Northern rolling stock changes post electrification

[Starmill]

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.u...ackburn_creates_more_than_100_new_train_jobs/

Vivarail stock on Preston to Colne? Sorry if this has already been discussed, hadn't heard this before.

Sounds like nonsense to me...

 

[Mordac]

He might have meant Thameslink

 

[northwichcat]

He might have meant Thameslink

Knowing Newsquest he probably said Thameslink and their 'journalist' decided readers wouldn't know what Thameslink was and decided it was an underground route.

 

[notlob.divad]

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.u...ackburn_creates_more_than_100_new_train_jobs/

Vivarail stock on Preston to Colne? Sorry if this has already been discussed, hadn't heard this before.

Is there any chance he has just let slip the 'contingency' plan for the sprinter units that seem to be taking a very long time to refurbish?

We know that the Northern Rail management where not impressed by one of the refurbished units. Could their reaction to this have been to pause the program, work out the finances and place a still secret order for vivarail units. Vivarail have said they have orders, but cannot disclose them, but if the economics of bringing in vivarail units proves cheaper than refurbing the sprinter units that are causing problems dft surely wont complain too much.

I had been wondering if something like this had been going on in the background already but i was plumbing for more flex units to be brought in if/once they are proven

 

[northwichcat]

Is there any chance he has just let slip the 'contingency' plan for the sprinter units that seem to be taking a very long time to refurbish?

We know that the Northern Rail management where not impressed by one of the refurbished units. Could their reaction to this have been to pause the program, work out the finances and place a still secret order for vivarail units. Vivarail have said they have orders, but cannot disclose them, but if the economics of bringing in vivarail units proves cheaper than refurbing the sprinter units that are causing problems dft surely wont complain too much.

I had been wondering if something like this had been going on in the background already but i was plumbing for more flex units to be brought in if/once they are proven

I'm not sure what you're trying to suggest there. Are you suggesting Northern should use some D-Trains with their existing toilet-less LU interior in lieu of Sprinters permanently? If not then why do you think D-Trains will be quicker or cheaper to refurbish than Sprinters?

 

[CosherB]

Is there any chance he has just let slip the 'contingency' plan for the sprinter units that seem to be taking a very long time to refurbish?

We know that the Northern Rail management where not impressed by one of the refurbished units. Could their reaction to this have been to pause the program, work out the finances and place a still secret order for vivarail units. Vivarail have said they have orders, but cannot disclose them, but if the economics of bringing in vivarail units proves cheaper than refurbing the sprinter units that are causing problems dft surely wont complain too much.

I had been wondering if something like this had been going on in the background already but i was plumbing for more flex units to be brought in if/once they are proven

We all like a good conspiracy story, don't we? :roll:

 

[MCR247]

I'm assuming Northern D-trains will arrive in the middle of the night with no path on RTT to keep the secret right?

 

[YorkshireBear]

I'm assuming Northern D-trains will arrive in the middle of the night with no path on RTT to keep the secret right?

I heard from my pet hamster that they are currently stored in box tunnel as part of the strategic reserve.

 

[notlob.divad]

I'm not sure what you're trying to suggest there. Are you suggesting Northern should use some D-Trains with their existing toilet-less LU interior in lieu of Sprinters permanently? If not then why do you think D-Trains will be quicker or cheaper to refurbish than Sprinters?

From what I have read (only on this forum) it is not just toilets / Disability access mods that are causing problems with the Northern Refurbishments, but underlying rust problems and other such matters. That is why I considered the possibility that D-trains and or more Flex units could potentially be quicker and cheaper to bring into service. Don't get me wrong, I would be as disgruntled as the next if it happened, but there is surely the possibility there.

We all like a good conspiracy story, don't we? :roll:

No conspiracy story, its not Chinese Whispers, just taking all the information that is available, mainly the length of time it is taking per unit and lack of progress on the modifications, and now a regional director apparently saying:

as well as refurbished London underground trains being used on the East Lancashire line from Preston through Blackburn, Accrington and Burnley to Colne to replace 30-year-old Pacers by 2019, some could be brand new units.

So how do we get refurbished London Underground trains running to Colne? There are only 8 Flex units being proposed and as many have said on the thread dedicated to those, Network Rail/Dft will only be part funding these to run on routes with delayed electrification (which Preston-Colne is not one of).

Now it maybe that there is simply a misunderstanding between Mr Sumpter and the interviewer, alternatively something different to the original Northern plans could be on the cards.

 

[CosherB]

No conspiracy story, its not Chinese Whispers, just taking all the information that is available, mainly the length of time it is taking per unit and lack of progress on the modifications, and now a regional director apparently saying:

.... and then extrapolating that within your own imagination to your own ends? Do TOCs enjoy doing 'secret' deals?

 

[northwichcat]

Now it maybe that there is simply a misunderstanding between Mr Sumpter and the interviewer, alternatively something different to the original Northern plans could be on the cards.

Vivarail did manage to convince the media in the North West to report that D-Trains are being developed to replace Pacers, despite not having an agreement for them to actually be used in the North West, with the Blackpool South branch one of the routes Shooter was saying D-Trains would be ideal for. It's quite possible some people (including newspaper journalists) still think D-Trains are replacing Pacers despite the Northern franchise announcement not mentioning D-Trains.

I'm also very doubtful of someone from Northern saying that new CAF trains could specifically be used on Blackpool South to Colne services. Northern's official line seems to be the routes which are getting the new trains aren't yet finalised - so did the Newsquest journalist interpret that as meaning the new CAF trains could be used on the route?

From what I have read (only on this forum) it is not just toilets / Disability access mods that are causing problems with the Northern Refurbishments, but underlying rust problems and other such matters. That is why I considered the possibility that D-trains and or more Flex units could potentially be quicker and cheaper to bring into service. Don't get me wrong, I would be as disgruntled as the next if it happened, but there is surely the possibility there.

Northern have agreed to take on Flex trains and if successful they should be very versatile (given 150s can go almost anywhere) so there would be no problem finding more services to use them on either at Northern or at another operator if Northern no longer have any use for them. On the other hand the D-Trains won't be suitable for some routes - the bit of extra width, the non-standard carriage lengths and the 60mph top speed won't allow them to be used almost anywhere. If Northern wanted an additional option pre-2020 why would they go for D-Trains over more Flex trains?

 

[notlob.divad]

.... and then extrapolating that within your own imagination to your own ends? Do TOCs enjoy doing 'secret' deals?

Yes a bit of extrapolation, but I am not sure it is to my own ends, What am I gain from it, putting my thoughts down on a forum for discussion? I have no idea if TOCs enjoy secret deals, but they may be quite keen to bury bad news alongside some good news about the brand new trains, inside a positive press release.

Vivarail did manage to convince the media in the North West to report that D-Trains are being developed to replace Pacers, despite not having an agreement for them to actually be used in the North West, with the Blackpool South branch one of the routes Shooter was saying D-Trains would be ideal for. It's quite possible some people (including newspaper journalists) still think D-Trains are replacing Pacers despite the Northern franchise announcement not mentioning D-Trains.

Agreed, they are not currently in the Northern franchise plan and I am aware of that. But it doesn't mean plans cannot change. Initially the idea of the Flex was not in the Northern franchise plan.

I'm also very doubtful of someone from Northern saying that new CAF trains could specifically be used on Blackpool South to Colne services. Northern's official line seems to be the routes which are getting the new trains aren't yet finalised - so did the Newsquest journalist interpret that as meaning the new CAF trains could be used on the route?

Agreed, but he didn't say they won't be, therefore leaving the possibility that they could be. Possibly on the Blackpool North-Leeds connect route that would run through Blackburn, where the interview seemed to be focused on.

Northern have agreed to take on Flex trains and if successful they should be very versatile (given 150s can go almost anywhere) so there would be no problem finding more services to use them on either at Northern or at another operator if Northern no longer have any use for them. On the other hand the D-Trains won't be suitable for some routes - the bit of extra width, the non-standard carriage lengths and the 60mph top speed won't allow them to be used almost anywhere.

Agreed, however...

If Northern wanted an additional option pre-2020 why would they go for D-Trains over more Flex trains?

Cost (leasing, and track access charges),
The ability to form 2 or 3 coach lengths where as the Flex will be stuck at 4.
Acceleration for stopping services, (The 60mph gearing of a D-train may be a better profile for some of the frequent stop services, over the 100mph gearing of the Flex unit).

 

[northwichcat]

The ability to form 2 or 3 coach lengths where as the Flex will be stuck at 4.

If the additional Flex trains is used on diagrams which are set to be 2 x 2 car 150s then it won't be an issue. They'll certainly need to be 4 car Sprinter workings on the Oxford Road to Lime Street stoppers and the Buxton services, which are both partially wired routes.

 

[CosherB]

Yes a bit of extrapolation, but I am not sure it is to my own ends, What am I gain from it, putting my thoughts down on a forum for discussion? I have no idea if TOCs enjoy secret deals, but they may be quite keen to bury bad news alongside some good news about the brand new trains, inside a positive press release.



Agreed, they are not currently in the Northern franchise plan and I am aware of that. But it doesn't mean plans cannot change. Initially the idea of the Flex was not in the Northern franchise plan.



Agreed, but he didn't say they won't be, therefore leaving the possibility that they could be. Possibly on the Blackpool North-Leeds connect route that would run through Blackburn, where the interview seemed to be focused on.



Agreed, however...



Cost (leasing, and track access charges),
The ability to form 2 or 3 coach lengths where as the Flex will be stuck at 4.
Acceleration for stopping services, (The 60mph gearing of a D-train may be a better profile for some of the frequent stop services, over the 100mph gearing of the Flex unit).

Are you Adrian Shooter in disguise?!

 

[Jamesrob637]

If the additional Flex trains is used on diagrams which are set to be 2 x 2 car 150s then it won't be an issue. They'll certainly need to be 4 car Sprinter workings on the Oxford Road to Lime Street stoppers and the Buxton services, which are both partially wired routes.

It's certainly not unreasonable to ask of all Buxton services being 4 coaches is it? Currently a few are two car

 

[Bovverboy]

From the Liam Sumpter interview..

Virtually the whole of the North West diesel fleet will be based in Blackburn with new electric trains homed in Allerton, Liverpool.

Seems a bit over the top, although I suppose it depends what is meant by 'North West'. Are we to suppose that Newton Heath is to become no more than a stabling point?

I think the opening of the Blackburn depot will see the end of Allerton's involvement with diesels, though.

Has anyone noticed, we've just been on page 319..

 

[8A Rail]

From the Liam Sumpter interview..
Seems a bit over the top, although I suppose it depends what is meant by 'North West'. Are we to suppose that Newton Heath is to become no more than a stabling point?
I think the opening of the Blackburn depot will see the end of Allerton's involvement with diesels, though.
Has anyone noticed, we've just been on page 319..

I think Allerton will still service DMU's, not as they do now or in numbers but there is a requirement for DMU's on the CLC route so a couple of sets at least will still be based there (but not allocated).

 

[childwallblues]

I think Allerton will still service DMU's, not as they do now or in numbers but there is a requirement for DMU's on the CLC route so a couple of sets at least will still be based there (but not allocated).

A lot will depend on Allertons capacity. It currently has 28 x Class 156 and 24 x
Class 319 with 8 more to come. It is also a sole user depot unlike Neville Hill and Longsight were other TOCs share the site.
There are plans to extend Allertons capacity with the relaying of sidings adjacent to the social club last used to store demic Class 08s.

 

[Geeves]

Mr Sumpter has stated he was misquoted quite a lot in that little news piece, which isn't hard considering the quality of journalism these days.

There are no plans to close Newton Heath and the sidings at Blackburn will be just that. Fuel, cleaning and tanking only. The 195s will have an allocation to Newton Heath and that is where the heavy overhauls will be done in the future.

 

[lejog]

From the Liam Sumpter interview..

Seems a bit over the top, although I suppose it depends what is meant by 'North West'. Are we to suppose that Newton Heath is to become no more than a stabling point?

I think the opening of the Blackburn depot will see the end of Allerton's involvement with diesels, though.

According to this previous post Blackburn will only stable 6 5*23m trains.

Blackburn seems to be confirmed as the site for a new DMU depot. Northern are advertising for Trainee Drivers at the site, and from comments posted elsewhere on the Forum an opening in December 2017 is anticipated.

The planning application was lodged with Blackburn with Darwen Council on May 16th for Prior Approval (since it is to be entirely on railway land.) The application says this:

All the planning application documents, including detailed drawings, can be found here:

http://planning.blackburn.gov.uk/northgate/documentexplorer/application/folderview.aspx?type=PLNP11_DC_PLANAPP&key=50007&iWgrnzsWW4I=aH8Pp24Bn4U=

The drawings seem to suggest six depot roads, each capable of holding five 23m carriages:

http://planning.blackburn.gov.uk/northgate/documentexplorer/application/stream.aspx?target=http%3A%2F%2F10.200.18.171%2FNorthgate%2FDocumentExplorer%2FDocumentStream%2FDocumentStream.aspx%3Fname%3D%255bpublic%255d%2B16_0531%2BGeneral%2BArrangement%2BNHE_138957-2030-BBS4-101-DDR-T-001100-P01.pdf%26unique%3D50007%26type%3DPLNP11_DC_PLANAPP

 

[Bovverboy]

Originally Posted by Bovverboy
I think the opening of the Blackburn depot will see the end of Allerton's involvement with diesels, though.

I think Allerton will still service DMU's, not as they do now or in numbers but there is a requirement for DMU's on the CLC route so a couple of sets at least will still be based there (but not allocated).

A lot will depend on Allertons capacity. It currently has 28 x Class 156 and 24 x
Class 319 with 8 more to come. It is also a sole user depot unlike Neville Hill and Longsight were other TOCs share the site.
There are plans to extend Allertons capacity with the relaying of sidings adjacent to the social club last used to store demic Class 08s.

I wasn't able to see the logic in having a major dmu maintenance depot in a locality where there is very little dmu action. As far as I'm aware, only four diesel duties start and finish at Allerton, and one of those is effectively a stock transfer move.
However if Blackburn is now back to being basically a stabling point, I suppose that puts Allerton in the limelight again.

 

[IanXC]

I wasn't able to see the logic in having a major dmu maintenance depot in a locality where there is very little dmu action. As far as I'm aware, only four diesel duties start and finish at Allerton, and one of those is effectively a stock transfer move.
However if Blackburn is now back to being basically a stabling point, I suppose that puts Allerton in the limelight again.

You say that but it's also true that units operating in South Yorkshire particularly cycle through Heaton (near Newcastle) for exam work. Even on unit types that local crews up there don't sign.

 

[edwin_m]

You say that but it's also true that units operating in South Yorkshire particularly cycle through Heaton (near Newcastle) for exam work. Even on unit types that local crews up there don't sign.

This has always struck me as particularly wasteful, and presumably is down to lack of depot capacity further south. However it's probably a shortage of workshop facilities rather than washing/fuelling, so I'm not sure the creation of the latter in Blackburn will make much difference.

However Heaton will have a larger fleet locally due to the extra diesel services in the north-east, and it is likely that extra workshop facilities are needed somewhere oin Northern as there is a bigger fleet to maintain. One option (without any specific knowledge of the site) might be to create more workshop at Newton Heath at the expense of stabling, since fewer DMUs will be needed around Manchester and many of them can work in from Blackburn. This could allow all the DMUs west of the Pennines to cycle back to Newton Heath for maintenance, with overnighting at Allerton for the first couple of CLC workings in the morning. Probably the EMT HSTs will disappear from Neville Hill at some point, creating more capacity there too.

 

[childwallblues]

I think Allerton will still service DMU's, not as they do now or in numbers but there is a requirement for DMU's on the CLC route so a couple of sets at least will still be based there (but not allocated).

A lot more than a couple of units will be required. On the assumption that the Lime Street-Manchester Airport via the CLC will require 3 X 2 units, the CLC stopping service a further 2 or 3 x 2 units and the Helsby/Ellesmere Port service (1 unit) operated by Allerton that makes at least 11 units.

 

[Bovverboy]

Two bases I think will cease to have anything to do with diesels before very long are Stockport and Longsight. (Longsight in respect of Northern, of course).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Are there any plans to extend the number of enclosed buildings at Newton Heath?

 

[Geeves]

Yes work starts soon on a new shed extension for 195s at Newton Heath.

 

[northwichcat]

Two bases I think will cease to have anything to do with diesels before very long are Stockport and Longsight. (Longsight in respect of Northern, of course).

I thought Longsight was only used by Northern for 323s, while Stockport was somewhere Northern could stable units not in use, rather than being a depot. I imagine Northern would use Stockport more if it wasn't for the lack of weekday paths.

 

[northwichcat]

According to this previous post Blackburn will only stable 6 5*23m trains.

Which will end up being 12 units given Northern's 158s are 2 and 3 car and the same will be true of the 195s, while the single car 153s are going.

 

[IanXC]

Which will end up being 12 units given Northern's 158s are 2 and 3 car and the same will be true of the 195s, while the single car 153s are going.

Just because it has been designed for that does not mean it will only house 23m vehicles. I would expect some 150s and 156s too.