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Northern Route Upgrades

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oddiesjack

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There has been murmurings about reinstatement of the slow lines between New Mills South Junction and Chinley North Junction for a good while, to ease the capacity problems.

It has always seemed to me that if a single platform was to be put back in at Chapel-en-le-Frith Central, and the stoppers routed to go via there, it would allow fast trains through the Hope Valley to pass them, and also give Chapel a handier station for the town, as an added bonus. Furthermore, as most of the infrastructure is already in place, it would be a cheaper option than relaying the slow lines from New Mills South.
 
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Nym

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Is this about reinstating running lines at Bolton station?

Is the Salford Cescent scheme still just slightly lengthening, crowd measures and 'beautifying' the platform - singular - and not building any new platform capacity in?

Why put the through lines back in at Bolton, everything stops there...

What Bolton needs is Platform 5 putting back in, passive provision for metrolink on the Northbound island to terminate at the south (keep tracks far enough appart), the car park that is lost being moved to where the furnature store has shut down, replaced by a multi storey with a small charge for season ticket holders and rail users and a large charge otherwise, the passenger footbridge extending to this, with a satellite ticket office and TVMs, as well as a Manchester Road pedestrian entrance installed in an attempt to take some pressure off the main ticket hall, approach layout changed to that from Lostock you can access platforms 1, 3, and 4, to Lostock from 3, 4 and 5, and to/from Blackburn from 1, 3 and 4. Removing conflicts from the southern approaches, asside from use of Platform 2, this can be put into near disuse by putting a reversing siding / platform in at Horwich Parkway for stoppers to terminate at. The current car park becomes a service yard accessed by authorised vehicles only from Orlando Bridge (barriers / gates) with service lift access into the current ticket hall, for skips, deliveries, rail access vehicles etc. There is turning space under the ticket hall even with Platform 5 in.

Metrolink provision would be in place to allow the re-opening of the line toward Bury as metrolink and new street running lines out to Atherton, Leigh and Leigh Parkway (taking over pretty much the 582 route) and a line to Trafford Park / Trafford Centre starting off the idea of a circular rail route around Manchester, this should be combined with bringing Metrolink into ATOC, or setting up a zonal ticketing system similar to TfL in the TfGM area.

Salford Crescent needs a relocating further north, a massive circulation area and a minimum of three island platforms. Since the Atherton line is looking like migrating up to 3tph from 2tph, this would need one island platform of it's own, the Bolton line could survive with just two, but it might be better having another pair in case we see a massive service level increase on the line after it gets raped down by TPE and NT cutting services. The junction would be located pretty much where the current station is at the old station site, with the circulation area accessed from the current overbridge taking up the air rights over the land to the North of Windsor Bridge Jcn.

It could be worth building in provision for additional platforms on the Atherton line should this jump to 4 or 5tph if the DfT and TfGM see sense and put the line back into Leigh that way round.

And to add to all of this, Ordsall Lane needs grade seperating

And:
Oxford Road Rebuild and Metrolink intergration
OR:
Central (Midland) Re-opening for CLC, Windsor Link and Chat Moss terminating services, taking pressure off Oxford Road, reducing services through there to 2tph CLC, 2tph Windsor Bridge, 2tph Chat Moss & 4tph Orsdall Cord.
OR:
Exhange campus platforms at an extended Victoria Station for Chat Moss services approaching from Ordsall Lane, making use of the grade seperation and four tracking from Ordsall Lane to Deal Street, and extensive reversing sidings provided for Windsor Bridge services to either run through Platforms 5 and 6 onto Rochdale / Stalybridge or terminate into central reversing sidings on the appropriate running lines.

The latter seems the cheapest and most likely as it involves the least amount of civils. It's a given that Ordsall Lane needs grade seperating, the only issue I can see is any further growth on the CLC will still saturate Oxford Road station at 6tph CLC, 4tph Ordsall Cord and 2tph each Chat Moss and Windsor Link, would saturate Oxford Road at 14tph passenger services. In an ideal world I would conduct both the exchange campus platforms at Victoria and a re-build of Oxford Road to put in two 185m platforms (1 and 4) and two 92m platforms (2 and 3) with conflict free movments, and have some new viaduct from Deansgate Locks (Metrolink) to the former site of Platforms 5 and 6, re-built of course, to house the Tram Train services for the Mid Cheshire Line and any additional Metrolink services over and above the 20tph per route currently planned for Manchester City Centre.

If one where re-building the likes of Manchester Central, it could include platforms for both terminating services from Metrolink that would not fir into the city, services from the CLC so that can move to a 6tph pattern, and with some clever viaducting, terminating services from the Chat Moss line and Windsor Link, but the two former would require a great deal of civils and involve closing the ex centre. It would also not provide any additional cross Manchester capacity, so personally I'd favour...:

Grade Seperation of Ordsall Lane Chat Moss - Victoria carried over the junction, four track to Deal St Junction with the Cord lines taking the northernmost tracks, southern tracks going into terminating bay platforms on the Exchange campus, used to terminate Chat Moss Services, through services from the Cord and Chat Moss (6tph, 4tph Cord, 2tph Liverpool) will use Platforms 3 and 4 at Victoria, possibly with the addition of some Windsor Bridge services (up to 10tph).

Re-build of Oxford Road to take 8 car trains and metrolink as described above.

And...

Piccadilly through platforms built with central reversing sidings beteen the US and DS lines out toward Slade Lane, services may terminate then at either Oxford Road in 2/3 or at Piccadilly by running into reversing sidings. Work on viaduct widening out to Longsight to begin now ready for HS2 to run onto the Baring St Industrial Area (TBD).
 

Failed Unit

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The option for four trains is:



So it could be four trains but only really two services.

LOL - so we have 2 trains running the Liverpool - Nottingham service, 1 running the TPE and 1 running the stopper.

I know that is not what you meant just the way they sometime view trains. i.e. we have 8 trains per hour in the peak between Edinburgh and Glasgow (8x 3 coach trains in 4 paths)

Splitting at Sheffield wouldn't be a bad thing, Manchester - Cleethorpes / Derby and Manchester - Lincoln / Nottingham for example.
 

David Dunning

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The BBC headline headline and intro writers did get a bit carried away on Look North (Yorkshire) at lunchtime 1330 , talking about electrification . However BBC Yorkshire Transport correspondent Alan Whitehouse made it clear in his piece that followed that he had heard nothing that indictated that this meant wiring Sheffield to Manchester
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Why not 100 or 110? Desiros can do 100, as can the cast offs no dowbt coming to play at Newton Heath...

I don't know what NR's plans are, but every increase above 75mph usually comes with extra costs like upgrading level crossings and signalling (to maintain sighting distances), as well as track and structures.

The North Wales main line was supposed to go from 75 to 90mph but mostly it was restricted to 80/85 because the track upgrade did not cover these extra costs.
The 90mph stretches are too short to be useful, and it's still 75 through the stations and the first 7 miles from Chester.
This on a largely straight/level line with mostly 100/125mph-capable trains.
The Sheffield/Preston/Bradford lines are if anything harder (winding/steep/lots of level crossings/old signalling).
Still, lets hope they manage to get a decent speed profile.
 

northwichcat

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Increasing the speed through Hazel Grove would help. There are 90 signs appearing along the Hope Valley line already but there may be issues with the heavy Desiros reaching though speeds.
 

Donny Dave

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The 185s won't struggle to reach and maintain 90mph, it's the 170s that will (especially heading to Manchester where it's uphill all the way to Cowburn tunnel).

There's plenty of SP differentials along the Hope Valley already.
 

northwichcat

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The 185s won't struggle to reach and maintain 90mph, it's the 170s that will (especially heading to Manchester where it's uphill all the way to Cowburn tunnel).

I was referring to the 185s being too heavy to keep Sprinter speeds not acceleration problems.
 

ainsworth74

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I was referring to the 185s being too heavy to keep Sprinter speeds not acceleration problems.

Actually I have a feeling that the better acceleration of the 185s compared to 170s tends to counter the lower top speed (due to the lack of Sprinter speeds) certainly this is the case between Hull and Leeds.
 

IanXC

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Network Rail's Northern Hub twitter account says that "#Northern Hub has been given £130 for three parts of the project - improving journey times and increasing capacity".

Anyone know how many parts of the project there are, so we can kinda tick them off?

They also mention a full funding announcement will be made in July.
 

Masbroughlad

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Sorry, not read the full thread, just the MEN link above. so apologies if answered already.

Where do the 2 extra trains on the Hope Valley come from? Will they be EMT, Northern, PPE or somebody else?
 

YorkshireBear

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Sorry, not read the full thread, just the MEN link above. so apologies if answered already.

Where do the 2 extra trains on the Hope Valley come from? Will they be EMT, Northern, PPE or somebody else?

I think its an extra TPE service im not too sure though. I definitely dont think its EMT.
 

northwichcat

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Where do the 2 extra trains on the Hope Valley come from? Will they be EMT, Northern, PPE or somebody else?

I think its an extra TPE service im not too sure though. I definitely dont think its EMT.

Based on the reports and the Northern Hub plans it's likely to be 2 units working a new Sheffield-Manchester service splitting at Chinley with one portion going to Piccadilly (possibly beyond*) via Stockport and the other portion going to Victoria (possibly beyond) via Marple. The existing TPE service would have an extra portion added on to it in the same way.

The EMT service would cease to go via Sheffield if the extra Sheffield-Manchester option is taken up and Leeds-Nottingham becomes half-hourly.

* options for beyond include the Airport, Liverpool, Preston and Chester.
 

Bakerbloke

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As I understand it Dore redoubling is the Hope Valley upgrade along with extensions of freight parking areas. There are also rumours that an extra two lines will pass one of the stations to allow express overtaking when a local stops.
 

YorkshireBear

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As I understand it Dore redoubling is the Hope Valley upgrade along with extensions of freight parking areas. There are also rumours that an extra two lines will pass one of the stations to allow express overtaking when a local stops.

Yeah from what i understand the hope valley upgrade has the three parts you mentioned.
1) Dore redoubling
2) Freight loops
3) passenger loops at at least 1 station.
 

Donny Dave

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The only station that I can think off that can fit an extra pair of lines on the outside of the station is Chinley, even then it will be a bit tight! It could be that the station itself will be a loop for the main running lines to pass on the land on the north of the station.
 

Nym

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Chinley wouldn't be tight at all, considering it used to have four through platforms and two bays I'm sure one can fit a couple of extra running lines back in again. And even if the extra lines where not used for running (express and stoppers come from other directions) it would be handy for the likes of timing...
 

YorkshireBear

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Chinley would be easy but you might have to make the station not the width of the titanic first.
 

oddiesjack

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Chinley used to have FIVE through platforms, not four. (one single-faced platform on the up slow, plus a couple of double faced island platforms for down slow and up and down fasts + an extra down platform.) The space for reinstatement of passing loops has been reduced by the new housing on the down side of the station.

However, there is definitely still room for an extra track with platform on the up-side, where the original platform 1 used to be. Only if the width of the present island platform is reduced, there'd be room behind the garden fences for a narrowish platform + track on the down side.
 
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