Northern Tender for up to 450 units

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Want this ITT to become and order now, not just because new trains are nice but also because the specification is getting interesting.

Our own personal hopes are just hopes and decisions are made at a far higher status than we mere mortals. It was interesting to hear the commentary that followed on the Autumn Statement in which it was stressed that to achieve the tax cuts and to hold fast to the commitment on NHS funding (now accounting for over 63% of the total national figure), other sectors would have to face cuts, transport being one of these. Northern Trains receives its funding mainly from a certain source and that is the reality now to be faced.

 

[Snow1964]

What do they mean by dynamic charging, please?

It is ability to charge whilst also on the move on an electrified line (as opposed to just whilst stationary or plugged it)

Basically transformer and rectifier would need to be big enough to both power the train, and at same time use power to charge the batteries, and if they require different voltages, would need separate power electronics for each. Whereas some simpler systems have switched circuits, could do one or other, eg recharge whilst braking or stationary (but not when needing motors)

 

[HSTEd]

Our own personal hopes are just hopes and decisions are made at a far higher status than we mere mortals. It was interesting to hear the commentary that followed on the Autumn Statement in which it was stressed that to achieve the tax cuts and to hold fast to the commitment on NHS funding (now accounting for over 63% of the total national figure), other sectors would have to face cuts, transport being one of these. Northern Trains receives its funding mainly from a certain source and that is the reality now to be faced.

Ultimately if more modern trains allow reductions in staffing or other costs through reduced training or through various forbidden acronyms, they would more than pay for the costs of getting them.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Ultimately if more modern trains allow reductions in staffing or other costs through reduced training or through various forbidden acronyms, they would more than pay for the costs of getting them.

Would the rail unions have a somewhat different view of the "reductions in staffing" mentioned above?

 

[jonesy3001]

Does it not say whose building the new units?

 

[Mamorin]

Does it not say whose building the new units?

The ITT does not say because this is just an ITT for interest and designs not an order.

 

[skyhigh]

Does it not say whose building the new units?

Again, nobody knows as the bids haven't even been submitted yet!

 

[Nottingham59]

It is ability to charge whilst also on the move on an electrified line (as opposed to just whilst stationary or plugged it)

So are they envisaging batteries just as a way of capturing the kinetic energy of the train in regenerative braking? A tri-mode can get away with a tiny battery, but I would be really surprised if they didn't include bigger battery capacities than that.

 

[snowball]

So are they envisaging batteries just as a way of capturing the kinetic energy of the train in regenerative braking? A tri-mode can get away with a tiny battery, but I would be really surprised if they didn't include bigger battery capacities than that.

The reference is to the item at the top of page 87 in the new (December) MR. The context of the bit quoted by Manorin in #359 is:

Northern is seeking a reconfigurable hybrid train - an electric train with a diesel and battery component, such that the train would determine the optimum mode of power. As electrification progresses and battery technology advances, the aim would be to remove the diesel element. It is understood dynamic charging from the OLE is not part of the specification, which has come as a surprise to some manufacturers.

I share their surprise. Does it mean charging will only be from the diesel? What order of magnitude of battery capacity are they thinking of?

It then says Northern has not ruled out hydrogen trains for some routes but that would be a separate later order.

It concludes by saying there is concern from manufacturers that the specification may not be affordable in current circumstances.

 

[Snow1964]

I share their surprise. Does it mean charging will only be from the diesel?


It concludes by saying there is concern from manufacturers that the specification may not be affordable in current circumstances.

That doesn't rule it out, let's say a manufacturer already fits dynamic charging to a unit in another European country.

They might think let's fit same traction package in a UK version, the alternative being to make non standard version for UK. The problem with non standard versions is they tend to need different software, so sometimes it is easier just to fit a smallish add on, than go to trouble of redesigning it to be without.

Similarly if they buy in diesel engines, just going to offer standard output version, that does the job, even if bit over rated, rather than design new engine. The more non standard parts that get fitted, the worse it becomes to get spares as the trains get older.

 

[snowball]

But how are Northern intending to operate the trains if without dynamic charging?

 

[Energy]

That doesn't rule it out, let's say a manufacturer already fits dynamic charging to a unit in another European country.

It doesn't stop a manufacturer including it within their bid but Northern can't mark it positively when selecting their bid if it isn't required in the specification.

 

[absolutelymilk]

But how are Northern intending to operate the trains if without dynamic charging?

As I understand it, they could charge when stationary in stations, just not when on the move

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Again, nobody knows as the bids haven't even been submitted yet!

Well said.

 

[Nottingham59]

As I understand it, they could charge when stationary in stations, just not when on the move

That's bizarre, and probably a mistake.

The ITT does not say because this is just an ITT for interest and designs not an order.

One would trust that they include dynamic charging in the final ITT

 

[Mamorin]

Richard Clinnick posted this on Twitter yesterday.

Quote from @HuwMerriman regarding @LNER’s new fleet: “Replacing ageing rolling stock is crucial to the sustainability, reliability and growth of our rail network.” Yet @AlstomUK’s Litchurch Lane is at risk. This was first order (other than HS2) since @AvantiWestCoast in 2019.

This give me a small bit of hope this ITT has a chance at becoming an order, as in the long term buying new trains now must be cheeper in the long term than keeping Northern's sprinters going for say another 10 years.

I don't have high hopes though given LNER bought from CAF and Northern are not guaranteed to do that.

 

[HSTEd]

Richard Clinnick posted this on Twitter yesterday.

Quote from @HuwMerriman regarding @LNER’s new fleet: “Replacing ageing rolling stock is crucial to the sustainability, reliability and growth of our rail network.” Yet @AlstomUK’s Litchurch Lane is at risk. This was first order (other than HS2) since @AvantiWestCoast in 2019.

That does sound a bit like "the first order, apart from the other orders", to me.
But utlimately if Litchurch Lane cannot offer a quality product at a competitive price, I see no reason to save it when we have three other rolling stock factories in the UK as it is.

 

[Snow1964]

Not sure if these are new trains, or some spare ones from elsewhere, but in the notes to todays Government £3.9bn for Transpennine routes it says

It will support TransPennine Express in engaging with manufacturers on options for up to 29 new trains to replace the existing diesel fleet, in addition to new trains for local stopping services operated by Northern, ensuring trains along the line are suited to the modernised tracks.

Service announcement: £3.9 billion boost for more reliable train journeys in the North

Passengers will benefit from a fully-electrified line, accessible stations and more frequent services.

www.gov.uk

 

[jonesy3001]

It's this bit that's interesting me, new trains for northern as well or the existing stock?

It will support TransPennine Express in engaging with manufacturers on options for up to 29 new trains to replace the existing diesel fleet, in addition to new trains for local stopping services operated by Northern, ensuring trains along the line are suited to the modernised tracks.

 

[Anonymous10]

Not sure if these are new trains, or some spare ones from elsewhere, but in the notes to todays Government £3.9bn for Transpennine routes it says

Service announcement: £3.9 billion boost for more reliable train journeys in the North

Passengers will benefit from a fully-electrified line, accessible stations and more frequent services.

www.gov.uk

Believe the only fleet free of approaching that size that run on diesel is the class 175s but with a much lower capacity that isn't likely and the mk5s aren't near to 29 sets so I'd say new build.

 

[Energy]

Not sure if these are new trains, or some spare ones from elsewhere, but in the notes to todays Government £3.9bn for Transpennine routes it says

Service announcement: £3.9 billion boost for more reliable train journeys in the North

Passengers will benefit from a fully-electrified line, accessible stations and more frequent services.

www.gov.uk

Sounds like 185 replacement...

 

[Killingworth]

Up to 29 new trains.

Currently the 51 three car 185 sets have no corridor connections and are often inadequate when worked singly. New 6 car units would probably provide enough capacity for current diagrams? But if increased passenger numbers are attracted by the time they're operational will they be able to work in multiple with anything else?

 

[3RDGEN]

Given the announcement is about the northern TPE route and little of the southern route is electrified I would suspect the 29 new trains are to replace the 185's on the northern route only.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Believe the only fleet free of approaching that size that run on diesel is the class 175s but with a much lower capacity that isn't likely and the mk5s aren't near to 29 sets so I'd say new build.

I'd say 5 car 802s. TPE would really benefit from a homogeneous fleet (OK, except Scotland, but those services are really separate).

Though I suppose CAF might bid with a shorter version of the LNER unit.

 

[Mamorin]

Though I suppose CAF might bid with a shorter version of the LNER unit.

So CAF may offer more 397s then? Since the LNER units look to just be 10 car Tri-mode 397s.

 

[Killingworth]

Given the announcement is about the northern TPE route and little of the southern route is electrified I would suspect the 29 new trains are to replace the 185's on the northern route only.

I note Greater Anglia runs a fleet of bimodes that barely see wires let alone operate under them.

According to the HS2 cancellation announcement many lines will be electrified - including the Hope Valley line and Hull-Selby. One day, maybe.

Not to replace all 185s would leave TPE with yet more fleet complexity.

 

[dgl]

I'd say 5 car 802s. TPE would really benefit from a homogeneous fleet (OK, except Scotland, but those services are really separate).

Though I suppose CAF might bid with a shorter version of the LNER unit.

Doubt any more 80x's would be ordered anytime soon, the price has gone up and Hitachi seem to be universally derided by all operators who run 80x's. A homogenous fleet is a good idea but not when the supplier doesn't seem to care about what they are supplying, I don't think any other supplier/maintainer would allow a train to go out with a Swastika on it!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Doubt any more 80x's would be ordered anytime soon, the price has gone up and Hitachi seem to be universally derided by all operators who run 80x's. A homogenous fleet is a good idea but not when the supplier doesn't seem to care about what they are supplying, I don't think any other supplier/maintainer would allow a train to go out with a Swastika on it!

The swastika was first noted around 3,000 BCE during the Indus Valley Civilisation from what I can remember being taught at secondary school in the late 1950s/early 1960s.

 

[Mamorin]

the price has gone up and Hitachi seem to be universally derided by all operators who run 80x's.

Didn't know the 80xs were derided by all operators who run them, only though GWR and LNER would have derided the 80x.

With the price being so high and all operators of the 80xs derideding them Hatichi don't stand a chance at building any new trains for Northern… If Northern's ITT becomes an order which might not happen.

Tbh never felt Northern would pick Hitachi to build new trains if the ITT becomes an order, which again might not happen.

 

[skyhigh]

The swastika was first noted around 3,000 BCE during the Indus Valley Civilisation from what I can remember being taught at secondary school in the late 1950s/early 1960s.

Oh right, that's fine then. No reason why trains shouldn't go around with them spray painted on then...