Northern timetable plan for May 2018

[notlob.divad]

To add my weight behind the continued existance of a fast train between Wigan and Manchester, it also generates the fastest route into Manchester and Manchester Airport from St. Helens via public transport. Whilst someone with access to a car may find the direct train from St. Helens Junction more convenient, (despite the limited parking), however, the train from central with a change at Wigan into the current service is benefitial for most and avoids having to catch a 2nd bus from the centre out to Junction.

That said, I see the TPE are considering/consulting on stopping at Lea Green instead of St. Helens Junction. This I would be highly in favour if, and I have previously commented on how I think Lea Green should be re-named to St.Helens South. Public transport to Lea Green is far superior and there would be an opourtunity to expand the car park (vertically) to ease the parking issues at Junction. If this is done, I could see the convenience and timing balance switch back towards the Liverpool service.

 

[WatcherZero]

Its farmland with next to no lineside buildings, while the cost probably wouldn't be justifiable in these constrained times there isn't really a land issue.

 

[mwmbwls]

From the Blackpool - Manchester Electrification thread, mostly 100mph, except through Bolton and Chorley stations. This will tend to reduce line capacity, because there will be an increased differential in average speeds between the fast trains and the stoppers. Therefore a bigger gap will be needed behind the stopper in order that the following fast service does not catch it up. The new 100mph signalling is still 3-aspect, which requires longer block sections than 4-aspect.

An investment decision that we night come to regret in due course in the event of a "Sparks effect"? How simple would it be to replace the signal heads to show 4 aspects and would such a change be required all along the route or only on the inner sections?

 

[northwichcat]

Former TPE North West routes saw a sparks effect when new trains were introduced in the 00s, as did both North and South TPE routes.

 

[Greybeard33]

An investment decision that we night come to regret in due course in the event of a "Sparks effect"? How simple would it be to replace the signal heads to show 4 aspects and would such a change be required all along the route or only on the inner sections?

My memory of the other thread was faulty. What was stated there was that the signalling north of Bolton is remaining 3 aspect. With only 6tph to Lostock and 4tph through Chorley, there is no need to reduce the length of the block sections.

 

[dazalton]

I know the timings have been provided for Chester / Greenbank to Manchester. Does anyone have any breakdown of the times in the opposite direction?

 

[Deerfold]

I've seen some lines are seeing substantially later trains - anyone know if there's anything later to Skipton planned?

 

[AmateurRambler]

I've seen some lines are seeing substantially later trains - anyone know if there's anything later to Skipton planned?

Consultation shows last train to Skipton leaves Leeds at 2326. There's a 2333 to Ilkley.

 

[Deerfold]

Consultation shows last train to Skipton leaves Leeds at 2326. There's a 2333 to Ilkley.

Thanks.

8 minutes is better than nothing, I suppose.

 

[thealexweb]

I have seen posts from various people stating Bolton will have Blackpool North to Macclesfield and Wigan North Western to Alderley Edge services in the future. Is there an official source for these claims? Thanks again.

 

[northwichcat]

I have seen posts from various people stating Bolton will have Blackpool North to Macclesfield and Wigan North Western to Alderley Edge services in the future. Is there an official source for these claims? Thanks again.

Yes it's part of the official consultation. The sections affecting Greater Manchester are mentioned in a report circulated at their last meeting: https://www.greatermanchester-ca.go...70/transport_for_greater_manchester_committee

 

[northwichcat]

I know the timings have been provided for Chester / Greenbank to Manchester. Does anyone have any breakdown of the times in the opposite direction?

Both have been provided in this thread.

Away from Manchester: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=3005359&postcount=9

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

If only it was that simple! From the WCML through the divergence at Golborne Jn is indeed just 20 mph but south of there the route splits at Lowton Jn, again at 20 mph, to two sharply curved routes towards Parkside Jn and Newton Jn. Both these curves are also limited to 20 mph. All these are close together so there would be little to be gained by any speed increases through the junctions. And also bear in mind that Golborne Jn is a divergence from a super-elevated curve, curving the opposite way to the divergence, with a 90 mph limit; to increase the diverging speed at Golborne Jn would require relocating the junction a little to the north so as to make the diverging route flat enough for a higher speed. Such a relocation would need additional land purchase which is unlikely to be worth the expense given the minimal, if any, gains to be made. Another example of our Victorian inheritance tending to hold us back: in the future genuinely fast trains making such a journey will be using HS2, if all goes to plan!

It is (now) actually 25mph through Golborne Jn (and onto the WCML slow lines).
But the old 20mph applies through Lowton Jn and the Chat Moss junctions.
TPE trains just seem to take the whole lot at 20mph (if not halted by traffic on the main lines, which is quite common).
There is also approach control to slow things up.

The real capacity crunch is congestion on the Bolton-Euxton route, and higher speeds are not going to make much difference with all the stoppers and semi-fasts.
There don't appear to be any signalling improvements at Euxton Jn either.
Standing on the Up Slow and Down Bolton at Euxton is very common.
The Golborne route is a good escape valve to this.

 

[northwichcat]

I am also deeply concerned about the reliability of a Crewe - Manchester Airport - Liverpool service that will serve every station (possibly except Goostrey and Chelford).

It sounds like it'll have a long stop at the Airport, at least in one direction.

 

[thealexweb]

Yes it's part of the official consultation. The sections affecting Greater Manchester are mentioned in a report circulated at their last meeting: https://www.greatermanchester-ca.go...70/transport_for_greater_manchester_committee

That's great. Thank you.

 

[50032]

It sounds like it'll have a long stop at the Airport, at least in one direction.

According to the consultation: 14 minutes on the up, 5 minutes on the down.

It's unclear but one could assume the via Airport arrival at Crewe will return via Stockport to Picc, and the via Stockport arrival at Crewe will return via Airport to Liverpool.

 

[Starmill]

14 minutes!? So it will take over 45 minutes to get from Mauldeth Road to Wilmslow? Wow. It will probably be quicker to change.

 

[CAF397]

It is (now) actually 25mph through Golborne Jn (and onto the WCML slow lines).
But the old 20mph applies through Lowton Jn and the Chat Moss junctions.
TPE trains just seem to take the whole lot at 20mph (if not halted by traffic on the main lines, which is quite common).

On the Up all junctions are 20mph - Golborne, Lowton and Parkside.

On the Down Parkside, Lowton and half of Golborne are 20mph. The Main to main crossover at Golborne is 25mph, but the back end of the train is still within the 20mph restriction of Golborne. Once clear of the 20, the rear of the train is on the Up Main, just a gentle acceleration from 20 to 25 maybe unnoticeable until the rear of the train is on the Down Main where full acceleration can take place. Some drivers may wish to continue rolling at 20. 5 mph for an extra 30-40 metres isn't going to hurt timings.

 

[northwichcat]

14 minutes!? So it will take over 45 minutes to get from Mauldeth Road to Wilmslow? Wow. It will probably be quicker to change.

I don't know.

This current service has a 19 minute gap: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y61435/2017/07/12/advanced

But the following station from Mauldeth Road gets in 4 minutes after that service has departed:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y61354/2017/07/12/advanced

 

[WatcherZero]

Update:

In response to meetings with TfGM since June 16th the following commitments have been made by Northern and TPE to address concerns in the May 2018 consultation timetable, TfGM final timetable consultation response was submitted July 7th and Northern are due to publish further amended proposals late July.

* Calder Valley – Extra peak calls at Littleborough, Smithy Bridge, Castleton and Mills Hill are under review by Northern.
* North Transpennine – Meeting undertaken with Rail User Group, Transpennine Express and Northern to examine service provision. TPE have agreed to further examine additional calls at Stalybridge to peak services.
* Marple/Hyde Loop – Northern have given assurance that appropriate capacity will be provided on the Bredbury line. Sunday services on the Hyde Loop will not be provided in May 2018 but we have agreed to look at this further with Northern and Rail North to understand if a business case for services is possible.
* Hazel Grove/Buxton – Northern have agreed to reinstate peak calls at Davenport and Woodsmoor, therefore ensuring TSR compliance. Northern are also investigating Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme calls to comply with Train Service Requirements.
* Manchester Airport – Northern looking at providing additional peak calls at local stations along the route.
* Chat Moss – Joint working with Salford City Council Rail Consultant and Northern to further investigate Eccles service intervals and lack of Patricroft peak calls.
* Manchester – Wigan via Atherton – Discussions undertaken with Salford City Council Rail Consultant and Northern to look into solutions to the long connection times in the evening.
* Bolton including Blackburn corridor – Northern are looking at innovative ways to increase capacity with potential solutions including re-routing peak services via Wigan NW and running the Barrow/Windermere services down the Bolton corridor with calls at key stations. Options are likely to be presented in late July.

So sounds like Northern are considering running Manchester Airport-Barrow/Windermere through Bolton and Wigan via Westhoughton and sending displaced peak Manchester-Preston (Or Blackpool) via Bolton services via Chat Moss (with possible Eccles and Patricroft calls).

This would help with the Wigan-Bolton service reduction though would increase journey times for Cumbria/Wigan to the Airport and a new Chat Moss slow would probably be quite welcome in Salford with new direct connections Wigan-Eccles/Patricroft though they wouldn't be able to meet their 30 min Wigan-Manchester franchise target if they did.

 

[PR1Berske]

Some very interesting possibilities there, Watcher.

 

[northwichcat]

Northern are also investigating Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme calls to comply with Train Service Requirements.

The post earlier in the thread seems to suggest the requirement for 4tph was already met, unless the original plan was for 3tph in the other direction?

Basic Off-Peak departure times from Manchester Piccadilly:
...
XX:01 Crewe, calling at Levenshulme, Heaton Chapel, Stockport, Cheadle Hulme, Handforth, Wilmslow, Alderley Edge, Chelford, Goostery, Holmes Chapel, Sandbach and Crewe
...
XX:24 Hazel Grove, calling at Levenshulme, Heaton Chapel, Stockport, Davenport, Woodsmoor and Hazel Grove
...
XX:37 Alderley Edge, Levenshulme, Heaton Chapel, Stockport, Cheadle Hulme, Handforth, Wilmslow and Alderley Edge. This service starts at Wigan NW
...
XX:46 Buxton, calling at Levenshulme, Heaton Chapel, Stockport, Davenport, Woodsmoor, Hazel Grove, New Mills Newtown, Furness Vale, Whaley Bridge, Chapel-en-le-Firth, Dove Holes (2 hourly) and Buxton

* Bolton including Blackburn corridor – Northern are looking at innovative ways to increase capacity with potential solutions including re-routing peak services via Wigan NW and running the Barrow/Windermere services down the Bolton corridor with calls at key stations. Options are likely to be presented in late July.

So does that mean something like a 2/3 car service between Manchester and Blackburn will run via Chat Moss and Wigan at peak times and a 4/5 car service between Manchester and Barrow will run via Bolton? If so it sounds like robbing Peter to pay Paul.

 

[northwichcat]

Found the document WatcherZero must have been referring to: https://www.greatermanchester-ca.go.../item_09_may_2018_rail_timetable_consultation

It sounds a bit strange TfGM want peak time Manchester Airport to Cumbria services routed via Bolton but their response to Northern indicated they were unhappy with the timings via Wigan being much slower than the current TPE services. TfGM also seem to be suggesting Northern may use 158s on Manchester Airport to Cumbria via Wigan services when they launch.

Also interesting to note 1tph between Manchester and Chinley has been included but not all services will continue to Sheffield.

 

[Thomas6187]

The post earlier in the thread seems to suggest the requirement for 4tph was already met, unless the original plan was for 3tph in the other direction?

It's would appear that only 3tph call at Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme towards Manchester. These are the service from Macclesfield, New Mills and Hazel Grove

 

[WatcherZero]

Yeah the proposed timetable has Northern diesels replacing TPE 350's losing 14/16 minutes between Oxford Road and Lancaster and 9 minutes between Wigan and Oxford Road possibly due to lower acceleration, the paths and not being able to do 110mph on the WCML. While TPE have shaved southbound 5 minutes off preston-manchester via bolton compared to Wigan and 8 minutes off lancaster-manchester via Bolton compared to previous times while maintaining the same northbound times.

The reason TfGM state they are pushing the bolton-Wigan reroutings is because of the vast reduction of interchange opportunties between Vic and Pic at Salford Crescent in the new timetable. They are pushing Hindley station to take over that interrchange role for the Wigan/Bolton corridor.

They are also mad Northern originally proposed a lot of Bolton line services becoming fasts in the peak reducing calls at many stations including seeing Lostock reduced from 5tph to 2tph in peak.

 

[driver_m]

That potential rerouting of a Manchester Wigan service via the Chat Moss wouldn't harm the prospects of reopening a station at Golborne.

 

[Greybeard33]

Found the document WatcherZero must have been referring to: https://www.greatermanchester-ca.go.../item_09_may_2018_rail_timetable_consultation

It sounds a bit strange TfGM want peak time Manchester Airport to Cumbria services routed via Bolton but their response to Northern indicated they were unhappy with the timings via Wigan being much slower than the current TPE services. TfGM also seem to be suggesting Northern may use 158s on Manchester Airport to Cumbria via Wigan services when they launch.

Thanks for posting the link. I see the TfGM letter says that Northern will use Class 156/158/769 on the Airport - Cumbria services. Presumably the 769s will be on the Windermere diagrams.

From its letters to both Northern and TPE, TfGM is concerned that TPE's 5-car 397s will provide inadequate future capacity between Manchester and Preston/Lancaster, particularly on the weekend peak services currently operated by 8-car 350s. With the Northern Cumbria services via Wigan being much slower than the TPE services via Bolton, TfGM fears that the majority of Preston/Lancaster passengers will try to pile on to the latter. Northern's proposed journey time between Manchester and Windermere apparently fails to meet the franchise agreement requirement.

 

[PR1Berske]

That potential rerouting of a Manchester Wigan service via the Chat Moss wouldn't harm the prospects of reopening a station at Golborne.

It would be bottom of a very, very long queue of potential reopenings!

 

[Starmill]

I don't know.

This current service has a 19 minute gap: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y61435/2017/07/12/advanced

But the following station from Mauldeth Road gets in 4 minutes after that service has departed:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y61354/2017/07/12/advanced

It isn't usually 19 minutes at Manchester Airport, it's 4. The 1852 is the only one that has such a long wait.

 

[northwichcat]

I was meaning even on the service which has a 19 minute wait there isn't a quicker option by changing, as you previously suggested it may be quicker to change if there's a 14 minute wait.