Northern timetable plan for May 2018

[TUC]

As said, I recognise the DfT's role. The issue is that its not tenable for Northern to take the credit in publicity for the improvements but to deflect any criticism of the detrements as them being a DfT matter. They can't have it both ways.

There is also the issue of, if the discussion on the train was correct, Northern are relooking at the matter. If they were totally boxed in by DfT requirements that wouldn't even be an option.

 

[Chester1]

Wow. An impressive three page read there.

Every discussion about hs2 descends into people in the north dont all want to go to london, improve local services. But here we are argueing about a lack of journey oppurtunity from mirfield to London and that the new local services aren't worth it.

Proof that the rail industry will never win because as a country most passengers fail to see the need beyond their own.

Great post!

Anyone who is remotely neutral can see that the limited Mirfield to London market is more than adequately served by Grand Central. Modern Railways reported last month that they are intending to apply for an extra peak time Bradford Interchange service in addition to splitting and joining units at Doncaster to provide a London Cleethorpes service. Most people on this site and passengers in general prefer a direct service even if it takes a bit longer.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

You must have missed the consultations on the new franchises in 2014 then: https://www.gov.uk/government/consu...hern-and-transpennine-express-rail-franchises

By 2014 not only had Manchester to York electrification been announced but Rail North had announced their priorities for future electrification once Manchester to York was wired. There were also further local consultations following the franchise wide one.

So it sounds like you didn't express your opinion during the public consultation and you're unhappy with the result. That's a bit like saying you don't like the government but you don't vote in elections. :roll:

As you didn't bother reading what I actually said, here it is again:

Last consultation I went to, they said there were never any actual plans to electrify the Trans-Pennine route.
Therefore it hasn't been put on hold, let alone cancelled, as it never existed in the first place.

The people doing the presentation obviously lied.

 

[YorkshireBear]

As you didn't bother reading what I actually said, here it is again:

Last consultation I went to, they said there were never any actual plans to electrify the Trans-Pennine route.
Therefore it hasn't been put on hold, let alone cancelled, as it never existed in the first place.

The people doing the presentation obviously lied.

They did indeed. The electrification was part of the HLOS, just because it never got past GRIP 3 does not mean there were not plans.

 

[northwichcat]

As you didn't bother reading what I actually said, here it is again:

Last consultation I went to, they said there were never any actual plans to electrify the Trans-Pennine route.
Therefore it hasn't been put on hold, let alone cancelled, as it never existed in the first place.

The people doing the presentation obviously lied.

I read what you said

Last consultation I went to, they said there were never any actual plans to electrify the Trans-Pennine route.

So did you go to the DfT/Rail North one in York (which there was one of) or was it a Metro one in Leeds that you went to (which there have been multiple ones over several years): https://www.wymetro.com/corporate/wyltp/consultations/ ?

 

[Mathew S]

Last consultation I went to, they said there were never any actual plans to electrify the Trans-Pennine route.
Therefore it hasn't been put on hold, let alone cancelled, as it never existed in the first place.

Only yesterday you were complaining that there hadn't been any consultation about services in your area.
Now you're accusing the people doing the consulting of lying.

What, I wonder, would actually make you happy? Nothing ever changing so nobody sees improvements ever? Your own little train that goes where and when you need it to (otherwise known as a car)?

Any timetable change is a compromise. On this occasion you seen to have lost out, and I understand that's disappointing. However there are huge improvements happening which will benefit many more people than will lose out. Doing the best possible for the most people is the right way to run a railway, and that's what's happening.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

Only yesterday you were complaining that there hadn't been any consultation about services in your area.
Now you're accusing the people doing the consulting of lying.

What, I wonder, would actually make you happy? Nothing ever changing so nobody sees improvements ever? Your own little train that goes where and when you need it to (otherwise known as a car)?

Any timetable change is a compromise. On this occasion you seen to have lost out, and I understand that's disappointing. However there are huge improvements happening which will benefit many more people than will lose out. Doing the best possible for the most people is the right way to run a railway, and that's what's happening.

You're not very good at this reading thing are you?

I said the last one I went to.

I never said it was anything to do with the recast, as that wasn't even mentioned.

 

[Mathew S]

In actual timetable news, more and more Northern ( and TPE) services seem to be added each day now. Wigan/Liverpool services have started to appear, as have a couple of Scottish TPE trains.
Still much to be added, but it is a starting to take shape.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

I read what you said



So did you go to the DfT/Rail North one in York (which there was one of) or was it a Metro one in Leeds that you went to (which there have been multiple ones over several years): https://www.wymetro.com/corporate/wyltp/consultations/ ?

It was in the Salvation Army at Mirfield actually.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

They did indeed. The electrification was part of the HLOS, just because it never got past GRIP 3 does not mean there were not plans.

You know that, and I know that, but they pretended they didn't.

 

[Mathew S]

You're not very good at this reading thing are you?

I said the last one I went to.

I never said it was anything to do with the recast, as that wasn't even mentioned.

Because insulting me is the mature option of course. You'll find the ignore button on a user's profile. Cheerio.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

Because insulting me is the mature option of course. You'll find the ignore button on a user's profile. Cheerio.

No, telling the truth is.

You obviously "read" what you wanted, not what was written.

 

[northwichcat]

In actual timetable news, more and more Northern ( and TPE) services seem to be added each day now. Wigan/Liverpool services have started to appear, as have a couple of Scottish TPE trains.
Still much to be added, but it is a starting to take shape.

While there's still a lot of missing services it's not looking promising for service enhancements. The limited Buxton, Chester and Stoke services that are in are all-stops and look to be self-contained diagrams, opposed to ones which have other yet to be added services as part of the same diagram.

 

[Mathew S]

While there's still a lot of missing services it's not looking promising for service enhancements. The limited Buxton, Chester and Stoke services that are in are all-stops and look to be self-contained diagrams, opposed to ones which have other yet to be added services as part of the same diagram.

True. But I don't think there's enough there yet to start drawing much by way of conclusions.

Have to admit I'm slightly surprised that Wigan - Alderley Edge seems to be going ahead. I was expecting splitting that to use an EMU under the wires. Still, there's only one service each way in at present, so I suppose that could turn out to be the only one!

 

[yorksrob]

Wow. An impressive three page read there.

Every discussion about hs2 descends into people in the north dont all want to go to london, improve local services. But here we are argueing about a lack of journey oppurtunity from mirfield to London and that the new local services aren't worth it.

Proof that the rail industry will never win because as a country most passengers fail to see the need beyond their own.

When I use the service there seem to be a majority of people originating at or continuing to Westgate, rather than Kirkgate. There seem to be plenty who find that station more convenient generally, as well as those who make connections (which of course can be various places served by the ECML, not just London).

Either way, I think the Huddersfield - Wakefield service is about as local as you can get, bearing in mind it avoids Leeds, so it's not surprising that passengers in it's catchment area don't want to see it made less convenient.

The fact that we have these competing aspirations for the local regional railway is precisely why it needs investment.

 

[lejog]

It's the early morning trains that are particularly key to a pre-9 a.m. arrival in London
As for your final comment, it's a pity you can't take simple disagrerment.

Can I remind you of what you originally posted?

Mirfield to London on timings and frequency similar to the present?

Now when you've been presented with the facts you've changed your story from the generic "timings" to one particular "key" service. As I sometimes catch the Wakefield train from Mirfield (risking the 4 min connection off a Calder Valley service) to make journeys south, I was fully aware that this original claim was generally untrue. Disagreeing is fine, arguing with people prepared to use made up the facts to support their case is a waste of time.

 

[YorkshireBear]

When I use the service there seem to be a majority of people originating at or continuing to Westgate, rather than Kirkgate. There seem to be plenty who find that station more convenient generally, as well as those who make connections (which of course can be various places served by the ECML, not just London).

Either way, I think the Huddersfield - Wakefield service is about as local as you can get, bearing in mind it avoids Leeds, so it's not surprising that passengers in it's catchment area don't want to see it made less convenient.

The fact that we have these competing aspirations for the local regional railway is precisely why it needs investment.

Indeed, my point was not particularly aimed at you as you didn't keep going on about London. I am aware you have a much better local knowledge of this particular route than I will likely ever have.

The questions I would then therefore put to you as someone with local knowledge is:

1. Do you think that these journeys originate with a change at Westgate, or simply because people prefer to use Westgate as it is better cited for Wakefield and is generally a nicer station.
2. Do you think some of these people would therefore not bother going to Kirkgate to catch the train or would be massively inconvenienced.
3. (Devils advocate) If we truly are going to try and get Kirkgate to become a better station with more importance to the city then allowing everyone to travel from westgate is counter productive?

Your last point is probably quite telling and also raises a much wider point of connectivity between two seperate city centre stations. Warrington being another good example. So should we aim for 2tph between the two, but that will surely require some resignalling works at westgate?

FANTASY ALERT - in a world where we electrify things sensibly i'd have a commuter EMU running Leeds - Woodlesford, Castleford, Normanton, Wakefield Kirkgate, Wakefield Westgate, Outwood & Leeds. One per hour in each direction. But alas that is crayon drawing at its finest.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

When I use the service there seem to be a majority of people originating at or continuing to Westgate, rather than Kirkgate. There seem to be plenty who find that station more convenient generally, as well as those who make connections (which of course can be various places served by the ECML, not just London).

Either way, I think the Huddersfield - Wakefield service is about as local as you can get, bearing in mind it avoids Leeds, so it's not surprising that passengers in it's catchment area don't want to see it made less convenient.

The fact that we have these competing aspirations for the local regional railway is precisely why it needs investment.

Basically, it has worked for decades.
And nobody can see what the point is of the change.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

Indeed, my point was not particularly aimed at you as you didn't keep going on about London. I am aware you have a much better local knowledge of this particular route than I will likely ever have.

The questions I would then therefore put to you as someone with local knowledge is:

1. Do you think that these journeys originate with a change at Westgate, or simply because people prefer to use Westgate as it is better cited for Wakefield and is generally a nicer station.
2. Do you think some of these people would therefore not bother going to Kirkgate to catch the train or would be massively inconvenienced.
3. (Devils advocate) If we truly are going to try and get Kirkgate to become a better station with more importance to the city then allowing everyone to travel from westgate is counter productive?

Your last point is probably quite telling and also raises a much wider point of connectivity between two seperate city centre stations. Warrington being another good example. So should we aim for 2tph between the two, but that will surely require some resignalling works at westgate?

FANTASY ALERT - in a world where we electrify things sensibly i'd have a commuter EMU running Leeds - Woodlesford, Castleford, Normanton, Wakefield Kirkgate, Wakefield Westgate, Outwood & Leeds. One per hour in each direction. But alas that is crayon drawing at its finest.

Add Knottingley to that, and you'll have it in May.

 

[tbtc]

Basically, it has worked for decades.
And nobody can see what the point is of the change.

You mean *you* can't see what the point is of the changes?

• Double the frequency from Castleford/ Normanton to Wakefield
• Double the frequency from Knottingley/ Pontefract to Leeds
• New hourly service from Fetherstone (etc) to Leeds
• Increased frequency from Wakefield to Leeds

...that comes at the cost of Mirfield passengers not getting a connection into London for before nine in the morning.

You can argue that the needs of Mirfield people getting to the capital before nine in the morning is more important than the improvements around Wakefield/ Castleford/ Pontefract - maybe there are hundreds of people from Mirfield who need to get into London for before nine in the morning - maybe nobody in Fetherstone would welcome an hourly service to Leeds - you can exaggerate if you wish...

...but don't pretend that *nobody* can see what the point of the change is - there are a lot of winners. Maybe you feel that the Mirfield passengers losing out outweigh the Wakefield/ Castleford/ Pontefract who see improvements (?) but I think it's fairly obvious that (given the limited number of paths crossing the ECML at Westgate (to get from the Kirkgate chord to the sidings by the Prison) you can't have the improved Knottingley/ Pontefract/ Fetherstone service *and* the Huddersfield - Westgate service, so something has to give.

The problem in these threads is that it's much easier to moan about a single issue that affects one person directly (e.g. the demand to get from Normanton to Leeds in time for the 07:10 on a Saturday morning) than appreciate a wider set of benefits that will improve journey opportunities for a larger number of people.

 

[Mathew S]

No, telling the truth is.

All I can say is that you seem to have a very selective view of what is the 'truth'. In contrast, many of us endeavour to take a balanced, objective view of a package of changes in which the improvements far outnumber and outweigh the negatives.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

You mean *you* can't see what the point is of the changes?

• Double the frequency from Castleford/ Normanton to Wakefield
• Double the frequency from Knottingley/ Pontefract to Leeds
• New hourly service from Fetherstone (etc) to Leeds
• Increased frequency from Wakefield to Leeds

...that comes at the cost of Mirfield passengers not getting a connection into London for before nine in the morning.

You can argue that the needs of Mirfield people getting to the capital before nine in the morning is more important than the improvements around Wakefield/ Castleford/ Pontefract - maybe there are hundreds of people from Mirfield who need to get into London for before nine in the morning - maybe nobody in Fetherstone would welcome an hourly service to Leeds - you can exaggerate if you wish...

...but don't pretend that *nobody* can see what the point of the change is - there are a lot of winners. Maybe you feel that the Mirfield passengers losing out outweigh the Wakefield/ Castleford/ Pontefract who see improvements (?) but I think it's fairly obvious that (given the limited number of paths crossing the ECML at Westgate (to get from the Kirkgate chord to the sidings by the Prison) you can't have the improved Knottingley/ Pontefract/ Fetherstone service *and* the Huddersfield - Westgate service, so something has to give.

The problem in these threads is that it's much easier to moan about a single issue that affects one person directly (e.g. the demand to get from Normanton to Leeds in time for the 07:10 on a Saturday morning) than appreciate a wider set of benefits that will improve journey opportunities for a larger number of people.

None of these trains at the moment run at anything close to capacity, so what's the point of doubling the frequency?

The cost is to useful and well used flows, being replaced with duplicates to far less used flows.

As for the Featherstone to Leeds direct service, there has been a two hourly one for months, on a Sunday, and according to Northern Staff I've spoken to, they often outnumber passengers.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

All I can say is that you seem to have a very selective view of what is the 'truth'. In contrast, many of us endeavour to take a balanced, objective view of a package of changes in which the improvements far outnumber and outweigh the negatives.

No, you deliberately miss-quote what I've said.

 

[yorksrob]

Indeed, my point was not particularly aimed at you as you didn't keep going on about London. I am aware you have a much better local knowledge of this particular route than I will likely ever have.

The questions I would then therefore put to you as someone with local knowledge is:

1. Do you think that these journeys originate with a change at Westgate, or simply because people prefer to use Westgate as it is better cited for Wakefield and is generally a nicer station.
2. Do you think some of these people would therefore not bother going to Kirkgate to catch the train or would be massively inconvenienced.
3. (Devils advocate) If we truly are going to try and get Kirkgate to become a better station with more importance to the city then allowing everyone to travel from westgate is counter productive?

Your last point is probably quite telling and also raises a much wider point of connectivity between two seperate city centre stations. Warrington being another good example. So should we aim for 2tph between the two, but that will surely require some resignalling works at westgate?

FANTASY ALERT - in a world where we electrify things sensibly i'd have a commuter EMU running Leeds - Woodlesford, Castleford, Normanton, Wakefield Kirkgate, Wakefield Westgate, Outwood & Leeds. One per hour in each direction. But alas that is crayon drawing at its finest.

With regard to your questions:

1) Definitely a mix of both. Westgate is nearer to the main shopping, leisure and administrative districts, so is a better location for Wakefield. That said, I still see people changing.
2) I suspect that some might be put off - particularly those who don't like walking. The free city bus might help though. I often find myself walking between the two because it's a Sunday etc.
3) Kirkgate seems to be fairly popular. If I were wanting to make it moreso, I would open a ticket office there.
4) I would probably find two trains an hour between the two better, although having better connections with the existing train would help. At the moment there is often a 50+ wait between the Castleford train and the one to Westgate, which makes connections south a pain.

 

[yorksrob]

Basically, it has worked for decades.
And nobody can see what the point is of the change.

I can sympathise, but by a similar token, barely any of our connections at Kirkgate work from the Castleford direction work currently.

 

[Bantamzen]

As for the Featherstone to Leeds direct service, there has been a two hourly one for months, on a Sunday, and according to Northern Staff I've spoken to, they often outnumber passengers.

A two hourly service on a Sunday is hardly a measure of how flows will be when the weekday service starts, especially in the peaks. As for Mirfield, yes it "loses" out on a slightly quicker connection to London, although frankly a half hour trundle to Westgate is hardly fantastic and the only one service that benefits from connecting to a non-stop VTEC is the 06:40. All it would need to replace the Wakefield connection would be a Northern service out of Huddersfield 15 minutes earlier connecting with the same 07:00 at Leeds and your problem has been solved. And of course Northern won't be operating Leeds services from Mirfield for much longer save the Southport services, so TPE will be running them mainly as skip-stops which will probably improve timings and make London connections easier in the long run. So it could be one step back and two forward.

But if it really is the end of the world for Mirfield, maybe GC could be petitioned to re-time or add a service to run through Mirfield earlier to reach London before 09:00? It is worth making the point here that as things stand Mirfield gets just one less London service a day than Bradford does (two if you count Shipley & the Aire Valley), and surprisingly enough the world hasn't fallen in there. Yes it is eventually going to get VTECs every two hours, but a bit of perspective is needed here. Compared to lots of other places in West Yorkshire, Mirfield hasn't done that badly, and it will actually get better once the TPE & Northern Southport services get going. In the meantime places with few or no connections to one of the major commuter destinations get a fully fledged services improving their connectivity no end.

 

[Starmill]

Proof that the rail industry will never win because as a country most passengers fail to see the need beyond their own.

Exactly. It's frustrating that some people are so selfish as to try to derail this thread going on about their occasional journeys from a local station to London when the key reason for the change they are so virulently against is to provide through trains to Leeds from Wakefield district's local stations that have never had them before. For local people, you would have thought that they would be able to appreciate how their own convenience for London journeys was not going to trump better commuter connections such as Pontefract to Leeds. I know which of the two I think has more passengers.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

I can sympathise, but by a similar token, barely any of our connections at Kirkgate work from the Castleford direction work currently.

The current service to Westgate connects well. (~6 min's)
What other connection is there?
Castleford to Sheffield is a direct.
Castlford to Knottingley is a direct service.
Castleford to Leeds is a direct service.

 

[Starmill]

The consultation took place years ago, at the time the franchise agreement was created. That's where all these changes stem from and are set out in detail. Engagement has continued through local authorities, RUGs, PTEs, etc. since and continues to do so.

I'm of the view that there could and should have been a little more direct consultation since then, as that was 5 years or so ago now and the plan has changed very significantly over that time, along with requirements. But in general you are of course correct. People from Pontefract wanted more trains to Leeds I am sure that still stands, and this is the way to provide them.

 

[Starmill]

I used NRE to give the nearest equivalents to journeys starting after 0630 on a weekday. If you think that one is an overtaken service, NRE did not show it as such.

Presumably you forgot to tick the box that says 'fastest services only'.