Northern rolling stock changes post electrification

[Class 170101]

Does anyone know if the 319s will be working anymore diagrams soon and if so which diagrams?

It's been suggested that there will not be any more until the May timetable change, whereupon all services which remain within the electrified lines will go over to them.

I thought it was mentioned further up thread that some more 319s would enter service in mid April?

 

[387star]

319361-369/71-72/74-80/82/86 has been noted elsewhere, namely all the 3s minus 370/73/81/83/84/85.

Seems to add up correctly, with everything bar 375-378 either with Northern in some form or other, or at Wolverton.[/QUOTE]

Thanks so 380 must be instead of 383 which is a typo to make twenty

 

[Loop & Link]

1116 Airport and back gone over to a 319 today.

 

[Class377/5]

383 has gone off lease. Latest news is Northern is getting even more 319s.

 

[387star]

383 has gone off lease. Latest news is Northern is getting even more 319s.

Will probably get all the /3s there are only six /3s left out at the moment

Surprising they didn't get the /2s given their arguably better seating

 

[158722]

383 has gone off lease. Latest news is Northern is getting even more 319s.

For use on what?!

12 from the initial 14 for Liverpool/Manchester/Warrington/Wigan.
4 from the extra 6 for Liverpool SP/Preston (assuming Blackpools cut back)
16 from 20, which seems ok whilst they are still going through Wolverton.

What else can they be used on or is it just 'getting ahead' with overhauls prior to Manchester-Bolton-Preston-Blackpool going live?

 

[DJH1971]

383 has gone off lease. Latest news is Northern is getting even more 319s.

On top of the 20 already earmarked?

 

[Jonny]

For use on what?!

12 from the initial 14 for Liverpool/Manchester/Warrington/Wigan.
4 from the extra 6 for Liverpool SP/Preston (assuming Blackpools cut back)
16 from 20, which seems ok whilst they are still going through Wolverton.

What else can they be used on or is it just 'getting ahead' with overhauls prior to Manchester-Bolton-Preston-Blackpool going live?

Local services from Piccadilly out to Macc/Stoke and Alderley Edge/Crewe (which sometimes end up as diesels under the wires for their whole journey) perhaps?

 

[northwichcat]

Local services from Piccadilly out to Macc/Stoke and Alderley Edge/Crewe (which sometimes end up as diesels under the wires for their whole journey) perhaps?

DMUs never go to Stoke, all Stoke services must be worked by 323s. If a 323 isn't available then the service is cancelled or a unit swap is arranged so a replacement DMU goes on an Airport stopper or an Alderley Edge service.

There's 1 diesel working very first thing in the morning which does Macclesfield-Piccadilly and a few Hazel Grove-Manchester services (in both direction) but some of those are interworked with the Chester-Stockport only services.

 

[Cotty]

Realtime Trains shows an STP for tomorrow (9th of April) leaving Wolverton Centre Sidings at 1533 and arriving at Allerton Depot at 1928 - (FRGT - Class 319).

 

[Jonny]

DMUs never go to Stoke, all Stoke services must be worked by 323s. If a 323 isn't available then the service is cancelled or a unit swap is arranged so a replacement DMU goes on an Airport stopper or an Alderley Edge service.

There's 1 diesel working very first thing in the morning which does Macclesfield-Piccadilly and a few Hazel Grove-Manchester services (in both direction) but some of those are interworked with the Chester-Stockport only services.

Any of which (Hazel Grove (HAZ)-Manchester, Airport Stoppers and Alderley Edge services) would be candidates for the use of a Class 319 subject to the usual (crew availability etc.).

Services to/from HAZ would not be interworkable with non-electrified lines though, but then there would be a massive conflict if the trains need to cross most of the through lines at Stockport in order to interwork HAZ services with the Mid-Cheshire line.

 

[158722]

DMUs never go to Stoke, all Stoke services must be worked by 323s. If a 323 isn't available then the service is cancelled or a unit swap is arranged so a replacement DMU goes on an Airport stopper or an Alderley Edge service.

There's 1 diesel working very first thing in the morning which does Macclesfield-Piccadilly and a few Hazel Grove-Manchester services (in both direction) but some of those are interworked with the Chester-Stockport only services.

Are there less limitations as regards using 319s vice 323s on the Airport stoppers, Alderley Edge and Crewe? I'm thinking along the lines of 6/7 323s to LM to replace the 350s on Walsall-Wolves, which in turn take over the 321 turns out of Euston. Possibly neater solution than LM taking on 7 319s vice the 321s.

 

[Old Hill Bank]

Are there less limitations as regards using 319s vice 323s on the Airport stoppers, Alderley Edge and Crewe? I'm thinking along the lines of 6/7 323s to LM to replace the 350s on Walsall-Wolves, which in turn take over the 321 turns out of Euston. Possibly neater solution than LM taking on 7 319s vice the 321s.

Don't forget LM will need EMUs for Chase Line at some point, releasing some Northern 323s for that may be a neat solution.

 

[A0]

Are there less limitations as regards using 319s vice 323s on the Airport stoppers, Alderley Edge and Crewe? I'm thinking along the lines of 6/7 323s to LM to replace the 350s on Walsall-Wolves, which in turn take over the 321 turns out of Euston. Possibly neater solution than LM taking on 7 319s vice the 321s.

Aren't the 323s preferred (particularly for the Stoke service) because of their better acceleration not causing problems with the other traffic?

And with Stoke, I *think* (though happy to be corrected) that the bay platform isn't long enough for a 4 car unit?

 

[northwichcat]

Services to/from HAZ would not be interworkable with non-electrified lines though, but then there would be a massive conflict if the trains need to cross most of the through lines at Stockport in order to interwork HAZ services with the Mid-Cheshire line.

Currently the unit off the 16:58 Piccadilly-Hazel Grove does an ECS to Stockport platform 1 and then works the 17:58 Stockport-Chester.

The only alternative is the DMU does an ECS from Newton Heath to Stockport via Denton instead (with an EMU running Piccadilly-Hazel Grove) but that would mean an extra EMU is utilised while a DMU is sat spare. That'll change in December 2017 when all Mid-Cheshire services will be able to run to Piccadilly.
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Aren't the 323s preferred (particularly for the Stoke service) because of their better acceleration not causing problems with the other traffic?

And with Stoke, I *think* (though happy to be corrected) that the bay platform isn't long enough for a 4 car unit?

Stoke and Glossop/Hadfield services must all be 323 operated, otherwise the services would have to miss out calls/terminate short or would hold up other operator's services.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm thinking along the lines of 6/7 323s to LM to replace the 350s on Walsall-Wolves, which in turn take over the 321 turns out of Euston. Possibly neater solution than LM taking on 7 319s vice the 321s.

Or maybe LM release 2 x 350s to TPE to eliminate 185 workings on Scottish services?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Are there less limitations as regards using 319s vice 323s on the Airport stoppers, Alderley Edge and Crewe? I'm thinking along the lines of 6/7 323s to LM to replace the 350s on Walsall-Wolves, which in turn take over the 321 turns out of Euston. Possibly neater solution than LM taking on 7 319s vice the 321s.

Don't forget LM will need EMUs for Chase Line at some point, releasing some Northern 323s for that may be a neat solution.

Hey! Hands off our 323s!

 

[AM9]

Hey! Hands off our 323s!

Beware, when they get to LM somebody will put a deposit on (in) them!

 

[Old Hill Bank]

Hey! Hands off our 323s!

When the LM franchise was let we were getting all of the 323s and Northern were getting new build, how things change. Guessing what might happen next is such fun!!!!

 

[northwichcat]

When the LM franchise was let we were getting all of the 323s and Northern were getting new build, how things change. Guessing what might happen next is such fun!!!!

When the LM franchise was let they were expected to get class 150 replacements (which came in the form of 172s) and class 321 replacements (which came in the form of 350/2s.)

It was later when DfT did a rolling stock strategy they decided Northern being let on a no growth basis was wrong and they proposed cascades of DMUs to Northern and FGW, new EMUs for Northern (with 323s and 321s being released) and new DMUs for Northern, FGW and TPE. However, only the cascades of the old LM/LO 150s went ahead.

The 323s to LM wasn't written in to the LM franchise agreement anymore than new DMUs or EMUs for Northern, which allowed DfT to easily change their minds.

 

[caliburn53]

A staff member at Earlestown told me the the electrics won't be using our station until at least December

 

[Old Hill Bank]

When the LM franchise was let they were expected to get class 150 replacements (which came in the form of 172s) and class 321 replacements (which came in the form of 350/2s.)

It was later when DfT did a rolling stock strategy they decided Northern being let on a new grow basis was wrong and they proposed cascades of DMUs to Northern and FGW, new EMUs for Northern (with 323s and 321s being released) and new DMUs for Northern, FGW and TPE. However, only the cascades of the old LM/LO 150s went ahead.

The 323s to LM wasn't written in to the LM franchise agreement anymore than new DMUs or EMUs for Northern, which allowed DfT to easily change their minds.

You are quite right and it's a mess, there seems to be no sensible strategy in place. We all know whats' best for our own routes and what we would like in the way of rolling stock but the world dont work like that. The sixty nine class 172 vehicles provided for the Birmingham Snow Hill services were not sufficient, the figure should have been around eighty five so we all have our problems.

ps If you still want the 172s the MPC is currently abysmal with major short forming and cancellations every weekday, not much different to the story we get from up north.

 

[northwichcat]

The sixty nine class 172 vehicles provided for the Birmingham Snow Hill services were not sufficient, the figure should have been around eighty five so we all have our problems.

There was of-course an add-on option for more 172 carriages, like there were for 185 carriages but neither option went ahead and we were left with a DMU shortage.

 

[A0]

Or maybe LM release 2 x 350s to TPE to eliminate 185 workings on Scottish services?

Which would help LM how exactly?

They need the 350s to provide their existing services - what are you suggesting should be used in their place?

 

[northwichcat]

Which would help LM how exactly?

They need the 350s to provide their existing services - what are you suggesting should be used in their place?

The post I was replying to said "I'm thinking along the lines of 6/7 323s to LM to replace the 350s on Walsall-Wolves" so it was suggesting 350s would be freed up by introducing 323s cascaded from Northern and I then suggested in that scanerio a couple of those 350s could then go to TPE.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

When the LM franchise was let we were getting all of the 323s and Northern were getting new build..... how things change.

Is it grammatically correct to use "Northern" and "new build" in the same sentence....
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Aren't the 323s preferred (particularly for the Stoke service) because of their better acceleration not causing problems with the other traffic?

They most certainly do add to the general ambiance of niceness when passing through Prestbury station...

 

[DJH1971]

A staff member at Earlestown told me the the electrics won't be using our station until at least December

Thought the blockade at Manchester Victoria was to get it ready for the May timetable?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A staff member at Earlestown told me the the electrics won't be using our station until at least December

Thought the purpose of the blockade at Manchester Victoria was to get it ready for the May timetable?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

And with Stoke, I *think* (though happy to be corrected) that the bay platform isn't long enough for a 4 car unit?

Quail says Stoke P3 is 4-car (20m).

 

[Loop & Link]

Thought the blockade at Manchester Victoria was to get it ready for the May timetable?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Thought the purpose of the blockade at Manchester Victoria was to get it ready for the May timetable?

Well the documentation I've seen seems to certainly suggest 319's on Man Vic and Wigan services from May.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

They need the 350s to provide their existing services - what are you suggesting should be used in their place?

LM has already got new 350/3s which among other things are supposed to free up 323s for the Bromsgrove service.
So they will have to juggle existing stock for that.

 

[northwichcat]

So, over the next couple of years LM will require 2 extra EMUs for Bromsgrove, 4 for Chase valley and 1 or 2 for Coventry/Nuneaton, hence 7 or 8 units. I note that Northern require 9x 323s to cover Manchester-Alderley Edge-Crewe including the Airport stoppers, whilst 7x are required to cover the Stoke and Hadfield turns.

Note that Northern are required to introduce an additional hourly Manchester-Macclesfield service by December 2017 which will probably be 2 extra diagrams.

DfT have said to bidders of the next Northern franchise to assume they can take on all the trains Northern Rail currently have minus one class 153 which will be transferred to EMT, as well as the option of subleasing some 185s from TPE for the some of the lines taken over from TPE.

It's possible some bidders have already started their bids on the basis of keeping all 17 x 323s. Maybe one or two will have proposed releasing the 9 x 323s you mention being used on Alderley Edge/Crewe/Airport services on to Preston services allowing some 6 car workings?

Although that doesn't rule out Northern subleasing trains to another operator if they are returned by April 2015, like when FNW subleased 2 x 158s between when the TPE franchise started and the new Northern Rail franchise started.

I thought about whether Porterbrook want to give their 323s overhauls while there are EMUs sat around spare. It seems the LM 323s are due their C4 exams this year and next but no 323s are due C6 exams in the near future: http://www.porterbrook.co.uk/downloads/6YearPlan.pdf