Northern Service Reductions from 4th Jan 2022

[Moonshot]

My remote team is due to have our next face-to-face office day in Manchester. It will mean people from Middlesbrough, Bradford, Lincoln, Hereford, Derby, London and many other places will be getting the train to Manchester. We may not all be travelling every day but when we do it can mean some people are travelling long distances and paying high fares.

The November and December ones were both in London. The railways should have got as much revenue from me for those two trips as they would have made from 2 monthly seasons between Knutsford and Altrincham.

I say should as a combination of a delay to the Avanti train and Northern running a reduced timetable led to a 1hr+ delay to my journey and a Delay Repay claim.

Which wasn't the point I was making.

 

[td97]

Drivers RDW agreement was withdrawn by ASLEF approx 3-4 weeks ago.

Also working to fixed link hours only, not accepting the usual movement of start/finish times on a spare turn, and no agreeing to stay on after normal finish time or come in early to help.out etc

Northern seem to have coped better than TPE who currently have similar industrial disputes. Half term this week has been a little more volatile, but generally there have been few cancellations with the reduced timetable.
Probably explains why the Northern CLC semi fast (amongst others) has yet to be restored.

 

[175001]

Informally most drivers also not making themselves available for working extra Sundays (west) beyond those in the links (unless you're a Man Vic driver LOL)

I'm a Man Vic driver. I love that my Sunday's are covered again. LOL

 

[Geeves]

Aslef were never big on rdw in the first place, it was always about those sweet sweet subs. Wonder if the rdw will ever come back?

 

[175001]

I can't see it happening anytime soon

 

[DorkingMain]

This is becoming a serious issue for the industry and quite frankly needs to be urgently addressed but won't be all the while there is a lack of clarity about where the industry is headed. Its clear that T&Cs need to modernised to a 7 day working arrangement and the unions need to be bought along as to the serious threat the industry is facing and see that all parts of the industry are taking the pain so they collaborate. However, we are in the worst of worlds now with HMT losing patience with how much subsidy the industry needs and no big industry leader to explain the way to solve this is not to keep cutting but by I having a viable service that will attract people but the unions have to engaged to support the changes. The TOCs are largely not bothered just doing enough to claim the management fee and bonus with no incentive to do anything different. NR is just hiding behind CP6 settlement and ploughing on spending money as though its still running 2019 levels of traffic. Negative thoughts aside i don't see a Beeching Mk2 coming more just a railway that won't fulfil its potential we know it has.

Think it's very easy to blame "the unions" and claim they're holding back modernisation of working arrangements - however, a lot of these arrangements have existed because companies like them (fewer staff on the books, less training etc.) and staff like them because some people enjoy overtime opportunities. Unions would be quite happy for companies to hire the requisite number of staff and not rely on overtime, because then they get more members and more subs.

That being said, they wouldn't be very effective or popular as a union if they just let the company negatively change the working arrangements without giving anything back. Providing an incentive + hiring more staff to meet the required levels where overtime isn't needed costs a lot of money, something the DfT is not keen on handing out. Thus we find ourselves in the current stalemate.

 

[northwichcat]

Which wasn't the point I was making.

Are you sure? Someone not being on the 07:45 train every day due to a change in their circumstances, doesn't mean they'll never use the train. Hardly any companies have gone completely remote with no face-to-face days at all. While the companies who settle for monthly end up with less local workers. That means good connections between services are more important.

In fact, long term when the infection level settles more occasional commuters may give up owning a car. The high petrol prices could be another factor in people switching to the railways.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Feb 2022 ==

True, but the mid-Cheshire has never had the sort of intensive commuter service in talking about.

I get your point. But Northern seem to think 'turn up and go' at Hazel Grove and Cheadle Hulme is higher priority than a peak time extra on Mid-Cheshire. Our extras always seem to be the first to be cancelled if there's staffing or rolling stock issues.

 

[Peterthegreat]

Northern seem to have coped better than TPE who currently have similar industrial disputes. Half term this week has been a little more volatile, but generally there have been few cancellations with the reduced timetable.
Probably explains why the Northern CLC semi fast (amongst others) has yet to be restored.

Unless of course you live in South Yorkshire.

 

[175001]

Northern seem to have coped better than TPE who currently have similar industrial disputes. Half term this week has been a little more volatile, but generally there have been few cancellations with the reduced timetable.
Probably explains why the Northern CLC semi fast (amongst others) has yet to be restored.

Its been pretty poor on the Calder Valley late shift this week.

Noticed that many late Leeds via Bradfords have been cancelled due to no driver.

The very last departure from Vic on Wednesday was cancelled too.

Rare for the east side to have such shortages.

 

[Peterthegreat]

Its been pretty poor on the Calder Valley late shift this week.

Noticed that many late Leeds via Bradfords have been cancelled due to no driver.

The very last departure from Vic on Wednesday was cancelled too.

Rare for the east side to have such shortages.

Rare for Calder Valley to have such shortages. Not rare for South Yorkshire and the North East.

 

[LOL The Irony]

So let me get this straight. Northern have scrapped rest day working and it's looking like it won't be back for a long time, given their current position, and now aslef want to strike over the existence of rest day working, despite the fact it is currently deader than a dodo. Is this correct?

 

[Moonshot]

So let me get this straight. Northern have scrapped rest day working and it's looking like it won't be back for a long time, given their current position, and now aslef want to strike over the existence of rest day working, despite the fact it is currently deader than a dodo. Is this correct?

No. The ballot paper relates to Covid safety issues and lack of consultation on the reduced timetable. Rest day working was also withdrawn by ASLEF.

 

[175001]

So let me get this straight. Northern have scrapped rest day working and it's looking like it won't be back for a long time, given their current position, and now aslef want to strike over the existence of rest day working, despite the fact it is currently deader than a dodo. Is this correct?

Incorrect. As pointed out by Moonshot

 

[LOL The Irony]

No. The ballot paper relates to Covid safety issues and lack of consultation on the reduced timetable. Rest day working was also withdrawn by ASLEF.

Incorrect. As pointed out by Moonshot

So why is the strike ballot being talked about in association with rest day working, when it's about covid measures?

 

[northwichcat]

The ballot paper relates to Covid safety issues and lack of consultation on the reduced timetable.

I would have thought Northern bringing in a last minute revised timetable would have the greatest impact on the customer facing staff.

The government are set to remove COVID related measures altogether in the next few weeks, with NHS home testing kits and PCR test sites set to be scrapped. But again I'm surprised it's not the customer facing staff who are bringing up COVID related concerns, rather than people who are usually isolated from others in the cab. In my area Royal Mail have gone back to two posties sharing a van and splitting a double round between them, as it was pre-COVID. I'm not saying that's the right thing to do but it meets current government requirements.

 

[175001]

So why is the strike ballot being talked about in association with rest day working, when it's about covid measures?

It isn't.

 

[Deerfold]

It isn't.

It sounded like it was.

Drivers RDW agreement was withdrawn by ASLEF approx 3-4 weeks ago.

Also working to fixed link hours only, not accepting the usual movement of start/finish times on a spare turn, and no agreeing to stay on after normal finish time or come in early to help.out etc

Informally most drivers also not making themselves available for working extra Sundays (west) beyond those in the links (unless you're a Man Vic driver LOL)

A vote for strike action is underway.

 

[LOL The Irony]

It sounded like it was.

Indeed, the post you quoted doesn't mention covid anywhere but talks about rest day working before mentioning strike action.

 

[Moonshot]

So why is the strike ballot being talked about in association with rest day working, when it's about covid measures?

It isn't. RDW is purely voluntary. In effect it means probably around 12% less drivers available on any given day. Which would generally impact on the level of service that can be run.

 

[mandub]

Sorry for any confusion.

The strike vote is ostensibly about Covid measures the company refused to bring in, And the related issue of imposing a reduced timetable without consultation.

ASLEF withdrew RDW, independent of any strike vote that is ongoing.
ASLEF also withdrew cooperation for any movement from linked job times independent of any strike vote that is ongoing.

 

[Peterthegreat]

Sorry for any confusion.

The strike vote is ostensibly about Covid measures the company refused to bring in, And the related issue of imposing a reduced timetable without consultation.

ASLEF withdrew RDW, independent of any strike vote that is ongoing.
ASLEF also withdrew cooperation for any movement from linked job times independent of any strike vote that is ongoing.

So bearing in mind these appear to be past events what do they expect to achieve by a strike? Genuine question.

 

[mandub]

So bearing in mind these appear to be past events what do they expect to achieve by a strike? Genuine question.

I dunno.
Just passing on what I heard about it.

At a guess, it could be an attempt to put pressure on the company to stop ignoring the union, not entering into pay talks etc
Just a guess.

 

[Peterthegreat]

I dunno.
Just passing on what I heard about it.

At a guess, it could be an attempt to put pressure on the company to stop ignoring the union, not entering into pay talks etc
Just a guess.

Thanks. If Northern "ignore" the unions like they "ignore" their passengers I am not surprised there are tensions.

 

[Moonshot]

Thanks. If Northern "ignore" the unions like they "ignore" their passengers I am not surprised there are tensions.

This isn't really correct......there have been various meetings between ASLEF and Northern management, which has ended up with a " fail to agree". The ASLEF machinery kicks in at this stage and it goes to the membership.

 

[Peterthegreat]

This isn't really correct......there have been various meetings between ASLEF and Northern management, which has ended up with a " fail to agree". The ASLEF machinery kicks in at this stage and it goes to the membership.

Hence my use of inverted commas.

 

[Starmill]

So bearing in mind these appear to be past events what do they expect to achieve by a strike? Genuine question.

Usually what happens is that a pay rise agreement, if one can be reached, includes a term that all current matters of dispute are at an end. It seems unlikely one will be reached in the current circumstances however.

 

[northwichcat]

While the storm closing the Stockport to Manchester line isn't Northern's fault. The current departures for Stockport does kind of highlight which route they prioritise in an emergency. The Buxton service is showing as cancelled between Manchester and Stockport, while all others are cancelled throughout.

 

[30907]

While the storm closing the Stockport to Manchester line isn't Northern's fault. The current departures for Stockport does kind of highlight which route they prioritise in an emergency. The Buxton service is showing as cancelled between Manchester and Stockport, while all others are cancelled throughout.

View attachment 110434

I e. they can run a DMU shuttle...

 

[northwichcat]

I e. they can run a DMU shuttle...

Chester line is also diesel.

 

[Watershed]

Chester line is also diesel.

Yes, but the Chester line is (predominantly) crewed from the Piccadilly end, with traincrew stuck at Piccadilly with no trains to pass to Stockport. 'Approved' taxis will likely be in short supply.

Whereas the Buxton line is crewed from both ends and thus it's possible to run a shuttle crewed from the Buxton end.