Northern rolling stock changes post electrification

[driver_m]

Why would the 331s be maintained at Allerton. They are replacing the 323 which are looked after at Longsight and are used on South Manchester services and there are extra sets for say Blackpool and and were to be used to Windermere as well. As far as I know no 331s will operate to Lime street.

Looking at this proposed lime st - Crewe via man airport these 331s could go to lime st.

 

[edwin_m]

It's a lot of distance to send units, but I doubt there's going to be much spare capacity at Neville Hill (and no scope for a "proper" depot in/around Sheffield).

There might be more capacity at Neville Hill if the successor to EMT ceases to base trains there.

 

[Bungle965]

Northern have said that all the new stock will be maintained in the existing depots. 195s at Newton Heath and Neville Hill. 331s at Neville Hill and Allerton. Blackburn is just a stabling and washing plant and will not do any heavy work similar to what Hull Botanic Gardens does for the stock working up there on diagrams out of Hull before they are rotated back to NH and Neville Hill.

I would guess that 150s will be split like the 142s are now between Newton Heath and Heaton with Heaton maybe gaining an allocation of 158s for the Carlisle jobs. We will see.

I am not sure that stabling is really an issue. Wigan, Preston, Blackburn, Sheffield, Harrogate, Barrow, Blackpool, Stockport, Darlington, Huddersfield, Leeds Holbeck and plenty of other stations overnight provide enough space for everything and more.

Blackburn will be able to house 25x 23 vehicles but if stabling isn't an issue then why is Blackburn being built?
Hull is also a bit different to the rest of the stabling points in that they actually do minor exam work which is not done at other stabling points.
Sam

 

[Viscount702]

Looking at this proposed lime st - Crewe via man airport these 331s could go to lime st.

Anything is possible but as it is only an extension of the existing Lime Street - Airport which is a 319 and it will become an all stations stopper I wouldn't have thought so.

 

[Geeves]

Blackburn will be able to house 25x 23 vehicles but if stabling isn't an issue then why is Blackburn being built?
Hull is also a bit different to the rest of the stabling points in that they actually do minor exam work which is not done at other stabling points.
Sam

They do minor works at Blackpool and Barrow too . Yeah I think one of the main reasons for Blackburn being built is to cut down on all the empty running out of Blackpool depot. Plus the need for trains to be available up there for the start of the half hourly Blackburn - Vic service. Services in the morning are often delayed getting stock up there for the start of service. The Blackburn line is also terrible for delays due to the single line section.

 

[northwichcat]

Anything is possible but as it is only an extension of the existing Lime Street - Airport which is a 319 and it will become an all stations stopper I wouldn't have thought so.

Not quite. The Lime Street-Victoria stopping service (currently a 319) will be diverted to Piccadilly and joined on to the Piccadilly-Airport-Crewe stopper (currently a 323.) The Lime Street-Airport will cease to exist as TPE will provide an additional semi-fast Lime Street and Victoria on Chat Moss and Northern will take over the semi-fast on the CLC and extend that to the Airport as a Northern Connect service.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Looking at this proposed lime st - Crewe via man airport these 331s could go to lime st.

It's not a 'Connect' service, so I doubt it will see many, if any, 331s, though perhaps there might be additional 'peak' stoppers between Manchester and Liverpool as a way of moving units between Allerton and Manchester.

Anything is possible but as it is only an extension of the existing Lime Street - Airport which is a 319 and it will become an all stations stopper I wouldn't have thought so.

Furthermore, because the semi-fast between Liverpool and Manchester is becoming part of the 'new-TPE'..... sorry, 'Connect' empire and very likely to be 195s, there will be more freed up 319s for..... erm..... something.

 

[superkev]

I suppose with all the electrification schemes running late the question is when will any northern get any more dmu's.
K

 

[lejog]

They do minor works at Blackpool and Barrow too . Yeah I think one of the main reasons for Blackburn being built is to cut down on all the empty running out of Blackpool depot. Plus the need for trains to be available up there for the start of the half hourly Blackburn - Vic service. Services in the morning are often delayed getting stock up there for the start of service. The Blackburn line is also terrible for delays due to the single line section.

As well as the increased Victoria service, there will be a couple of terminators from Leeds which will require somewhere to go in the early hours.

Blackburn will be able to house 25x 23 vehicles but if stabling isn't an issue then why is Blackburn being built?

So I can enjoy a night out in Leeds and catch a train home to Hebden Bridge at 23:49 instead of 22.20?

 

[edwin_m]

They do minor works at Blackpool and Barrow too . Yeah I think one of the main reasons for Blackburn being built is to cut down on all the empty running out of Blackpool depot. Plus the need for trains to be available up there for the start of the half hourly Blackburn - Vic service. Services in the morning are often delayed getting stock up there for the start of service. The Blackburn line is also terrible for delays due to the single line section.

On completion of the electrification the York services will be the only diesels running to Blackpool North, so it's no longer a sensible place to stable them. Whereas several routes that aren't being electrified pass through or near Blackburn.

 

[edwin_m]

Blackburn will be able to house 25x 23 vehicles but if stabling isn't an issue then why is Blackburn being built?

Stabling in platforms is possible but being DMUs many of them will need to go somewhere else to be fuelled as well as externally washed. Also the units stabling in platforms have to be the last few in at night and the first few out in the morning as the plaform is needed at other times, so the diagramming gets a bit complicated.

 

[driver_m]

It's not a 'Connect' service, so I doubt it will see many, if any, 331s, though perhaps there might be additional 'peak' stoppers between Manchester and Liverpool as a way of moving units between Allerton and Manchester.



Furthermore, because the semi-fast between Liverpool and Manchester is becoming part of the 'new-TPE'..... sorry, 'Connect' empire and very likely to be 195s, there will be more freed up 319s for..... erm..... something.

I was thinking more on the idea of which depots will sign these tractions. Arriva will obviously go for an option that suits their efficiencies and that requires Lime St drivers if they're going on Allerton. There isn't endless capacity at Longsight either which people need to bear in mind. Specially if TPE are going in there too.

 

[ainsworth74]

They do minor works at Blackpool and Barrow too . Yeah I think one of the main reasons for Blackburn being built is to cut down on all the empty running out of Blackpool depot. Plus the need for trains to be available up there for the start of the half hourly Blackburn - Vic service. Services in the morning are often delayed getting stock up there for the start of service. The Blackburn line is also terrible for delays due to the single line section.

Blackburn is being built to provide extra stabling space. Cutting down on empty running is just a nice side effect the main driving factor is making room for all the extra units. Don't forget that come 2020 the Northern fleet will have many more longer units than it does now (the fleet laid end to end will be something like a 1/3 longer than now). The space where you could stable two 2-car 142s (60m) will only fit, for example, a single 2-car 195 (48m). That all adds up rather quickly to Northern needing more room for stabling its units.

Also I'm not sure if you're aware of the scale of work carried out at Hull. It's pretty considerable to be honest and far more than Barrow or Blackpool do considering that they don't even have depot buildings!

 

[1179_Clee2]

I am not sure that stabling is really an issue. Wigan, Preston, Blackburn, Sheffield, Harrogate, Barrow, Blackpool, Stockport, Darlington, Huddersfield, Leeds Holbeck and plenty of other stations overnight provide enough space for everything and more.

It is not just extra siding space you need to store trains, you need to diagram trains differently so they can have their toilet waste tanks pumped out. How many of the above locations can empty toilet tanks. What Northern have done in the past wont work, if Northern do not empty toilet tanks it could find itself in the SH** in a big way (no pun intended)

 

[edwin_m]

It is not just extra siding space you need to store trains, you need to diagram trains differently so they can have their toilet waste tanks pumped out. How many of the above locations can empty toilet tanks. What Northern have done in the past wont work, if Northern do not empty toilet tanks it could find itself in the SH** in a big way (no pun intended)

I don't think Northern has any stock with retention tanks at present (maybe 333s?) so one hopes someone remembered to include the emptying facilities in the franchise terms.

 

[KevinTurvey]

I noted a couple of 8 car 319's passing through Wigan yesterday evening - the ex 19:30 Preston - Liverpool, and one sat in the terminating platform.

Is this a regular thing? - I've not seen this before, anyone know the reason - or is it just stock positioning for the morning?

 

[northwichcat]

I don't think Northern has any stock with retention tanks at present (maybe 333s?) so one hopes someone remembered to include the emptying facilities in the franchise terms.

Do the refurbished Sprinters and 319s (with new toilets) not have retention toilets or are they fitting accessible toilets and then making them retention toilets at a later date?

 

[8J]

319's have had retention tanks for a long time. (Not sure if from new but definitely pre northern). I don't think the modified sprinters have retention tanks fitted at the moment either.

The Lime St - Blackpool North service is due to become a "connect service" operated by 331's and I have also heard that they are to be maintained at AN.

 

[northwichcat]

The Lime St - Blackpool North service is due to become a "connect service" operated by 331's and I have also heard that they are to be maintained at AN.

Have Northern revised their plan or have you misinterpreted the Northern Connect map?

https://be803fe5c416e39d38ae-aa2108...es/maps/2016-07/NorthernConnectMap_July16.pdf

 

[Crossforth]

Don't know if it's already been reported but I've just seen 333009 back in service at Leeds after a long absence

 

[Loop & Link]

I noted a couple of 8 car 319's passing through Wigan yesterday evening - the ex 19:30 Preston - Liverpool, and one sat in the terminating platform.

Is this a regular thing? - I've not seen this before, anyone know the reason - or is it just stock positioning for the morning?

Stock positioning. That 19:30 dep is formed off 17:17 and 17:32 from Liverpool and 20:03 ex-Wigan is formed off 18:32/19:00 from Liverpool. Saves ECS moves.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

319's have had retention tanks for a long time. (Not sure if from new but definitely pre northern). I don't think the modified sprinters have retention tanks fitted at the moment either.

The Lime St - Blackpool North service is due to become a "connect service" operated by 331's and I have also heard that they are to be maintained at AN.

As with the 317/1s, the 319s were fitted with toilet tanks when new (the 317s had their tanks removed when they moved over to Hornsey apparently due to no facilities to empty them).

According to the outgoing MD, the "majority" of 331s will be at Allerton, but as accurate facts and that person rarely get mentioned in the same sentence it's difficult to know how true it really is.

 

[northwichcat]

According to the outgoing MD, the "majority" of 331s will be at Allerton, but as accurate facts and that person rarely get mentioned in the same sentence it's difficult to know how true it really is.

43 x 331s are being produced, so at least 22 x 331s would be the majority.

However, if he means majority of carriages and the 4 car ones are allocated to Allerton that could mean the majority of trains are allocated elsewhere.

 

[8J]

I've been told the plans are for 331's on the Lime St to Blackpool but not sure I'd northern connect branded. My apologies.

I'm sure the plans will be subject to change

 

[Geeves]

You would imagine there would be some interworking of 331s betweens Liverpool - Blackpool - Blackpool - Manchester Airport but like you say they wont be advertised as connect services.

Saying that I might have read it wrong but only a certain percentage of the 'Connect' route services will have the new trains on and can still be advertised as such. A 150/2 on your Chester to Leeds no doubt! Wondering if it will be Arriva TPE days all over again where you had other stock popping up besides 158s

 

[Fuzzytop]

Don't know if it's already been reported but I've just seen 333009 back in service at Leeds after a long absence

Fantastic news. I've a soft spot for that particular unit, it was the first train I ever travelled on as a child. Have a photo somewhere

 

[Starmill]

I don't think Northern has any stock with retention tanks at present (maybe 333s?) so one hopes someone remembered to include the emptying facilities in the franchise terms.

333s and 323s definitely have them. I think all of their 158s and 156s have them(?) and the 319s arrived with them. The 150s and 156s with the new accessible toilets definitely have tanks, few enough in number as they are.

 

[Bovverboy]

According to information from Northern, the new Blackburn facility is going to be a 'Train Maintenance Depot', which could mean just about anything, I suppose. From the same source, the 319 Flex are going to be Class 769.

 

[childwallblues]

319431 has arrived at Allerton. It is in the new Northern livery.

 

[Bovverboy]

Funny performance this afternoon. The 1340 Manchester Airport to Liverpool semi-fast (1F98) got away from the Airport three minutes late and lost another two minutes to Oxford Road. It would have been approaching Ordsall Lane Junction at about 1408 but was held on approach. In the meantime the 1402 Manchester Victoria to Liverpool stopper (2F37) left Victoria a minute late and would have been approaching Ordsall Lane Junction at about 1406 and it, too, was held on approach. However at 1408 it was given a clear signal, ahead of 1F98. I can only think that this was an error, since there was nothing that 2F37 needed to be out of the way of.
At Earlestown 2F37 was diverted into platform 5 (i.e. the Warrington-bound platform) in order to let the semi-fast pass. I presume that the stopper would have then been sent down the Warrington line as far as the crossover, then back through platform 3, since any other manoeuvre wouldn't have made particularly good sense. 1F98 reached Liverpool at 1457, 14 minutes behind schedule (compared to the working time), and 2F37 at 1509 (5 minutes behind).
The above information has been obtained from 'Realtime Trains', I did not witness any of the above happening, nor can I say which units were involved, not that such details would be relevant, really.