Northern RPI and Advance Ticket

[308165]

This afternoon I was on the 1626 Leeds - Skipton and a Revenue Protection Inspector (RPI) was on board along with the conductor.

The RPI had an issue with a passenger with an eticket who had a Manchester - Skipton advance fare, which she should have used on the 1556 Leeds - Skipton but hadn't because her inward service (1327 Chester - Leeds) had arrived 39 minutes late.

Although an advance fare it was a through ticket (I.e. Not split tickets - I checked this after with her). His approach to this was to give her a £60 penalty for being on the wrong train,even though it was Northern's inward train that had made her late, but he graciously(!) gave her the opportunity to email Northern to explain the circumstances. The RPI was also very poor at explaining his reasoning to the passenger.

I may be being naive about how things are these days but:

1. It seems grotesquely unfair to be fined because a Toc failed to run its train on time (and contradicts conditions of carriage?? )
2. If this is Northern's policy it seems to be designed to annoy and drive away passengers
3. If this was the RPI getting it wrong it seems that more training is needed.

Views welcome!

 

[scrapy]

It wouldn't have mattered if it was split tickets, the RPI was wrong. If you miss a connection due to late running you are entitled to take the next service of the operator you were booked on.

 

[AlterEgo]

The RPI is wrong, it is not Northern policy nor is it in the NRCoT to penalise passengers for this. The penalty fare will be easily appealed and a complaint should be made after the fact.

 

[308165]

It wouldn't have mattered if it was split tickets, the RPI was wrong. If you miss a connection due to late running you are entitled to take the next service of the operator you were booked on.

That's what I thought, but I couldn't get the evidence to hand to prove it at the time.

 

[Segedunum]

Very, very poor indeed. This should be easily quashed with an appeal.

It's actually Northern who owes the customer (in the form of delay repay), not the other way around...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Does Northern use the hired Carlisle thugs for on-train RPI duties, or do they employ proper RPIs? Not acceptable either way of course but the answer to this depends just how low a view I will form of them as a result of this.

I'd say this is so bad that that RPI should be sacked - this is really basic stuff. I get confusion over splits, but not through tickets.

This is a case where I would refuse a PF and allow it to go to Court to make a fool of them there if necessary.

 

[m0ffy]

This further entrenches my opinion that the railways should start losing some enforcement powers until they are subject to proper, external oversight.

 

[skyhigh]

Does Northern use the hired Carlisle thugs for on-train RPI duties

No. They're in-house staff.

 

[Grumpy Git]

This is absolutely mind boggling incompetence by the RPI. How do they employ such idiots?

It’s like being fined for doing 55mph on a road with a 60mph limit.

 

[Hadders]

This is a most basic principle that even a member of staff with a very basic knowledge of checking tickets should understand. I do hope the person will make a complaint to Northern.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No. They're in-house staff.

Thanks. That's even more disappointing - I expect Carlisle staff to be awful, not proper railway staff!

 

[ainsworth74]

That's what I thought, but I couldn't get the evidence to hand to prove it at the time.

It's quite hard to evidence because it's so blatantly fundamental! The only time I can ever recall having problems was with split advances, some staff would insist that in the event of a missed connections you were scuppered, but that was clarified maybe a decade ago now as being the wrong interpretation and I've not heard of any issues since. I can't ever recall hearing of someone being told that their AP is invalid when they missed a connection on a through ticket!

I really do hope the passenger in question complains as this is shocking from the RPI if there's nothing else going on.

 

[CE142]

All Northern Guards should just refuse RPI/PFC to do tickets in their trains!

 

[308165]

Thanks for the comments all. I find this sort of thing maddening, as it just invites people to stop travelling by train.

I wish there was a way of reporting the RPIs action to his management, but even if I could it probably wouldn't make any difference. Let's hope when Northern see the passengers explanation they work out what has happened and call the RPI in for a discussion.

 

[scrapy]

Am assuming here that the late service from Chester was the service the passenger was actually booked on with their advance? If they were booked on a different train the penalty would probably be legitimate.

 

[Class800]

Does Northern use the hired Carlisle thugs for on-train RPI duties, or do they employ proper RPIs? Not acceptable either way of course but the answer to this depends just how low a view I will form of them as a result of this.

I'd say this is so bad that that RPI should be sacked - this is really basic stuff. I get confusion over splits, but not through tickets.

This is a case where I would refuse a PF and allow it to go to Court to make a fool of them there if necessary.

@Bletchleyite I certainly think it's poor conduct what the RPI did. I don't think there's much precedence for dismissal over a single incident, although in other sectors of employment this is common. Hopefully Northern will refund and give compensation. There's a possibility Northern could refuse the appeal, so it can be seen to support its staff. It's a tricky balance sometimes

 

[skyhigh]

There's a possibility Northern could refuse the appeal, so it can be seen to support its staff. It's a tricky balance sometimes

In which case it's a good thing that penalty fare appeals are handled by an independent body.

 

[Starmill]

Thanks. That's even more disappointing - I expect Carlisle staff to be awful, not proper railway staff!

Well is it a surprise? Many of them are exactly the same staff who have been working for Carlisle Services' Northern contract for years, who have now been offered jobs at Northern...

Northern's in-house conductors and station staff are given very little training when it comes to things like ticket conditions. You and I think this is basic stuff but advance tickets on the wrong train weren't mentioned at all in the training course for a conductor which my friend went through. The revenue parts of the courses are only really about practical matters like how to use the ticket machine, how to report people for ticketless travel, and how to interact with the customer. Presumably the RPI training includes how to issue penalty fares too.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Mar 2023 ==

@Bletchleyite I certainly think it's poor conduct what the RPI did. I don't think there's much precedence for dismissal over a single incident, although in other sectors of employment this is common. Hopefully Northern will refund and give compensation. There's a possibility Northern could refuse the appeal, so it can be seen to support its staff. It's a tricky balance sometimes

Even if the appeal were being considered by Northern directly, which it wouldn't be, the details and results of any disciplinary process should be kept confidential, so they wouldn't affect this case. The genuine independence of the appeal panel, especially the stage one and two, is a matter about which there's disagreement. However there is agreement that it's not done directly by the organisation who issued the notice.

 

[308165]

Am assuming here that the late service from Chester was the service the passenger was actually booked on with their advance? If they were booked on a different train the penalty would probably be legitimate.

Yes - the booking was on that service.

 

[gray1404]

Yes - the booking was on that service.

There is nothing stopping you making a complaint yourself about the conduct you witnessed. In fact I would be minded to do so personally I was encouraged you to do so and let us know here what Northern say.

 

[Kite159]

There is nothing stopping you making a complaint yourself about the conduct you witnessed. In fact I would be minded to do so personally I was encouraged you to do so and let us know here what Northern say.

Most likely "Blah blah blah, passengers are wrong, we are correct, now just go away blah blah blah", or a stock response which completely ignores the original complaint.

Are the Northern RPIs given targets or some sort of bonus scheme with the number of PFs issued? You could understand if it was a contractor staff as they are poorly trained but an actual member of Northern staff. Beggars belief

 

[SuspectUsual]

There's a possibility Northern could refuse the appeal, so it can be seen to support its staff. It's a tricky balance sometimes

If that happened, it’d be even worse than the RPI’s initial mistake. And it isn’t tricky when your member of staff is 100% in the wrong. As an organisation you apologise and make it right