Northern Tender for up to 450 units

[LNW-GW Joint]

Lots 1 and 2 of Phase 1, supposedly for future electric TRU services, amount to 121 units.
Assuming the TPE procurement of trains for longer distances is separate, how do Northern plan to deploy 121 new trains (3/4-car)?
Does it include BEMUs for places like Wigan, Bradford, York and Hull, and maybe Calder Valley services, which will work partially via TRU?
Lot 3 (6 units) looks like the replacement of the class 769 bi-modes.

 

[skyhigh]

Assuming the TPE procurement of trains for longer distances is separate, how do Northern plan to deploy 121 new trains (3/4-car)?

By my count, Northern have roughly 204 15x (mainly 2 car, with a handful of 3 car). 121 3 and 4 car units seem to pretty much be a full 15x fleet replacement, which is what we've been told the plan is.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Assuming the TPE procurement of trains for longer distances is separate, how do Northern plan to deploy 121 new trains (3/4-car)?

Via some cascading (e.g. 2-car 195s onto the branch lines), I understand the intention is for it to be a full fleet replacement other than Classes 195 and 331. Basically a Greater Anglia like transformation.

 

[Greybeard33]

Lot 3 (6 units) looks like the replacement of the class 769 bi-modes.

Lot 3 is 6 x 4-car battery-only (single mode) units. I imagine that the intention is that they would use the fast charge technology that GWR is testing on the Greenford branch, and that they would be used on routes that will remain completely devoid of OLE, except maybe at one terminus (so little benefit from lugging a transformer and pantograph around).

The 8 x 4-car 769 diesel/OLE bi-modes will more likely be replaced by some of the Lot 2 multi-modes.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

By my count, Northern have roughly 204 15x (mainly 2 car, with a handful of 3 car). 121 3 and 4 car units seem to pretty much be a full 15x fleet replacement, which is what we've been told the plan is.

I remember seeing that Northern could take back the Huddersfield line stoppers from TPE post-TRU, that'd be EMUs.

To write things down a bit simpler: (all estimated values from the earlier document)
Phase 1 - 55*3 cars, 72*4 cars (453 carriages)
Lot 1 - EMU - 11*3 cars (33 carriages)
Lot 2 - MMU - 44*3 cars, 66*4 cars (396 carriages)
Lot 3 - BEMU - 6*4 cars (24 carriages)

Phase 2 - 64*3 cars, 62*4 cars (440 carriages)
Lot 1 - EMU - 34*3 cars, 16*4 cars (166 carriages)
Lot 2 - MMU - 30*3 cars, 20*4 cars (170 carriages)
Lot 3 - BEMU - 26*4 cars (104 carriages)

I count 186 Sprinters with Northern (14 3 car, 386 carriages total)

75 150s (6 3 car, 156 carriages)
7 155s (14 carriages)
51 156s (102 carriages)
53 158s (8 3 car, 144 carriages)

There's also 8 769s (32 carriages) and 16 170s (48 carriages) which pushes the number of units to 210 (466 carriages).

Via some cascading (e.g. 2-car 195s onto the branch lines), I understand the intention is for it to be a full fleet replacement other than Classes 195 and 331. Basically a Greater Anglia like transformation.

If we add the 34 323s (17 ex-WMT, 102 carriages) and the 16 333s (64 carriages), we get .
In total that's 172 2 cars, 64 3 cars, 24 4 cars, 260 units (599 carriages)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Lot 3 is 6 x 4-car battery-only (single mode) units. I imagine that the intention is that they would use the fast charge technology that GWR is testing on the Greenford branch, and that they would be used on routes that will remain completely devoid of OLE, except maybe at one terminus (so little benefit from lugging a transformer and pantograph around).

I'm intrigued where that would be useful - the quiet unwired branch lines will just get 2-car 195s. Perhaps an experiment?

'Arrigut maybe if the turnarounds are tight? Morecambe I reckon spends enough time under the wires that OHLE and battery would work, but really that only needs 2-car, unless they're thinking ahead to Eden Project? But then the stations on that are all 3-car platforms and not necessarily easy to extend.

I'm intrigued - they're clearly for a specific trial but where?

 

[Meerkat]

I'm intrigued where that would be useful - the quiet unwired branch lines will just get 2-car 195s. Perhaps an experiment?

'Arrigut maybe if the turnarounds are tight? Morecambe I reckon spends enough time under the wires that OHLE and battery would work, but really that only needs 2-car, unless they're thinking ahead to Eden Project? But then the stations on that are all 3-car platforms and not necessarily easy to extend.

I'm intrigued - they're clearly for a specific trial but where?

Whitby?

 

[Greybeard33]

I'm intrigued where that would be useful - the quiet unwired branch lines will just get 2-car 195s. Perhaps an experiment?

'Arrigut maybe if the turnarounds are tight? Morecambe I reckon spends enough time under the wires that OHLE and battery would work, but really that only needs 2-car, unless they're thinking ahead to Eden Project? But then the stations on that are all 3-car platforms and not necessarily easy to extend.

I'm intrigued - they're clearly for a specific trial but where?

How about Hull - Bridlington - Scarborough and Hull - Doncaster - Sheffield? There might be enough demand to justify a 4-car by the time these are in traffic.
Edit: Or the Hope Valley stopper and New Mills Central via Bredbury?

 

[py_megapixel]

Edit: Or the Hope Valley stopper and New Mills Central via Bredbury?

The Hope Valley stoppers can be busy but a lot of that is because people use them as a cheaper (and more reliable) alternative to TPE and EMR between Manchester and Sheffield. I'd suggest the investment would be better directed at lengthening the fast services on that route so that there is enough capacity to offer cheap tickets on those, which would then free up capacity on the stoppers indirectly. I'm not saying we shouldn't be putting additional stock on the stoppers if it's justified for other reasons though.

 

[Killingworth]

The Hope Valley stoppers can be busy but a lot of that is because people use them as a cheaper (and more reliable) alternative to TPE and EMR between Manchester and Sheffield. I'd suggest the investment would be better directed at lengthening the fast services on that route so that there is enough capacity to offer cheap tickets on those, which would then free up capacity on the stoppers indirectly. I'm not saying we shouldn't be putting additional stock on the stoppers if it's justified for other reasons though.

There are other threads that touch on the specific aspect of Northern's role on this route that I've highlighted. The point made is very valid.

Leisure users in particular are happy to accept a slower time for a lower fare, especially when the service is likely to be more reliable. TPE and EMR require more rolling stock to strengthen their trains because their services extend beyond the core route. Adding carriages to Northern trains still adds expense but is more cost effective to increase capacity. It might be best to lengthen all Northern trains to 4 car before adding more to the fasts.

Which brings this diversion back to topic. Hope Valley stoppers and the New Mills services are normally 3 car 195 or 4 car 15x combinations. Occasionally it may be a 5 or 6 car 195 on Hope Valley, unfortunately not coinciding with lovely sunny days as well as it might. That's a problem on a route with no barrier controls before or after Piccadilly. Revenue inspection is impossible when passengers are rammed in like sardines. When longer trains run regular users know that if they board the first unit they're very unlikely to be checked.

Any new stock must have walk through provision to ease both load spreading and revenue control.

 

[Trainbike46]

Any new stock must have walk through provision to ease both load spreading and revenue control.

Or long enough to not/rarely require double units

 

[Halifaxlad]

Does anybody know if ETCS has been specified for these new trains or not ?

 

[Harvey B]

Does anybody know if ETCS has been specified for these new trains or not ?

What's ETCS?

 

[Class172]

What's ETCS?

European Train Control System, it’s a modern signalling system.

European Train Control System - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[bluelagoon8951]

Does anybody know if ETCS has been specified for these new trains or not ?

iirc, the answer is yes. can't guarantee it but that's what i remember hearing

 

[InkyScrolls]

Does anybody know if ETCS has been specified for these new trains or not ?

331s and 195s have provision so I would be very surprised if the new units did not.

 

[Snow1964]

Does anybody know if ETCS has been specified for these new trains or not ?

Almost certainly has provision for it, but unlikely to be initially equipped.

Will have TPWS (train protection and warning system), almost certainly the newer more functionality TPWS+ version.

However it does raise interesting spin off question of how much longer brand new trains will be equipped for the old legacy basic AWS (automatic warning system). The one with big magnets with ramps on the track, rather than grid loops

 

[skyhigh]

However it does raise interesting spin off question of how much longer brand new trains will be equipped for the old legacy basic AWS (automatic warning system). The one with big magnets with ramps on the track, rather than grid loops

Given that AWS is completely different to TPWS and used extensively across the whole country (and not really "legacy" as it's still being installed), the answer is at least decades before new trains aren't fitted.

 

[InkyScrolls]

However it does raise interesting spin off question of how much longer brand new trains will be equipped for the old legacy basic AWS (automatic warning system). The one with big magnets with ramps on the track, rather than grid loops

The two are not comparable and AWS is by no means 'legacy'. There are no plans to replace AWS as it does exactly what it's designed to do, and to do so would cost tens of billions so I would imagine, to answer your question, many decades.

 

[Geeves]

In regards to the displacement of195s in the future while the final destination isn't allowed to be said there's an obvious an easy "other area of Northern" and that's Newcastle/Heaton Depot. The 195s will do very nicely on the Carlisle run. Heaton can easily run it's diagrams as stand alone affairs.

 

[danbarjon]

In regards to the displacement of195s in the future while the final destination isn't allowed to be said there's an obvious an easy "other area of Northern" and that's Newcastle/Heaton Depot. The 195s will do very nicely on the Carlisle run. Heaton can easily run it's diagrams as stand alone affairs.

I and many others would be so happy if that were true as the 156s have had their day in my opinion...

 

[Snex]

I'm intrigued where that would be useful - the quiet unwired branch lines will just get 2-car 195s. Perhaps an experiment?

'Arrigut maybe if the turnarounds are tight? Morecambe I reckon spends enough time under the wires that OHLE and battery would work, but really that only needs 2-car, unless they're thinking ahead to Eden Project? But then the stations on that are all 3-car platforms and not necessarily easy to extend.

I'm intrigued - they're clearly for a specific trial but where?

I know you posted this awhile back but maybe it could be the North East? Without going into working it out but 32 trains wouldn't be far from running:
Newcastle - Carlisle
Newcastle - Hexham
Newcastle - Morpeth / Chathill
Newcastle - Ashington
Newcastle - Middlesbrough
Darlington - Saltburn

Most routes have serious overcrowding issues with 2 car trains so the capacity boost would be pleasent, they're quite often doubled up as much as they can and none of the network is ever going to be electrified anytime soon.

The 6 trains would conveniently fit for a trial:
Newcastle - Ashington
Newcastle - Morpeth
Newcastle - Hexham

I believe they can do 90 miles or so nowadays so with quick chargers in the right places it should be doable and Newcastle, Carlisle and Darlington already have wires around anyway.

I don't believe there's enough Class 195's to do all the North East network plus the likes of Morecambe, Sheffield to Hull / Scarborough, Leeds to Carlisle, the Cumbrian Coast railway etc.

 

[Energy]

Lot 3 is 6 x 4-car battery-only (single mode) units. I imagine that the intention is that they would use the fast charge technology that GWR is testing on the Greenford branch, and that they would be used on routes that will remain completely devoid of OLE, except maybe at one terminus (so little benefit from lugging a transformer and pantograph around).

Windermere seems more likely. My understanding is the battery units are still 25kv OHLE. Northern specifically mentions the ability to convert them to EMUs by just removing the batteries.

 

[jonesy3001]

Seems to have gone quiet on the new units front, take it the plans have been put back into filing until the next general election.

 

[JonathanH]

Seems to have gone quiet on the new units front, take it the plans have been put back into filing until the next general election.

Give them a chance. The government have only been in power for a short time and need to consider the whole area of public finance before signing off major deals.

 

[skyhigh]

Seems to have gone quiet on the new units front, take it the plans have been put back into filing until the next general election.
Getting fed up of this hinting now, are northern getting new units or not?
And who is the supplier, CAF, Hitachi or Alstom?

It's still progressing, just (as is hopefully obvious) it takes time to work through plans of this scale.

The supplier hasn't been announced and nobody is going to risk their job by leaking details they shouldn't.

You're just going to have to be patient and wait for the announcement when it comes.

 

[jonesy3001]

It's still progressing, just (as is hopefully obvious) it takes time to work through plans of this scale.

The supplier hasn't been announced and nobody is going to risk their job by leaking details they shouldn't.

You're just going to have to be patient and wait for the announcement when it comes.

Will do, edited my post.
Took me ages to find this thread, so had to wake it up.

 

[Dspatula]

Thought I'd do a very rough run through the numbers based on an optimistic scenario in which Northern get a version of the Sadler Flirt for their self propelled units.
TLDR; Phase 1 enough to replace 150,155,156,769 and 3 car 158s
Phase 2 enough to replace 2cars 158 and 170s
Overall units reduced by 33, carriages increased 198 and overall usable length increased by 1870m.
Edit; Number are a bit off as I assumed 8m for the power pack when they are 6.69m.

Current
Class units Cars length
150 3car x6 =18 360m[60m]
150 2car x69 =138 2760m[40m]
155 2car x7 =14 322m[46m]
156 2car x66 =132 3036m[46m]
158 3car x8 =24 552m[69m]
158 2car x45 =90 2070m[46m]
769 4car x8 =32 640m[80m]
170 3car x16 =48 1104m[69m]
195 2car x25 =50 1150m[46m]
195 3car x33 =99 2277m[69m]
Total =283 =645 =14271m

150 3120m
15x 9100m


Phase 1
Class units Cars length
MMU
Flirt 3car x44 =132 2860m[65m] {2508m minus power pack}
Flirt 4car x66 =264 5280m[80m] {4752m minus power pack}
BMU
Flirt 4car x6 =24 480m[80m] { 432m minus power pack}
Total x116 =420 8620m {7692m minus power pack}

7692m Flirt usable length
7670m replacing 150,155,156,769 and 158 3car.

Class units Cars length
158 2car x45 =90 2070m[46m]
170 3car x16 =48 1104m[69m]
Total = 61 =138 =3174m

Phase 2
Class units Cars length
MMU
Flirt 3car x30 = 90 1950m[65m] {1710m minus power pack}
Flirt 4car x20 = 80 1600m[80m] {1440m minus power pack}
Total x50 =170 3550m {3150m minus power pack}

3150m Flirt usable length
3174m replacing 170 and 158 2car.

BMU
Flirt 4car x26 =104 2080m[80m] {1872m minus power pack}
Total P2 x76 =274 5630m {5022m minus power pack}


Total cars= 694 length= 14250m {12714m minus power pack}

After Phase 2
Class units Cars length
195 2car x25 =50 1150m[46m]
195 3car x33 =99 2277m[69m]
Flirt 3car x74 =222 4810m[60m]
Flirt 4car x86 =344 6880m[80m]
Flirt 4car x32 =128 2560m[80m]
Total =250 =843 =17677m* actual 16141m
Total -33 +198 +3406* +1870m


Edit 2;
Added a mock-up of a Northern Regional version and some PTE commuter variants. Credit to WestRail642fan on Wikipedia for the original artwork.

 

[stan claire]

Lot 3 is 6 x 4-car battery-only (single mode) units. I imagine that the intention is that they would use the fast charge technology that GWR is testing on the Greenford branch, and that they would be used on routes that will remain completely devoid of OLE, except maybe at one terminus (so little benefit from lugging a transformer and pantograph around).

Maybe at Windermere?? Depending on charging capacity and turnaround times they could probably be able to get a few Oxenholme runs and back on a single charge as well as 4 cars will be slightly less packed than 3 car units during the summer (unless they magically find a way to send 8 cars down there)

On a delusional side, they could even run an hourly Windermere - Manchester (Vic would probably be a better choice with Chaosfield on its last legs and stations between Bolton and Preston have not had a regular direct Victoria service since 2021) service should they not share diagrams with Barrow services and give better frequency to other stations such as 4tph to Chorley, potentially 3tph to Buckshaw Parkway and Horwich Parkway, and personally a direct Windermere service would be way more useful to me than only trains to Blackpool

the quiet unwired branch lines will just get 2-car 195s.

195s would be good for Headbolt Lane services if Merseyrail haven't taken over that part of the line by then, along with the 195s having ASDO it'll mean the guards won't have to kick people off the back unit between Wigan and HBL because the platforms are too short at Upholland and Rainford however I don't know how it'd work for opening the doors of a 4 car unit if the platform can only fit 2

 

[Snow1964]

DfT has issued a new pipeline of pending procurement spreadsheet, the price now looks very precise, and has a start date in months time. I think quantities have been changed too.

Supply of new rolling stock and maintenance supply services.
Replacement of Northern Trains Limited’s (NTL’s) oldest rolling stock of 15X vehicles over the coming years with options to replace northerns remaining fleet in a framework agreement over 8 years.
The procurement establishes a framework agreement with an 8 year term and this procurement relates to the Phase One requirements which are:
Lot 1: - EMU – required for passenger service 2029-30 with an estimated requirement of 12 x 3-vehicle units.
Lot 2: - MMU – required for passenger service 2030-31 with an estimated requirement of 26 x 3-vehicle units and 84 x 4-vehicle units.
Lot 3: - BEMU – required for passenger service 2032 with an estimated initial requirement of 8 x 4-vehicle units.
Estimated Procurement Start Date : 29/11/2024
Estimated Contract Length : 180 months
Estimated Contract Value : £6,577,832,000
Planned Procurement Sourcing Route (level of competition) : Negotiated procedure/Competitive tender
Spend Category : 34620000 Rolling Stock, Financier: Main CPV is: 34600000 Additional CPVs listed in the Contract Notice are: 34620000, 34632300, 34946210, 45234000, 45340000 and 50220000
Contract Classification, Tiering / Type : Gold

Future commercial contracts for DfT and partners

Listing of upcoming Department for Transport (DfT) and associated bodies commercial contracts – known as the commercial pipeline – for which bidders may apply.

www.gov.uk