Northern rolling stock changes post electrification

[northwichcat]

If your talking new rolling stock then maybe 3car would be good but its hardly a good solution. Mersey rail struggles with 3 car services and 6 car is OTT, actually leaving it as 4 cars is probably sensible, potentially you might need more capacity but this can be done by adding extra trains in.

So you're saying because a length longer than 3 cars and shorter than 6 is ideal for Merseyrail*, the same applies for Northern?!

Currently at Salford Crescent in the evening a 4 car train from Victoria to Blackpool departs at 17:30, then a 4 car train from the Airport to Southport departs at 17:33, then a 4 car train from Buxton to Blackpool at 17:38. Why would you add in more services opposed to longer trains? Alternatively, wouldn't running 2 x 4 car trains because there's just too many passengers for 4 car be more OTT than 6 cars on Merseyrail because there's just too many passengers for 3 car?

* Apart from you'd have 4/5 car formations instead of 6 car formations when special events are on because Merseyrail are limited to 6 x 20m carriage formations at the city centre stations.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

It seems the 319s won't be out on Monday after all. Apparently there is an issue with a bridge at Rainhill.

 

[martynbristow]

So you're saying because a length longer than 3 cars and shorter than 6 is ideal for Merseyrail*, the same applies for Northern?!

Currently at Salford Crescent in the evening a 4 car train from Victoria to Blackpool departs at 17:30, then a 4 car train from the Airport to Southport departs at 17:33, then a 4 car train from Buxton to Blackpool at 17:38. Why would you add in more services opposed to longer trains? Alternatively, wouldn't running 2 x 4 car trains because there's just too many passengers for 4 car be more OTT than 6 cars on Merseyrail because there's just too many passengers for 3 car?

* Apart from you'd have 4/5 car formations instead of 6 car formations when special events are on because Merseyrail are limited to 6 x 20m carriage formations at the city centre stations.

YES its simple Mathematics! 3 or 6, or all of 4! You end up with 3 car trains rammed and 6 cars partly filled! I've seen it everywhere i've been, people will always get on where they were stood, generally by the entrance and under the canopy.
The longer the train the further people can't be bothered walking.

But your idea of making them all 2x3 car you will end up with a massive cost and loads of trains that are too short.

If the issue is with Salford Cresent or Bolton, give them a dedicated shuttle to relieve the congestion, running empty coaches to Blackpool and Southport isn't going to help at all.

 

[Class377/5]

YES its simple Mathematics! 3 or 6, or all of 4! You end up with 3 car trains rammed and 6 cars partly filled! I've seen it everywhere i've been, people will always get on where they were stood, generally by the entrance and under the canopy.
The longer the train the further people can't be bothered walking.

But your idea of making them all 2x3 car you will end up with a massive cost and loads of trains that are too short.

If the issue is with Salford Cresent or Bolton, give them a dedicated shuttle to relieve the congestion, running empty coaches to Blackpool and Southport isn't going to help at all.

Not quite so simple when your comparing a 23m 6 car with a 20m 8 car. Its not just the amount of carriages that people need to remember but the length of the train as a whole.

 

[northwichcat]

martynbristow - You really need to understand the Bolton corridor is in no way like Merseyrail. Northern have to fight with other operators for paths out of Manchester and at peak times there is really no scope for more services through Salford Crescent meaning your shuttle idea between Bolton and Manchester is a non-starter. I take it you rarely travel on the line considering you don't seem to be aware of the number of Manchester commuters from places beyond Bolton station.

I've never said make all Bolton services 2 x 3 car trains. However, as a number of services ideally need more than the current 4 they get, 2 x 3 car allows for growth without going from 4 car to 8 car overnight - the only other option.

 

[daniel3982]

Would the 319s fit on Merseyrail?

 

[WatcherZero]

Wouldn't say shuttle was a non starter, A shuttle is put on each year to cope with extra passenger demand in November/December. However there is unlikely to be a path available for a shuttle anymore going forward with extra Blackburn service, extra Stalybridge service specified (though theoretically both requirements could be met with a single service) and return of Scottish services.

 

[northwichcat]

Would the 319s fit on Merseyrail?

No. Merseyrail's limited to 6 x 20m, which is why the 508s were shortened to 3 cars.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Wouldn't say shuttle was a non starter, A shuttle is put on each year to cope with extra passenger demand in November/December. However there is unlikely to be a path available for a shuttle anymore going forward with extra Blackburn service, extra Stalybridge service specified (though theoretically both requirements could be met with a single service) and return of Scottish services.

I was meaning weekday peak times, even though the pre-Christmas Saturday services can be busier then weekday peak services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No. Merseyrail's limited to 6 x 20m, which is why the 508s were shortened to 3 cars.

6 is too many for the great majority of Merseyrail trains, but 3 often too few - so there is an argument to go the same way as LO and use 4-car trains all day with increased peak frequency, possibly increasing to 5 as per LO if demand increases.

That said, 319s are irrelevant as AIUI Mk3-derived EMUs won't fit the tunnels; the PEP derived EMUs are noticeably smaller (look at the odd coach in a 455 set).

Neil

 

[northwichcat]

6 is too many for the great majority of Merseyrail trains, but 3 often too few - so there is an argument to go the same way as LO and use 4-car trains all day with increased peak frequency, possibly increasing to 5 as per LO if demand increases.

Then what would you do for special events like the Grand National and the Southport Air Show (or just ordinary Premier League games) when Merseyrail can fill up all 6 cars and leave people behind on the platform?

 

[RobShipway]

Well, South West Trains are getting Class 707 Desiro fleet which I believe wil be used on routes that Class 455 currently use, so the class 597/508 coaches from the 2017 could get the coaches back to strengthen the Merseyrail services. However, I know that these would not be available until 2017.

The other way I can see Merseyrail getting trains, is for them to have some of the refurbished Vivarail refurbished Underground trains, but adapted to use 3rd rail rather than be diesel powered.

The only other alternative that I can see is for Merseyrail to get the Class 313's from Southern, that will hopefully in the future be replaced by pointing class 377's back on these services once the Class 700's have started to be delivered for Thameslink.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Then what would you do for special events like the Grand National and the Southport Air Show (or just ordinary Premier League games) when Merseyrail can fill up all 6 cars and leave people behind on the platform?

Refer to the bit about "increased peak frequencies".

Neil

 

[swt_passenger]

Well, South West Trains are getting Class 707 Desiro fleet which I believe wil be used on routes that Class 455 currently use...

However the 707 Desiro City have not been announced as replacements for anything, they are for the 10 car Windsor side services so that the 458/5s can be put back on other uses such as Reading, which will release 450s for other mainline service strengthening and increased frequencies.

The 455 fleet re-tractioning would not be going ahead if they were to be replaced in only three years time.

 

[Class377/5]

However the 707 Desiro City have not been announced as replacements for anything, they are for the 10 car Windsor side services so that the 458/5s can be put back on other uses such as Reading, which will release 450s for other mainline service strengthening and increased frequencies.

The 455 fleet re-tractioning would not be going ahead if they were to be replaced in only three years time.

Indeed. The 455 replacement is expect to occur in the mid 2020s.

 

[Class 170101]

It seems the 319s won't be out on Monday after all. Apparently there is an issue with a bridge at Rainhill.

Any ideas what sort of issue? After all the 319s have already passed this bridge on test.

 

[DJH1971]

Any ideas what sort of issue? After all the 319s have already passed this bridge on test.

Although I have mentioned this on the Manchester - Liverpool Electrification thread, they are now apparently commencing service next Thursday (5th March).

 

[martynbristow]

6 is too many for the great majority of Merseyrail trains, but 3 often too few - so there is an argument to go the same way as LO and use 4-car trains all day with increased peak frequency, possibly increasing to 5 as per LO if demand increases.

That said, 319s are irrelevant as AIUI Mk3-derived EMUs won't fit the tunnels; the PEP derived EMUs are noticeably smaller (look at the odd coach in a 455 set).

Neil

Exactly my point! Your suggesting spending huge sums modifying the 319's to cause a whole different problem. If you make 6car trains you end up with carriages rocking about everywhere empty.
If paths are a problem ... get a lighter, burn the timetable and start from scratch.
Anyway Merseyrail has lots of similarities to the Bolton corridor if you forget the trains. Dominant flows being commuters and shoppers.
Look at Merseyrails 6car formations, they're all bunched together and its a one hit wonder, they can't get back to run another.
Maybe this old district line stock could be your lovely 6car trains.

And 319's aren't being used on the Bolton Corridor until 2017 basically late 2017 if delays happened again. So if the 319's have 10 years expected life they're only going to do 8 years along it before they need a redo.

 

[northwichcat]

Anyway Merseyrail has lots of similarities to the Bolton corridor if you forget the trains. Dominant flows being commuters and shoppers.

One huge difference is Merseyrail have exclusive use of lines while TPE, EMT, ATW and Virgin all want westbound services out of Manchester. Northern get the left over paths for stoppers as Intercity and Regional services get priority for paths. A clockwork 15 minute timetable is extremely easy for Merseyrail to implement on most lines but practically impossible for Northern to implement on most lines.

Maybe this old district line stock could be your lovely 6car trains.

Slight problem - no pantograph! Also they have 18m carriages and stations like Salford Crescent can take 6 car formations of trains with 23.8m carriages, so again you're forgetting about different carriage lengths.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Any ideas what sort of issue? After all the 319s have already passed this bridge on test.

Not exactly sure, but I think it is to do with access to the overhead wires from a footbridge.

 

[Techniquest]

Indeed. The 455 replacement is expect to occur in the mid 2020s.

I'm glad you mentioned that, as I was also of the belief (for some reason!) that 455s were getting booted off SWT territory in 2017/2018. Gives me more time to get them in the book at least *wipes forehead*

As for Northern's 319s, excellent news! Maybe I'll be popping up there a week tomorrow and hopping into the motor coach on a 319 out of Lime Street at last!

 

[physics34]

I'm glad you mentioned that, as I was also of the belief (for some reason!) that 455s were getting booted off SWT territory in 2017/2018. Gives me more time to get them in the book at least *wipes forehead*

As for Northern's 319s, excellent news! Maybe I'll be popping up there a week tomorrow and hopping into the motor coach on a 319 out of Lime Street at last!

not all of them i dont believe??

 

[Class377/5]

I'm glad you mentioned that, as I was also of the belief (for some reason!) that 455s were getting booted off SWT territory in 2017/2018. Gives me more time to get them in the book at least *wipes forehead*

As for Northern's 319s, excellent news! Maybe I'll be popping up there a week tomorrow and hopping into the motor coach on a 319 out of Lime Street at last!

2017 Southern/GTR are reducing the use of 455s (not withdrawn as many assumed). SWT 455s are likely be replaced by Crossrail 2 stock.

 

[Techniquest]

Thanks for the gen, might make more London area trips worth considering in 2016.

 

[Viscount702]

It seems the DfT is thinking of giving Northern all the 319s along with the 350/4 released in the next franchise.

If this did happen when would

1.All 319s be with Northern and

2. when would the 350's be transferred.

It has been assumed that the 350s would be used to Blackpool and Windermere (post 2017) but will TPE be in a position to release them early enough to Northern so the later can meet their commitments and what would TPE have instead.

 

[WatcherZero]

Tender says they will be released September 2017, so likely on completion of Blackpool Electrification.

 

[Viscount702]

Tender says they will be released September 2017, so likely on completion of Blackpool Electrification.

Which tender and Section if you could please Watcher as I have clearly missed it.

It still means TPE will need some alternative stock by 2017 but at present we seem to have no idea what.

442's have mentioned being loco hauled but will they be available in time.

Also would loco hauled Mk4s be available by then or not.

 

[WatcherZero]

Sorry, remembered wrong its Sep 2018

5.4.2.7 The Department requires a Franchisee who will:
i. Lease the current franchisee’s fleet of 10 4-car Class 350 EMUs from the Start
Date until at least 19 September 2018;

ii. Sub-lease rolling stock to the Northern franchisee from the Start Date until the
December 2017 timetable change in accordance with the arrangements set out
in Schedule 6.2 of the Franchise Agreement; and

and

5.4.2.24 Only the following rolling stock may be proposed by Bidders for inclusion within
the TPE Train Fleet:

i. The class 185 and class 350 multiple units that are currently comprised within
the TPE Train Fleet (subject to the requirement to sub-lease Class 185 units to
the Northern Franchise for an initial period until December 2017);

Northern tender specifies that 'regional rolling stock' (with the high spec of passenger comfort) must be supplied as soon as practicable after franchise start and no later than 1st January 2020, and on specific stock.

5.4.2.8 The Department requires a Franchisee who will:

iii. Sub-lease rolling stock from the TPE franchisee from the Start Date until the
December 2017 timetable change in accordance with the arrangements set out
in Schedule 6.2 of the Franchise Agreement;

The suggestion that the Government will force 350 from TPE to Northern when the lease is up comes from Tony Miles reporting of a proto national rolling stock plan from Government.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Will Northern be able to make use of all 319s? That's 86 trainsets. Plus 10 350/4s.

Not to say that I'd be complaining, mind, but the point is that although a good number of lines are being electrified, would that 96 sets not be overkill even for replacing all diesel run services on those routes.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The suggestion that the Government will force 350 from TPE to Northern when the lease is up comes from Tony Miles reporting of a proto national rolling stock plan from Government.

What would we likely see for TPE instead?

IEPs for the NW-Scotland service maybe? I'd eat my hat...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Northern tender specifies that 'regional rolling stock' (with the high spec of passenger comfort) must be supplied as soon as practicable after franchise start and no later than 1st January 2020, and on specific stock.

Only for "Northern Regional" services, which if you read into it are the former North West Express service groups.

Neil

 

[adsteamfan]

Quote:
5.4.2.7 The Department requires a Franchisee who will:
i. Lease the current franchisee’s fleet of 10 4-car Class 350 EMUs from the Start Date until at least 19 September 2018;

ii. Sub-lease rolling stock to the Northern franchisee from the Start Date until the December 2017 timetable change in accordance with the arrangements set out in Schedule 6.2 of the Franchise Agreement; and

and

5.4.2.24 Only the following rolling stock may be proposed by Bidders for inclusion within the TPE Train Fleet:

i. The class 185 and class 350 multiple units that are currently comprised within the TPE Train Fleet (subject to the requirement to sub-lease Class 185 units to the Northern Franchise for an initial period until December 2017);

Therefore it is the Class 185 units being sub-leased to Northern until Dec 2017 TT change and the Class 350 units having to be leased by the new TPE Franchisee until at least 19 Sept 2018 with no mention of them being sub-leased to Northern.