Northern timetable plan for May 2018

[skifans]

I've only ever used it once. I got on at Lancaster and around 30 people were already onboard from previous stations. I'd estimate maybe a dozen were still onboard when we left Morecambe. I couldn't say how many where through passengers or not. 2 other passengers headed with me out of the station rather then onto the boat.

 

[northwichcat]

Here is a screenshot of the requirement I can see:
View attachment 46760

I missed that column. I thought there was a requirement for the services to be no more than x minutes apart somewhere so was looking for that and overlooking what was in that column. Regardless 2 minutes earlier than the last train requirement for TSR2 isn't exactly a massive breach when there's whole services required for TSR2 which aren't running.

 

[geoffk]

Though those aren't hard to cope with, really. Buy your ticket before you board, as you should be doing anyway, and it won't be a problem for you.

In theory, yes. We have many unstaffed stations here. Specific questions we have asked Northern -

a) what happens if/when a TVM is out of order?
b) what's the policy to be applied if a station has only one TVM and it's on the wrong platform for your direction of travel? It can be a long walk between platforms where the station is accessed from a road bridge OR if the only way across is via a level crossing you risk missing your train
c) what about split ticketing, which can save you money? Also those of us with PTE bus passes get concessions on rail (free or half-fare) and, if we want to travel beyond the boundary, need to buy a ticket for the outer section. TVMs will only sell tickets from the home station. Are we expected to get off, buy another ticket and wait for the next train, which could be an hour, or is buying on the train acceptable in these circumstances?

I'm retired and have a car so generally use the train only for leisure journeys, but for commuters with limited time these issues could be significant and the publicity does not address them.

 

[northwichcat]

a) what happens if/when a TVM is out of order?

I imagine Northern's answer is the TVM will report itself as being out-of-order. However, what about when the Northern TVM doesn't like a certain credit card? I've found the Parkeon TVMs like rejecting certain types of credit cards which always work fine at any ticket office or at any Fastticket machine.

 

[yorksrob]

I've only ever used it once. I got on at Lancaster and around 30 people were already onboard from previous stations. I'd estimate maybe a dozen were still onboard when we left Morecambe. I couldn't say how many where through passengers or not. 2 other passengers headed with me out of the station rather then onto the boat.

Travelling there mid-day on Saturdays, there are usually plenty who stay on the train when I get off at Lancaster. Coming back of an evening, there are always a few already on.

 

[30907]

I think this breaks a traditional service going back to Midland Railway days - except then, of course, trains ran via Lancaster Green Ayre. Even in the early 70s, via Carnforth (and, I think, the direct line Hest Bank to Bare Lane) this used to be 2 x three car DMUs, Metro-Camell units, IIRC. (sorry, don't know the modern class numbers). I suspect this latest move will cut the attraction of rail for the boat - but I have no idea how many use the current service.

I don't think the service has run through from Leeds continuously - indeed, IIRC there was a short period in the early 90s when nothing from Leeds even went to Morecambe - and for some years around then or subequently it ran through from Preston or beyond (Liverpool IIRC), which TBH I would have thought a bigger market than Leeds.

 

[skifans]

Travelling there mid-day on Saturdays, there are usually plenty who stay on the train when I get off at Lancaster. Coming back of an evening, there are always a few already on.

I don't think the service has run through from Leeds continuously - indeed, IIRC there was a short period in the early 90s when nothing from Leeds even went to Morecambe - and for some years around then or subequently it ran through from Preston or beyond (Liverpool IIRC), which TBH I would have thought a bigger market than Leeds.

A reasonable amount of people come through from Morecambe, certainly on off peak services - and I'd say its gets more through passengers per train then Heysham Harbour. My memory of the changes is that trains will still run through from Leeds to Morecambe, but less then at the moment. It was the Leeds to Heysham one which was being replaced by a Lancaster to Heysham.

 

[CHESHIRECAT]

Brand new TVM"s don't take American Express !

 

[Deerfold]

Surprised to see that since last week, Halifax has gained another two ticket machines. Used one to collect a couple of tickets. It failed midway, having printed one combined ticket and reservation and one reservation. I had to go to the ticket office to get the other ticket printed out (which they did, no problem).

 

[70014IronDuke]

I don't think the service has run through from Leeds continuously - indeed, IIRC there was a short period in the early 90s when nothing from Leeds even went to Morecambe - and for some years around then or subequently it ran through from Preston or beyond (Liverpool IIRC), which TBH I would have thought a bigger market than Leeds.

Ah. Thanks for the correction. In fact, after posting, I did wonder if I'd been too bold in this. I was pretty much out of the scene 1980-95.

 

[Statto]

Here's a thought, how some passengers will get confused from the weekend by the timetable changes, end up on the stopper from Crewe to Liverpool which goes through Manchester by mistake rather than getting the faster one that goes via Runcorn?

 

[Jamesrob637]

For all the controversy surrounding Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme peak servces, they still have 5 trains per hour from 07:00-08:00. Three of these are from Stoke, Crewe and Alderley Edge respectively so should be 319/323, however has anybody any info as to whether the 06:49 Hazel Grove to Manchester Piccadilly (the 07:01 from Heaton Chapel) and the 07:25 Buxton to Piccadilly (the 07:25 from Heaton Chapel) will be 4-car? Particularly the latter; the former may get away with 2-car depending on what it does after arrival in Picc. Just so I can tell my fellow commuters who still make the journey which train is best to catch!

 

[thealexweb]

however has anybody any info as to whether the 06:49 Hazel Grove to Manchester Piccadilly (the 07:01 from Heaton Chapel)

For what its worth the 06:49 is currently timed for a 142 but from next week this has been changed to timed as a 323. So Northern will probably attempt to use an EMU where possible.

 

[notlob.divad]

Here's a thought, how some passengers will get confused from the weekend by the timetable changes, end up on the stopper from Crewe to Liverpool which goes through Manchester by mistake rather than getting the faster one that goes via Runcorn?

I suspect they will get around that by advertising at Crewe, that it is the Northern Service to Edge Hill and at Liverpool the Northern Service to Sandbach (1 stop short). Then once on the train it will state the final destination, - like they do in other places.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Or they could say Crewe via Manchester

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Here's a thought, how some passengers will get confused from the weekend by the timetable changes, end up on the stopper from Crewe to Liverpool which goes through Manchester by mistake rather than getting the faster one that goes via Runcorn?

Well for a start, on Day 1 (Sunday 20th) there are no trains Crewe-Wilmslow, and ATW runs to Manchester OR via Warrington!
Then after 2 weeks of through Northern services to Liverpool everything reverts to Manchester terminators because of the Lime St blockade - for 8 weeks.
It will be the end of July before things become "normal".

 

[Bovverboy]

Statto said: ↑
Here's a thought, how some passengers will get confused from the weekend by the timetable changes, end up on the stopper from Crewe to Liverpool which goes through Manchester by mistake rather than getting the faster one that goes via Runcorn?

I suspect they will get around that by advertising at Crewe, that it is the Northern Service to Edge Hill and at Liverpool the Northern Service to Sandbach (1 stop short). Then once on the train it will state the final destination, - like they do in other places.

I don't think that departures from Crewe will be announced as terminating at Edge Hill, since it is going to be considerably faster to travel from Crewe to Edge Hill via Runcorn (by changing at Liverpool South Parkway) than it is by using the stopper. Whether the destination is announced as 'Wavertree Technology Park', or anywhere else before Liverpool Lime Street, remains to be seen.
The current norm in the Manchester area is to distinguish between various routings by 'via', e.g. Crewe via Manchester Airport, Chester via Altrincham, Chester via Warrington Bank Quay. It will be interesting to see if the new stopper breaks the mould.

 

[ajdunlop]

Just in case anyone has missed it well as me... there is a thread talking about TPEs use of Mark 3 coaches in loco hauled sets here https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...o-use-mk3s-on-limited-services.144501/page-20. These were to be a temporary measure until the new Mark 5s arrive. It looks like these will not be used until after the Liverpool Lime Street closure in June and July.
I mention it here as it may be of interest because of the TPE take over of the Stalybridge to Huddersfield stops. It looks like until the Liverpool closure there will be the extra TPE service an hour introduced but this may have to involve shortening of existing peak 6 unit trains (although TPE will get back a couple of 185s currently on loan to northern). This should ease during the Liverpool closure as services will be cut back to Victoria then.

 

[Starmill]

The current norm in the Manchester area is to distinguish between various routings by 'via', e.g. Crewe via Manchester Airport, Chester via Altrincham, Chester via Warrington Bank Quay.

Crewe, Alderley Edge or Wilmslow trains at Manchester Piccadilly are not currently advertised with a via point.

Chester trains are, with Warrington Bank Quay and Altrincham respectively, as you suggest. I don't know why the one and not the other.

Northern services to Sheffield are advertised as 'Local Stopping Service'.

 

[Statto]

Manchester-Crewe trains are advertised as via Manchester Airport or Stockport, i was on one a few weeks ago on a Cheshire Day Ranger, which was advertised via Manchester Airport.

 

[DanTrain]

Sorry if this has already been covered, but just having a look on RTT, Northern appear to have made the Hope Valley services hourly, but then introduced some skip-stopping. For example, one train (15:45 Sheff - Man) runs Sheffield - Hope - Chinley and then usual service to Manchester. I must question who is going to be using this between Sheffield and New Mills - Hope and Chinley don't supply a whole train, nor does eastern Manchester from Sheffield, and anyone going all the way would use the fasts. I assume this has been done to allow for freight, but it does seems odd. The same goes for the 13:14 (Sheff - Man), which skips Dore and Edale for no discernable reason.

Equally, going the other way there are two skip-stop trains (19:49 and 21:19 Man-Sheff), one of which skips the entire Hope Valley, the other skips Edale and Grindleford. Surely having 4 skip-stops per day which skip different stations will just be unnessesarily complicated. It leads to changing times every hour, and surely it will lead to people boarding a train to a stop at which it doesn't call (in particular from the stations without any DMIs or announcements).

I know it's in the best intentions of squeezing in as many trains as possible, but this doesn't strike me as the best way of doing anything!

 

[js1000]

Brand new TVM"s don't take American Express !

It's a joke quite frankly. I've contacted Northern about this previously and they've clearly just ignored my view.

One of the benefits of having a credit card is that if it is cloned at an unmanned mobile payment unit like a TVM, the passenger doesn't lose money and it's upto the credit card company to reimburse the card owner and chase up the money.

 

[IanXC]

It's a joke quite frankly. I've contacted Northern about this previously and they've clearly just ignored my view.

One of the benefits of having a credit card is that if it is cloned at an unmanned mobile payment unit like a TVM, the passenger doesn't lose money and it's upto the credit card company to reimburse the card owner and chase up the money.

Amex are not the only card network.

And under the Payment Services Regulations there is no discernable difference between your rights with regard unauthorised transactions between Credit (whether Visa/Mastercard/Amex etc etc) and Debit cards.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Brand new TVM"s don't take American Express !

I think that would be a viable reason to buy on-board.

 

[Harpers Tate]

Why is it that the Railway (actually in common with some other large bodies) can't come to a single answer to a question such as "What Methods of Payment Do We Accept" and then apply that single answer consistently across their entire suite? Similarly, why would each and every different type of ticket issuing machine work in a subtly different manner, making human error more likely? Why do various participants EACH employ staff and/or external companies to devise what end up being different systems or procedures to achieve the same end result - thus costing themselves (and therefore us) more, and resulting in these pointless and confusing differences? And (in this specific case) placing the passenger in a position of risk that, having been unable to pay by their chosen means (a means that the Railway in general purports to accept), they board without paying and get somewhow penalised for so doing.

 

[AndrewE]

Short answer: because there isn't "a Railway."
It might have passed you by, but there are lots of separate TOCs and Franchises deliberately as a result of government policy. It is probably illegal for them to get together to arrange something they are not actually required to do by law, just as "competing" bus companies are not allowed to arrange a sensible timetable that would suit the public better than the current shambles.

 

[skifans]

Went to Lancaster to pick up some visitors today and they happened to be arriving around the time of the Heysham port train so I gave it a quick count. Ballpark figures but around 20 got on, 50 got off and 10 stayed on as through passengers. No way of knowing who was going through to Morecambe/Bare or Heysham though. I also noticed a little farewell sign from the friends of Bentham line group which was a nice touch but I didn't notice any other passengers reading it.

Sorry if this has already been covered, but just having a look on RTT, Northern appear to have made the Hope Valley services hourly, but then introduced some skip-stopping. For example, one train (15:45 Sheff - Man) runs Sheffield - Hope - Chinley and then usual service to Manchester. I must question who is going to be using this between Sheffield and New Mills - Hope and Chinley don't supply a whole train, nor does eastern Manchester from Sheffield, and anyone going all the way would use the fasts. I assume this has been done to allow for freight, but it does seems odd. The same goes for the 13:14 (Sheff - Man), which skips Dore and Edale for no discernable reason.

Equally, going the other way there are two skip-stop trains (19:49 and 21:19 Man-Sheff), one of which skips the entire Hope Valley, the other skips Edale and Grindleford. Surely having 4 skip-stops per day which skip different stations will just be unnessesarily complicated. It leads to changing times every hour, and surely it will lead to people boarding a train to a stop at which it doesn't call (in particular from the stations without any DMIs or announcements).

I know it's in the best intentions of squeezing in as many trains as possible, but this doesn't strike me as the best way of doing anything!

Agreed its quite annoying and the timetable now requires considerably more checking. It seems esspicily strange for the 1314 to skip Dore, one of the busiest stations - I can only assume its due to pathing with something going the other way though the single track section there. But if thats the case then it doesn't leave much leeway for something to go wrong.

 

[agbrs_Jack]

I missed that column. I thought there was a requirement for the services to be no more than x minutes apart somewhere so was looking for that and overlooking what was in that column. Regardless 2 minutes earlier than the last train requirement for TSR2 isn't exactly a massive breach when there's whole services required for TSR2 which aren't running.

If they can get away with running ONE minute after the requirement, I can complain about TWO minutes before it! And with a massive numbers of calls for it to be later, making it earlier is a backwards step!

 

[transmanche]

Short answer: because there isn't "a Railway."

But there is a 'Railway Delivery Group' (of which all TOCs are members).

It might have passed you by, but there are lots of separate TOCs and Franchises deliberately as a result of government policy. It is probably illegal for them to get together to arrange something they are not actually required to do by law

Sounds like nonsense to me.

I think 11 TOCs have mobile apps based on Masabi's 'JustRide UK' platform, which is why so many of them look very similar and have a similar UI & 'workflow'. Similarly, a number of TOCS have used the same online TIS - each one effectively just a reskinning of the same core system.

It just takes effort to organise a 'standard' UI/workflow for TVMs amongst all TOCs - which would even deliver economies of scale.

 

[Harpers Tate]

It might have passed you by....

No, it hasn't. And my point remains. The disparate separate companies to whom you refer are bound to participate (at the very least, as regards ordinary "Any Permitted" types of ticket, and probably to a much broader degree) in The Railway. One cannot compare to independent bus operators outside London for whom almost the exact opposite is mandated. Their particpation in The Railway could easily and should extend to all interfaces with the passengers, including at ticket issuing facilities, manned or not.