Northern rolling stock changes post electrification

[sprinterguy]

There's a 17:27 XC Manchester to Leamington Spa via Birmingham service
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C73035/2016/08/01/advanced

I'm not sure why it goes to and terminates at Leamington Spa after Birmingham but I doubt that's anything to do with XC not getting the paths they want because of Northern!

It doesn't normally terminate at Leamington Spa. Usually it runs through to Bournemouth, but is being curtailed at Leamington Spa this week due to the engineering works taking place around Banbury.

 

[northwichcat]

Yes, I was a bit quick to say there wasn't a 1727 XC, there obviously is, but it goes via Crewe instead of Stoke. The reason for this, I suggest, is as given above.

The franchise service level (set by DfT) requires XC to send some services via Wilmslow at peak times. I can think of two reasons why they might do that:
1. To prevent Wilmslow passengers from crowding the ATW South Wales services too much.
2. To allow sufficient paths for other operators via Stoke.

I said earlier the Intercity operators get first choice of paths and then local operators had to fit their services in the available paths. XC wouldn't have submitted a request to the ORR for a 17:27 path via Stoke if DfT requires them to run a service around that time via Wilmslow. However, Northern will have had to fit their Crewe stoppers around that XC service.

 

[Domh245]

How expensive the modification would prove would probably depend on what happened to all the redundant TSOs. If the answer to that one is, they would be thrown away, yes, I suppose it would be an expensive modification.

The answer as to how expensive the modification will be is very, and it's not because of a sudden surplus of TSOs. As mentioned previously on this forum, the TSO (I think I've also heard it referred to as an ATS, auxiliary trailer standard) of a 319 contains a lot of equipment that would need to be rehomed on the other 3 cars if you wanted to remove it from the train, and that doesn't come cheap.

 

[northwichcat]

The answer as to how expensive the modification will be is very, and it's not because of a sudden surplus of TSOs. As mentioned previously on this forum, the TSO (I think I've also heard it referred to as an ATS, auxiliary trailer standard) of a 319 contains a lot of equipment that would need to be rehomed on the other 3 cars if you wanted to remove it from the train, and that doesn't come cheap.

Porterbrook also proposed re-engineering the 3 car trains to accelerate faster and the option of fitting corridor connectors to the train ends, which would probably have been used a lot considering a 3 car 319 would be around 10m shorter than a 3 car 323.

 

[Greybeard33]

All my calculations have assumed that all of Stockport-Stoke is double track, with no passing places, and, indeed, there are no scheduled overtaking manoeuvres. Whether a stopper could be sidelined at Macc in order to be overtaken by a late-running express, I don't know, I haven't checked it out. I know there is a third platform at Macc, but it doesn't appear to get a great deal of use, other than in respect of terminating trains. Oddly, the third platform is not acknowledged on the National Rail station plan.

It is not especially unusual for a northbound Northern stopper to be looped in Platform 3 at Macclesfield so that a VTWC or XC service can overtake.

One scenario is that the overtaking train is one of those that would normally precede the stopper from Stoke, but was running so late that the stopper was allowed to leave Stoke ahead of it.

The other scenario is that the stopper is held back at Stoke so that a late-running express can depart ahead of it. Then the following XC service catches up the stopper by Macc.

Clearly the recess delay to the stopper is less if the overtaking express is one of those that does not itself stop at Macclesfield.

 

[Bovverboy]

Of the four 319s that sit at Allerton during the day, is 319379 still one of them? When I have been checking for its whereabouts over the past few months, it always seems to be out of service.

319379 was on the 2220 Lime Street to Victoria last night (1/8). So I reckon it should be departing Lime Street for South Parkway just about now.

 

[notlob.divad]

Been away for a couple of weeks. What is the current situation with respect to the extra cascaded units moving from Thameslink. When I left they where apparently at Hornsey? getting their shoe gear removed. Are they now in Northern land and are they able to enter service / head off for refurbishment?

 

[childwallblues]

Been away for a couple of weeks. What is the current situation with respect to the extra cascaded units moving from Thameslink. When I left they where apparently at Hornsey? getting their shoe gear removed. Are they now in Northern land and are they able to enter service / head off for refurbishment?

No - four are reported to have moved to Wolverton.

 

[northwichcat]

The Northern 323s are to go undergo C6 exams starting in December 2017: https://www.porterbrook.co.uk/rolling-stock/links/6yearplan.pdf So that probably explains why Northern are going to temporarily replace 323s on the Glossop route with 319s from next December.

 

[Bovverboy]

The Northern 323s are to go undergo C6 exams starting in December 2017: https://www.porterbrook.co.uk/rolling-stock/links/6yearplan.pdf So that probably explains why Northern are going to temporarily replace 323s on the Glossop route with 319s from next December.

So when do the 323s go to London Midland? Or has that plan gone by the board now.

 

[Prestige15]

So when do the 323s go to London Midland? Or has that plan gone by the board now.

Apparently when the 331's come

 

[northwichcat]

So when do the 323s go to London Midland? Or has that plan gone by the board now.

The Northern 323s are not confirmed as going to LM. It was an option DfT looked at almost 10 years ago and Porterbrook wanted to resurrect but neither LM or DfT have confirmed the 323s will go that way once they get released by Northern on 1st January 2019. With Anglia releasing a whole load of modern EMUs which will presumably be available to LM bidders Porterbrook might have shot themselves in the foot!

 

[DJH1971]

Will these additional 319's be based at Allerton like the others?

 

[notlob.divad]

Will these additional 319's be based at Allerton like the others?

I think that is the plan. It would certainly make sense to have a standard fleet out of a base.

 

[DJH1971]

I think that is the plan. It would certainly make sense to have a standard fleet out of a base.

And also to work on the Liverpool-Manchester and Wigan/Preston, as well as future Blackpool and Manchester-Preston/Blackpool services?

Just to recap, any idea which new 319's are coming up here?

 

[notlob.divad]

Didn't realise this thread existed. Unit numbers are 319004/005/218/219/431/442/448/456.

They move go to Northern this month.

From upthread

 

[Class 170101]

The 323s are younger than the 321s though.

Also 323s are ideal for 3 and 6 car formations as used on most Birmingham Centro services as where as 8 car formations of pairs of 321s doesn't fit some of the platforms (particularly Cross City).

 

[northwichcat]

The 323s are younger than the 321s though.

Also 323s are ideal for 3 and 6 car formations as used on most Birmingham Centro services as where as 8 car formations of pairs of 321s doesn't fit some of the platforms (particularly Cross City).

Who said 321s going to LM? What about the 360s?

 

[childwallblues]

The 360/2 currently working on Heathrow connect are owned by BAA and are five car trains. Hard to see where they will go.

 

[northwichcat]

The 360/2 currently working on Heathrow connect are owned by BAA and are five car trains. Hard to see where they will go.

But the ones Anglia are releasing are 4 car ones and very similar to the 350s in the LM fleet. How easy would it be to reform electric Desiros in to 3 and 5 car sets with 3 car sets for Birmingham commuter and 5 car sets for WCML? Or failing that inserting a 350 in to a 360 to create a permanent 8 car set?

 

[F Great Eastern]

If you want some 321s, there are 94 of them going spare in the near future!

Maybe you will get a good deal on them, since they're most likely to end up in the scrapyard otherwise.

 

[northwichcat]

If you want some 321s, there are 94 of them going spare in the near future!

Maybe you will get a good deal on them, since they're most likely to end up in the scrapyard otherwise.

Northern don't need any 321s - they are offloading their Yorkshire 321s and 322s. I doubt the Porterbrook 319s in the North West can be replaced by Eversholt 321s unless another operator expresses an interest in taking on most/all of the 319s.

 

[pjm0512]

The 323s are younger than the 321s though.

Also 323s are ideal for 3 and 6 car formations as used on most Birmingham Centro services as where as 8 car formations of pairs of 321s doesn't fit some of the platforms (particularly Cross City).

And to be honest as the 323s age, it makes sense to group them together for maintenance and reliability reasons, rather than Northern having what's really a micro fleet.

 

[Class 170101]

Who said 321s going to LM? What about the 360s?

Just a general comment about the suitability of units for LM specifically around Birmingham.

 

[DJH1971]

The 319 failures are still continuing.

Today's 16:16 LIV-MIA service is a 156
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The 319 failures are still continuing.

Today's 16:16 LIV-MIA service is a 156

 

[AM9]

The 319 failures are still continuing.

Today's 16:16 LIV-MIA service is a 156
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The 319 failures are still continuing.

Today's 16:16 LIV-MIA service is a 156

Despite mentioning it twice in this post, it's still only one more failure.

 

[DJH1971]

Despite mentioning it twice in this post, it's still only one more failure.

Had signal coverage problem whilst sending on my mobile.

Any news on the other 8 319's supposedly coming to Northern?

 

[AM9]

Had signal coverage problem whilst sending on my mobile.

Any news on the other 8 319's supposedly coming to Northern?

Been there many times. Usually get opportunity to go straight back in and delete one of them.

 

[northwichcat]

Any news on the other 8 319's supposedly coming to Northern?

Have Northern got 24 now? There's supposed to be another 12 coming with 5 only on a short term lease until early 2020 which will be returned (alongside the 321s and 322s) when the last batch of 331s enter service.

 

[Mordac]

Have Northern got 24 now? There's supposed to be another 12 coming with 5 only on a short term lease until early 2020 which will be returned (alongside the 321s and 322s) when the last batch of 331s enter service.

There's four at Wolverton being refurbished, having transferred from Thameslink a couple of weeks ago. The other 8 should follow soon. Class 377/5 should know more.