked in this way.

 

[Moonshot]

On the WCML and GWML (and probably other main lines) there is a well-developed "Plan B" at times of major disruption.
Things like cancelling the Tring terminators, the WLL service, one each of the 3 VTs to Birmingham/Manchester.
The GWML thins out services, with remaining trains calling at all main stations.
WMT turn one of the Birmingham-Liverpools at Crewe, etc, etc.
It seems clear that Northern and TPE don't have such an emergency timetable, or they would have implemented it.
Something like reducing 2tph to 1tph throughout the system, or turning certain routes short with remaining trains filling in.
Seems a glaring omission to have to go for random cancellations rather than switch to a planned lower frequency throughout.
The impression I get is that Northern's scheduling of services (stock and crews) is so complex and interdependent it cannot be unpicked in this way.

As I am one , it is indeed very complex. Not easy to unpick

 

[gavin]

Northern to axe 165 trains a day until the end of July

https://twitter.com/SkyNewsBreak/status/1002579856129974272

 

[158756]

Timetables up: https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/temporary-timetables

Windermere bus replacement for all services. Stalybridge-Manchester hourly off peak. Blackpool South, Colne, Ormskirk, Morecambe, Kirkby have random journeys replaced by buses. Blackpool - Manchester some fast services cancelled, not sure what else. And over in East Lancs we get random bits of the hourly Manchester service cancelled with no bus replacement.