Northern running some trains today (Aslef strike)

[mandub]

First time they've done so on Aslef days as far as I'm aware.

Determination to support Eurovision behind decision to operate ‘airport express’ today despite strike, says Northern

Northern | Buy Cheap Train Tickets and Check Train Times

www.northernrailway.co.uk

 

[Peter Mugridge]

There's also a South Western Railway service running on some routes that weren't open on previous strike days - such as a Dorking service. That wasn't even showing online as recently as yesterday evening.

 

[BPN2022]

Are SWR involved in the dispute? There seems to be a lot of WTT in real time trains for their routes

I notice Northern workings are VSTP. Guess they are managers, or non union related staff?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Are SWR involved in the dispute? There seems to be a lot of WTT in real time trains for their routes.

The publicity we've had round here listed SWR for both disputes this week.

 

[142blue]

And how much effort is being made tomorrow

 

[winks]

I think only SWR depot drivers were involved today. Minimal impact on services to be honest. Tomorrow is a different story though as services finish around 7pm

 

[davews]

According the the SWR website only depot drivers are out. Most of their trains have been running with a few (ie 100 or so) cancellations. Been up to Richmond myself, took a little longer than it should as they had dropped the 1707 from the timetable.

 

[Sleepy]

Northern have run a few services as Driver Managers being paid £600 to break strike by ignoring Aslef agreement not to work trains on strike days.

 

[sportzbar]

Northern have run a few services as Driver Managers being paid £600 to break strike by ignoring Aslef agreement not to work trains on strike days.

Almost but it's not the driver managers driving, it's actually their managers (who are qualified drivers) doing the driving and ignoring the ASLEF agreement in place since 2008.....

 

[Watershed]

Northern have run a few services as Driver Managers being paid £600 to break strike by ignoring Aslef agreement not to work trains on strike days.

Dearie me - how dare they! Perhaps TfW drivers should go on sympathy strike, just to make absolutely sure that people are left stranded. I'm sure Northern drivers will be going on strike over this. Oh, wait...

It's bonkers that Northern ever agreed not to use managers to run a handful of trains during strikes. It's still a service so limited that the strike remains incredibly disruptive, but at least in this case it will help to mop up anyone unaware of the strike.

 

[baz962]

Almost but it's not the driver managers driving, it's actually their managers (who are qualified drivers) doing the driving and ignoring the ASLEF agreement in place since 2008.....

I was under the impression that driver managers aren't in ASLEF.

 

[43066]

Dearie me - how dare they! Perhaps TfW drivers should go on sympathy strike, just to make absolutely sure that people are left stranded. I'm sure Northern drivers will be going on strike over this. Oh, wait...

Dearie me indeed. Companies unilaterally reneging on ASLEF agreements and destroying goodwill has really benefited the travelling public so far, hasn’t it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 May 2023 ==

It's bonkers that Northern ever agreed not to use managers to run a handful of trains during strikes

But that did agree it. Whether or not you think it’s bonkers is neither here nor there.

 

[Wolfie]

Dearie me - how dare they! Perhaps TfW drivers should go on sympathy strike, just to make absolutely sure that people are left stranded. I'm sure Northern drivers will be going on strike over this. Oh, wait...

It's bonkers that Northern ever agreed not to use managers to run a handful of trains during strikes. It's still a service so limited that the strike remains incredibly disruptive, but at least in this case it will help to mop up anyone unaware of the strike.

Guess what happens next time Northern or those managers want any cooperation from ASLEF? Clue: the second word will be OFF!

Oh, and if one side can break an agreement then why should the other side honour it? I'm sure that there are aspects which the company rely on..... Suddenly they are now fair game!

 

[syorksdeano]

Guess what happens next time Northern or those managers want any cooperation from ASLEF? Clue: the second word will be OFF!

I'm assuming that the first one won't be BAKE?

 

[Wolfie]

I'm assuming that the first one won't be BAKE?

That is a fairly safe bet lol

 

[skyhigh]

The thing a lot of lower to middle management need to remember is when the dispute over front line pay and T&Cs is concluded, the DfT will move onto them. They won't get much sympathy from frontline staff if they willingly undermine them. Not to mention the divide and ill will it opens up.

(But of course, a lot of management will be facing pressure from their management to work these kinds of contingency roles so I realise it's not an easy choice)

 

[43066]

Guess what happens next time Northern or those managers want any cooperation from ASLEF? Clue: the second word will be OFF!

I'm assuming that the first one won't be BAKE?

Can you stay back five minutes to do an attachment?

Can you move more than the agreed amount off spare to help us out?

You can bake right off.

 

[sportzbar]

I was under the impression that driver managers aren't in ASLEF.

Correct they are not ASLEF but TSSA. However there is an agreement in place between ASLEF and Northern that DTMs do not drive trains without the presence of an ASLEF driver on the train including during industrial action which is why it's not been done before.

Driver managers are not driving trains as per the agreement but their managers are, which is breaking the agreement.

I would post up the document but as it's a confidential internal one i can't.....

 

[Bantamzen]

Correct they are not ASLEF but TSSA. However there is an agreement in place between ASLEF and Northern that DTMs do not drive trains without the presence of an ASLEF driver on the train including during industrial action which is why it's not been done before.

Driver managers are not driving trains as per the agreement but their managers are, which is breaking the agreement.

I would post up the document but as it's a confidential internal one i can't.....

However ASLEF and Northern are currently in dispute, which will also not be part of any agreement. So unless there is a direct safety issue here, I'm unsure what the problem is?

 

[43066]

However ASLEF and Northern are currently in dispute, which will also not be part of any agreement. So unless there is a direct safety issue here, I'm unsure what the problem is?

As someone who claims to have been a union rep, you should surely be aware that a dispute is entered into following a process (a process which is already stacked against the unions) and relates to strike action and removal of overtime for certain periods. That doesn’t mean other agreements can be just unilaterally ripped up by either side.

If you want Northern to end up like TPE, this is exactly the way to go about it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 May 2023 ==

I was under the impression that driver managers aren't in ASLEF.

Some remain in ASLEF. Of course many will not drive trains on strike days out of general principle.

 

[Robertj21a]

Can you stay back five minutes to do an attachment?

Can you move more than the agreed amount off spare to help us out?

You can bake right off.

To an outsider, used to normal business arrangements - give/take etc - it's quite incredible to see and hear of so little co-operation in the rail industry.

Hardly a good example of UK business.

 

[43066]

To an outsider, used to normal business arrangements - give/take etc - it's quite incredible to see and hear of so little co-operation in the rail industry.

Hardly a good example of UK business.

A laughable statement, with absolutely no basis in reality. The railway relies heavily on goodwill (including willingness to do overtime) from thinly spread, demoralised and increasingly underpaid frontline staff. But that has to be a two way street, and hasn’t been for some time. The results when it breaks down are obvious to see; it can hardly function.

As someone who has worked both on the railway, and extensive experience elsewhere (beforehand I spent a decade in professional roles outside the industry), I can confirm that there is more co-operation in evidence in the railway than in other industries I’ve worked in.

On the subject of give and take, I haven’t seen any coming from the DfT…

 

[Bantamzen]

As someone who claims to have been a union rep, you should surely be aware that a dispute is entered into following a process (a process which is already stacked against the unions) and relates to strike action and removal of overtime for certain periods. That doesn’t mean other agreements can be just unilaterally ripped up by either side.

If you want Northern to end up like TPE, this is exactly the way to go about it.

As a former union rep I am very aware that any agreements between a union and employer can and often are at the very least put on hold. That's the very nature of a dispute.

Which brings me to ask, what exactly was the agreement? That non-ASLEF managers not drive trains on strike days called by said union? If that is the case that is laughable. A union demanding that the employer do not utilise staff who are not members of a union in dispute is, well frankly mad. And it should be very obvious why.

 

[Robertj21a]

A laughable statement, with absolutely no basis in reality. The railway relies heavily on goodwill (including willingness to do overtime) from thinly spread, demoralised and increasingly underpaid frontline staff. But that has to be a two way street, and hasn’t been for some time. The results when it breaks down are obvious to see; it can hardly function.

As someone who has worked both on the railway, and beforehand spent a decade in professional roles outside the industry, I can confirm that there is more co-operation in evidence in the railway than in other industries I’ve worked in.

On the subject of give and take, I haven’t seen any coming from the DfT…

Whether it's rail staff, managers or Unions matters little to the outside world. It looks too much like one big shambles of unhappy people and a general lack of professionalism.
Difficult to think of many other similarly outdated practices and poor staff relations in recent years.

 

[43066]

Which brings me to ask, what exactly was the agreement? That non-ASLEF managers not drive trains on strike days called by said union? If that is the case that is laughable. A union demanding that the employer do not utilise staff who are not members of a union in dispute is, well frankly mad. And it should be very obvious why.

But in this case the agreement was specifically dealing with disputes. The agreement was reached by both parties, who were supposedly negotiating in good faith. If it was so mad, why did the company agreed to it in the first place?!

How’s this for a scenario:

The company breaks that agreement and allows DMs to drive trains on strike days, providing a token and useless service which benefits hardly anybody anyway.

ASLEF retaliates by withdrawing overtime and working to rule, drivers generally refuse to cooperate in order to help out, which decimates the service the rest of the time.

Who really benefits then?!

 

[Bantamzen]

But in this case the agreement was specifically dealing with disputes. The agreement was reached by both parties, who were supposedly negotiating in good faith. If it was so mad, why did the company agreed to it in the first place?!

How’s this for a scenario:

The company breaks that agreement and allows DMs to drive trains on strike days, providing a token and useless service which benefits hardly anybody anyway.

ASLEF retaliates by withdrawing overtime and working to rule, drivers generally refuse to cooperate in order to help out, which decimates the service the rest of the time.

Who really benefits then?!

Think about it for a moment, a company agrees to not use staff who are not members of a union in dispute to cover work not being done by staff on strike. How exactly could anyone think that could work for moment? Now if the staff being used were not trained in the role, and this created a safety issue I could fully understand it. But expecting an employer to not utilise staff not members of a union in a dispute is unrealistic, even for a union in dispute.

As for who benefits? No-one.

 

[43066]

Whether it's rail staff, managers or Unions matters little to the outside world. It looks too much like one big shambles of unhappy people and a general lack of professionalism.
Difficult to think of many other similarly outdated practices and poor staff relations in recent years.

As you’ve said, you don’t work in the industry (despite being strangely interested in its industrial relations), and clearly know very little about it, so you are hardly best placed to comment on its working practices.

You’ve apparently not noticed the widespread issues in many other sectors, the common denominator in all cases being the government. You might want to look there for a lack of professionalism…

Think about it for a moment, a company agrees to not use staff who are not members of a union in dispute to cover work not being done by staff on strike. How exactly could anyone think that could work for moment? Now if the staff being used were not trained in the role, and this created a safety issue I could fully understand it. But expecting an employer to not utilise staff not members of a union in a dispute is unrealistic, even for a union in dispute.

As for who benefits? No-one.

I have thought about it, and you haven’t actually addressed my point!

Whether you agree with it or not, the company agreed it. Just like any other agreement, both sides need to stick to it, or goodwill breaks down. It’s obvious from your posts that you are against the unions in this dispute, so of course you won’t accept this isn’t anything other than the union’s fault.

 

[Mag_seven]

As we don't appear to be discussing Northern Trains anymore I think we will call time on this one.

thanks everybody