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Northern timetable plan for May 2018

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northwichcat

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Unless you can find something to interwork them with this won't help. The ex York arrival at Preston is currently xx48, with the departure back towards York at xx37, so as per the current blockade all you'd be doing is terminating at Preston to shunt the unit out of the way and then return for what would be its usual time from Preston had it been through to Blackpool.

Unless you are proposing to retime the service right across the Pennines?!

Looking at the provisional path times York-Preston-Barrow/Windermere-Preston-York would be possible, allowing the Manchester Airport to Wigan to Preston path to be used for a Manchester Airport-Blackpool via Wigan EMU service.
 
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Bwlch y Groes

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The Scarborough-Yorks are either likely to be a shuttle using platform 2, or an extension of the new York-Leeds stoppers which are/were due to start in May, taking most of the intermediate calls on that section away from the York-Blackpools. The former seems the most likely at this stage
 

xotGD

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The Scarborough-Yorks are either likely to be a shuttle using platform 2, or an extension of the new York-Leeds stoppers which are/were due to start in May, taking most of the intermediate calls on that section away from the York-Blackpools. The former seems the most likely at this stage
So passengers from York to Scarborough will soon have the choice of a 68 on a set of Mark 5s or a bendybus. Tough choice.
 

northwichcat

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So passengers from York to Scarborough will soon have the choice of a 68 on a set of Mark 5s or a bendybus. Tough choice.

Question is how many tourists arriving at York will wait half an hour for a TPE train for a short part of their journey?
 

Bwlch y Groes

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So passengers from York to Scarborough will soon have the choice of a 68 on a set of Mark 5s or a bendybus. Tough choice.

Well, ultimately for some people it'll come down to how much Northern peg the Advances at. A lot of people will just be connecting to go up or down the ECML. If the timing's pretty much the same, I think they'll be fine with it. I mean they don't seem to go for the Meridian over the TPE when they're up at Scarborough - I jumped on one last summer and it was virtually empty to York
 

IanXC

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So passengers from York to Scarborough will soon have the choice of a 68 on a set of Mark 5s or a bendybus. Tough choice.

It looks like only a very small window of time between this service group starting (noting its not a 2018 improvement) and Pacers going off lease.
 

158756

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Unless you can find something to interwork them with this won't help. The ex York arrival at Preston is currently xx48, with the departure back towards York at xx37, so as per the current blockade all you'd be doing is terminating at Preston to shunt the unit out of the way and then return for what would be its usual time from Preston had it been through to Blackpool.

Unless you are proposing to retime the service right across the Pennines?!

The service is planned to be retimed right across the Pennines - in the previously planned May timetable it'd have a 5 minutes turnaround if it were cut at Preston. If that's too tight maybe drop the new calls at Mytholmroyd and Sowerby Bridge to make up time. Though if they decide to save units by not running the new Leeds-York stopper the whole thing will need to be retimed again.
 

Deerfold

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Obviously it's still all up to change but I was looking at the second service each hour between Castleford and Wakefield (which tacks onto the end of the Wakefield - Huddersfield service). I was disappointed to note it's only 5 minutes off the Leeds - Sheffield service.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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So passengers from York to Scarborough will soon have the choice of a 68 on a set of Mark 5s or a bendybus. Tough choice.

Liverpool-Scarborough needs 6 sets, so even if both Mk3 sets are working the majority of trains will still be 185s.
 

BMIFlyer

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Liverpool-Scarborough needs 6 sets, so even if both Mk3 sets are working the majority of trains will still be 185s.

I believe the reference was for when the Mark 5 trains actually begin to run, not the temporary Mark 3's. From next year all the TPE Scarborough trains will be brand new LHCS. No 185's.

The current timetable requires 7x 185 sets, the May timetable will only need 6 (2 loco hauled and 4 185) due to faster journeys.
 
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driver_m

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When is the Liverpool - Leeds Northern Connect service proposed to start running? Secondly, is this in addition to the two stopping services that run out of Liverpool via Lea Green?
 

northwichcat

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When is the Liverpool - Leeds Northern Connect service proposed to start running? Secondly, is this in addition to the two stopping services that run out of Liverpool via Lea Green?

A Calder Valley service is expected to be extended to Liverpool at the December 2019 timetable change. It will be an additional service with a call at Huyton but no other calls are mandatory, not that other calls can't be included subject to paths, diagramming etc.
 

driver_m

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I thought northerns blurb said every major population centre will be called at over X number of residents with a connect service. It'll have to call at St Helens as well.
 

northwichcat

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I thought northerns blurb said every major population centre will be called at over X number of residents with a connect service. It'll have to call at St Helens as well.

They gave two exclusions - if another operator serves the population centre or if it's served by a Metro system. Therefore any larger places served by Merseyrail, TPE, Virgin, WMR, XC, ATW, Grand Central, VT, VTEC, EMT, Metrolink or Tyne & Wear Metro don't have to be served by Northern Connect. St Helens will be served by TPE so is excluded.
 

Grannyjoans

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The timetables for May 2018 are already on RTT AND National Rail Enquiries.

It shows 4 trains an hour EACH WAY on the Atherton line. Plus Wigan NW - Alderly Edge/Stalybridge services, Moses Gate/Farmworth/Kearsley getting HOURLY stopping services ALL EVENING instead of just up until 19:00 as it stands now, HOSCAR/NEW LANE/Bescar Lane getting served HOURLY (!), Southport-Airport service replaced by Southport-Leeds with no connection to Piccadilly anymore.

Two extra Kirkby stoppers every evening.

No services at all from Wallgate to Bolton or Piccadilly. All day, every day.

Intensive timetable in the evening. This means even between 1900 & 2100hrs there will be 4 trains per hour EACH WAY via Atherton and Daisy Hill. That means 8 trains stopping at Daisy Hill between 2000 & 2100, up from the current two, an increase of 4X !!! Is this really necessary ? Over the top ?

Is this still going ahead in May despite all the delays ?? (Rolling stock cascades, New trains, Electrification delays particularly those pertaining to the Chorley Line?)
 

Bovverboy

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RTT is currently showing information up to 1/8/2018, I.e. up to c.178 days hence, which is approximately twice as far ahead as normal. Not all information appears to be loaded yet, though.
 

Mathew S

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The timetables for May 2018 are already on RTT AND National Rail Enquiries.

It shows 4 trains an hour EACH WAY on the Atherton line. Plus Wigan NW - Alderly Edge/Stalybridge services, Moses Gate/Farmworth/Kearsley getting HOURLY stopping services ALL EVENING instead of just up until 19:00 as it stands now, HOSCAR/NEW LANE/Bescar Lane getting served HOURLY (!), Southport-Airport service replaced by Southport-Leeds with no connection to Piccadilly anymore.

Two extra Kirkby stoppers every evening.

No services at all from Wallgate to Bolton or Piccadilly. All day, every day.

Intensive timetable in the evening. This means even between 1900 & 2100hrs there will be 4 trains per hour EACH WAY via Atherton and Daisy Hill. That means 8 trains stopping at Daisy Hill between 2000 & 2100, up from the current two, an increase of 4X !!! Is this really necessary ? Over the top ?

Is this still going ahead in May despite all the delays ?? (Rolling stock cascades, New trains, Electrification delays particularly those pertaining to the Chorley Line?)
As you'll have seen earlier in this thread, nobody yet knows quote what the May timetable will look like. Some of the changes will almost certainly still happen, some won't, and unfortunately we'll have to wait until the planning teams at Northern, TPE, and others manage to put together a timetable that they can actually run. Normally, this would be published a minimum of 12 weeks in advance, but it's possible (maybe even likely) that because of the late decision to postpone the Manchester-Preston electrification until December we may not see a final timetable until March or even later.
The background to this is that TPE services are going to change, and therefore Northern will be forced to go through with some of the planned changes despite the engineering holdups. However, they simply don't have enough diesel powered trains to run the original version of the May timetable now that they are no longer going to be able to run electric trains on the Manchester-Preston route.

Whether Daisy Hill really needs all of those evening stops is something I can't answer, however on occasions when I travel back from Manchester at around the times you've mentioned, I do see many people alight at that station, often 15-20 from one train. It's also worth remembering that these are trains which are also providing inceased capacity from Southport/Wigan and further afield into Manchester, and that stopping at Daisy Hill doesn't really cost anything.

As planned, there is also an earlier Kirkby-Manchester in the mornings, which is a welcome addition for anyone commuting from that line into the city - like me :).

Also as planned, Southport retains a peak time link to the airport, with the off-peaks moved to Victoria. That's a change from the original plan and intended to placate passengers from Southport who say they feel that they need an all-day, direct link to Picadilly and the airport.

At the end of the day, though, although I'd guess that what you've written is what will happen eventually (likely December of this year), we just won't know what will happen in May until we get a final version of the timetable.
 

Mathew S

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At the moment NRE enquiries screen stops at April 2018. Where do RTT get their raw data from?
National Rail's open data systems, amongst other places. The same data is available to TOCs and journey planners, which is why you can see the planned changes to TPE and Northern services (eg. Manchester-Scotland via Bolton) in the VTWC website journey planner... something which I'm sure will cause problems since you can't run electric trains on unelectrified railway :)
 

johntea

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I notice the new additional 'express' trains to Harrogate still look to call at all stations excluding Weeton and Pannal - which I don’t think will really knock off that much journey time?

The problem in my experience is getting bottle necked at the West Yorkshire stations with people getting off/on!

Hornbeam Park also seems quite a generous stop, is there really that much demand there?!
 

northwichcat

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I notice the new additional 'express' trains to Harrogate still look to call at all stations excluding Weeton and Pannal - which I don’t think will really knock off that much journey time?

The problem in my experience is getting bottle necked at the West Yorkshire stations with people getting off/on!

Hornbeam Park also seems quite a generous stop, is there really that much demand there?!

The new Harrogate-Leeds services will call at Horsforth and Hornbeam Park only, except at peak times when they'll make additional calls. The Harrogate-Leeds services were originally only to be all-stops with the York/Knaresborough services running semi-fast south of Harrogate but some local politicians made a massive fuss about that.
 

Deerfold

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I notice the new additional 'express' trains to Harrogate still look to call at all stations excluding Weeton and Pannal - which I don’t think will really knock off that much journey time?

The problem in my experience is getting bottle necked at the West Yorkshire stations with people getting off/on!

Hornbeam Park also seems quite a generous stop, is there really that much demand there?!

Not sure where you're looking, but for most of them I get this:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y21463/2018/05/23/advanced
 

Bovverboy

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There's likely to be a couple of Ellesmere Port services plugging the gaps in those timings.
In a consultation document issued several months ago the ex-Ellesmere Port arrivals in Leeds were given as 0942 and 2042.
 
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