Northern Tender for up to 450 units

[Davester50]

Indeed this will presumably become the default train across the country for all operators looking to replace DMUs, in the way the Turbostar became the "default" DMU after privatisation for most operators, so an order well worth winning.

I would think that's a good thing too. Standardisation rather than producing oddball types is the future, albeit boring.

 

[Danfilm007]

I would think that's a good thing too. Standardisation rather than producing oddball types is the future, albeit boring.

Happens every time though - the HSTs and Sprinters were boring when introduced as it reduced fleet types to a degree!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would think that's a good thing too. Standardisation rather than producing oddball types is the future, albeit boring.

Agreed. The post privatisation TOCs that ordered 175s (less reliable) and 185s (super thirsty and expensive) probably regret not just getting more 170s, and there'd have been a flexibility of redeployment gain.

 

[AlastairFraser]

The frequent stops would mean faster acceleration could by offset by a lower top speed.

No, because we're talking about short range batteries here and all of the energy is going to be used just to get up the gradients, faster acceleration will use up too much energy to do a return trip e.g. HG to Buxton/Bolton to Clitheroe, off the wires, with a short range battery.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Indeed this will presumably become the default train across the country for all operators looking to replace DMUs, in the way the Turbostar became the "default" DMU after privatisation for most operators, so an order well worth winning.

The railway has proved incapable of sticking with a standard design, partly because technology is moving so fast, and partly because getting railway operators to agree on requirements and a fixed design is low - just look at TPE's last procurement.
There is as yet no standard decarbonisation design, and the bids against this tender are unlikely to be the last word.
I suspect we will get a limited order initially, and then change our minds on how that design should evolve.
Standardisation is also the opposite of competition, and DfT won't want to be locked into a high priced deal with a single manufacturer.
Even BR split its orders between manufacturers (eg the Networker fleet).

And we already have a diesel-battery hybrid solution - the TfW class 230 [takes cover...].

 

[Davester50]

Standardisation is also the opposite of competition, and DfT won't want to be locked into a high priced deal with a single manufacturer.

They can still be manufactured by different companies to a standard design, so compatibility is probably a better word.
Look how the 170s were backwards compatible with MetCam and BREL Sprinters.

 

[northwichcat]

No, because we're talking about short range batteries here and all of the energy is going to be used just to get up the gradients, faster acceleration will use up too much energy to do a return trip e.g. HG to Buxton/Bolton to Clitheroe, off the wires, with a short range battery.

Why are we talking about short range batteries?

The Japanese are introducing battery trains on the Oga Line. I've never seen it in person but the non-electrified section is longer than Hazel Grove to Buxton. It's 26.4km from end to end. There's overheads at the Oiwake only (where the branch joins the mainline) and a recharging point at the last station. It doesn't exactly look like a flat line: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oga_Line#/media/File:Oga-Line-EV-E801-G1.jpg

In Latvia they're introducing BEMUs on Rīga to Sigulda - a line around 60% longer than Manchester to Buxton.

Are there cave men working at Buxton who wouldn't be able to comprehend how to use modern technology?

 

[yorkie]

Just a gentle reminder that this thread is for actual developments; any suggestions, proposals, predictions or anything else of a speculative nature belongs in the relevant forum section please. Thanks

 

[norbitonflyer]

Agreed. The post privatisation TOCs that ordered 175s (less reliable) and 185s (super thirsty and expensive) probably regret not just getting more 170s, and there'd have been a flexibility of redeployment gain.

It was only First Group that ordered them (FGW and FNW).

 

[Bletchleyite]

It was only First Group that ordered them (FGW and FNW).

Indeed it was only FirstGroup that deviated from the norm - the 185s were them, too. And now it's only FirstGroup that are fiddling with 230s which really should go for scrap (on any scale, there are for now also the TfW ones, but I bet they won't last).

Does that tell anyone anything?

 

[Anonymous10]

This tender sounds dangerously sensible.

Wouldn't 450 units be essentially the entire Northern fleet?

It appears to be the Irish 22000 solution, which I heartily approve of.

EDIT:

it's a hundred units more than the entire Northern Rail fleet, so I suppose it could be some sort of neo-IEP project? 450 units comprising multiple carriages is a lot.

Who knows could be involving gwr at that volume.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Who knows could be involving gwr at that volume.

As I said I think it could be a "replace all 15x in England" project managed by Northern in the absence of GBR.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

As I said I think it could be a "replace all 15x in England" project managed by Northern in the absence of GBR.

With 306 English Sprinters (everything but ScotRail and TfWs), the numbers do fit, and with space to add on more units for odd fleets like Northern's 170s which EMR would probably want.

 

[Bletchleyite]

With 306 English Sprinters (everything but ScotRail and TfWs), the numbers do fit, and with space to add on more units for odd fleets like Northern's 170s which EMR would probably want.

And remember that because these new units will have a pantograph and a diesel engine (to start with), they'll be a minimum of 3-car units, my guess would be some 3s and some 4s. This being the case they'll offer more capacity than the present primarily 2-car fleet, which means Northern may see a reduction in the number of units but an increase in capacity nonetheless. Northern run hardly any single 2-car units these days, only on the branches, and there are enough 2.195s for those (that being the reason 2.195s were procured to start with).

The only EMU available in the UK at present that is basically equivalent to 2x24m with a pantograph is the 3-unit Class 755, and even that is a bit bigger.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

And remember that because these new units will have a pantograph and a diesel engine (to start with), they'll be a minimum of 3-car units, my guess would be some 3s and some 4s. This being the case they'll offer more capacity than the present primarily 2-car fleet, which means Northern may see a reduction in the number of units but an increase in capacity nonetheless. Northern run hardly any single 2-car units these days, only on the branches, and there are enough 2.195s for those (that being the reason 2.195s were procured to start with).

The only EMU available in the UK at present that is basically equivalent to 2x24m with a pantograph is the 3-unit Class 755, and even that is a bit bigger.

Yep, the 450 feels like a massive number that assuming no 2 car option exists, is an absolutely massive amount.
450*3=1350 carriages, which is more than Northern has across all of its fleet, the 450 is a clearly massive upper limit, even if we only see 300 of the units built that'd still be a massive fleet that'd make it the largest active passenger class in the country (377 in 2nd with 239 units)

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Indeed it was only FirstGroup that deviated from the norm - the 185s were them, too. And now it's only FirstGroup that are fiddling with 230s which really should go for scrap (on any scale, there are for now also the TfW ones, but I bet they won't last).
Does that tell anyone anything?

Competition meant choosing between bids, and no doubt the Alstom/Siemens bids were "better" that Adtranz or whatever they were at the time.
Derby made no secret of wanting large EMU orders and didn't bother bidding for DMUs after a while.
They still don't have a recent track record for a DMU/battery platform, unless it is to come from the new Alstom European stable.
Just mandating "more Turbostars please" was not a viable strategy, and wouldn't have kept Derby open.

The 185s came about when SWT turned its back on (old) Alstom and went with the Desiro, which went on to gain a good market share and reputation for quality.
A generation on, is the railway as keen on Aventra after the experiences with several TOCs, having placed large orders with Derby?

 

[Energy]

Indeed it was only FirstGroup that deviated from the norm - the 185s were them, too.

The 175/180s were North Western Trains' ordering, later rejigged by First Group as the 180s got moved.

And now it's only FirstGroup that are fiddling with 230s which really should go for scrap (on any scale, there are for now also the TfW ones, but I bet they won't last).

Kind of, the DfT will be interested in the fast charge technology and have bought it through GWR.

 

[cnjb8]

With 306 English Sprinters (everything but ScotRail and TfWs), the numbers do fit, and with space to add on more units for odd fleets like Northern's 170s which EMR would probably want.

Wouldn't it better to replace the Networkers rather than 170s that have settled well with Northern? Besides, if this new order replaces EMRs 158s then there is no need for any extra 170s at EMR

 

[anthony263]

Competition meant choosing between bids, and no doubt the Alstom/Siemens bids were "better" that Adtranz or whatever they were at the time.
Derby made no secret of wanting large EMU orders and didn't bother bidding for DMUs after a while.
They still don't have a recent track record for a DMU/battery platform, unless it is to come from the new Alstom European stable.
Just mandating "more Turbostars please" was not a viable strategy, and wouldn't have kept Derby open.

The 185s came about when SWT turned its back on (old) Alstom and went with the Desiro, which went on to gain a good market share and reputation for quality.
A generation on, is the railway as keen on Aventra after the experiences with several TOCs, having placed large orders with Derby?

Don't forget the aventra was originally a bombardier product hopefully Alstom are able to sort out aby further issues

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Wouldn't it better to replace the Networkers

It's a big order and on one draft of that post GWR's (Chiltern seem to be doing their own thing) Networkers were in fact an example.

170s that have settled well with Northern?

It just feels like weird thing to keep around when standardising to 2 diesel classes (whatever this 7xx is and the 195s) would probably work better.

Besides, if this new order replaces EMRs 158s then there is no need for any extra 170s at EMR

This order as a whole may lead to some shuffling of units around, we'll just have to see.

 

[RailWonderer]

Northern run hardly any single 2-car units these days, only on the branches, and there are enough 2.195s for those (that being the reason 2.195s were procured to start with).

? They run them on the Nottingham Leeds every hour and aren't uncommon on Calder Valley diagrams either

Agreed. The post privatisation TOCs that ordered 175s (less reliable) and 185s (super thirsty and expensive) probably regret not just getting more 170s, and there'd have been a flexibility of redeployment gain.

TOCs each had their own specific requirements, e.g. TPE wanting more powerful engines for the Manchester - Sheffield/Huddersfield routes and FNW intercity style doors at end cars rather than 1/2 2/3 doors as with the 170s. In this OLR/DfT led era we will probably see more of a compromise in return for standardisation. That way not only maintanance and driver training costs fall but drivers traction cards are simpler so easier for them to move around as well.

As an enthusiast I will miss the privitisation era with a large variety of rolling stock about including old BR stuff but times are changing.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It's a big order and on one draft of that post GWR's (Chiltern seem to be doing their own thing) Networkers were in fact an example.

It isn't a "big order", it's for a framework agreement covering a series of separate contracts potentially totalling 450 units.
It's very unlikely anyone will commit to nearly 1000 vehicles, either the TOC or the manufacturer, because of the risks involved over a longish timespan.
There's no train design yet, anyway, just a set of operator requirements.

 

[CAF397]

Northern run hardly any single 2-car units these days, only on the branches, and there are enough 2.195s for those (that being the reason 2.195s were procured to start with).

Pay a visit to many places on the Northern network and you sill see 150s, 155s, 156s, 158s and 195s all operating as single 2-car services frequently on many routes including the busy commuter times.

 

[_toommm_]

Northern run hardly any single 2-car units these days,

This is Sheffield every day. At least half the services two cars. If it weren’t for the 150/0, the Huddersfield and Leeds services would also be two cars.

Realtime Trains | Departures from Sheffield all day on 11/08/2023

Train information at Sheffield all day on 11/08/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Geeves]

One of the reasons trains start with 4 and half the day get split is all the trains are on different maintenance schedules and miles, which obviously wouldn't be a problem if the entire train was 4 cars as standard in the first place which they definitely need to be in most places now especially round the major cities

 

[Jozhua]

This seems kind of unexpected, but I guess the sheer age of the 15X units will force their hands at some point...

Whilst the 195s were a welcome refresh, they didn't even have enough capacity for today, nevermind a 'growing' railway. 331 order seemed actually adequate, which was unexpected!

Guessing we can expect a fair few more Northern services to go electric over the next 10 years, with electrification of Manchester-Leeds and Leeds - York, with Stalybridge coming online earlier for Manc commuter services.

The challenge I see really is that this fleet will need to last 30yrs, well past 2050, so will have to be compatible with complete traction decarbonisation - that's gonna make the DFT squirm!

 

[skyhigh]

The challenge I see really is that this fleet will need to last 30yrs, well past 2050, so will have to be compatible with complete traction decarbonisation

Have you read the OP? That's exactly what is specified.

 

[Tynwald]

175 & 180 were the coradia units got built. There should have been a fleet of 3car 180s, for FNW To operate London sevices. FNW lost the paths down the WCML. Three other companies were seriusly looking at fleets of coradias.

 

[Peterthegreat]

This is Sheffield every day. At least half the services two cars. If it weren’t for the 150/0, the Huddersfield and Leeds services would also be two cars.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...1/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=NT

And in the North East.

 

[Iskra]

And remember that because these new units will have a pantograph and a diesel engine (to start with), they'll be a minimum of 3-car units, my guess would be some 3s and some 4s. This being the case they'll offer more capacity than the present primarily 2-car fleet, which means Northern may see a reduction in the number of units but an increase in capacity nonetheless. Northern run hardly any single 2-car units these days, only on the branches, and there are enough 2.195s for those (that being the reason 2.195s were procured to start with).

The only EMU available in the UK at present that is basically equivalent to 2x24m with a pantograph is the 3-unit Class 755, and even that is a bit bigger.

That might be true in the North West, but on the East side that's far from true.