Northern rolling stock changes post electrification

[AM9]

I can't think where Northern will use 86x319s unless they replace the 323s and other EMUs at the same time (not a bad idea mind - one fleet throughout).

That will just fire up the North vs South 'debate' again.

 

[northwichcat]

Something back on topic, it seems the DfT is thinking of giving Northern all the 319s along with the 350/4 released in the next franchise.

I can't think where Northern will use 86x319s unless they replace the 323s and other EMUs at the same time (not a bad idea mind - one fleet throughout).

Maybe refit the 333s to be like the 332s and give them to TPE to use mainly on TPE semi-fast services with the rest of North TPE and Scottish services getting new Intercity stock?

Alternatively go ahead with the idea of making some 319s 3 car with the intention of running them doubled up, allowing another operator to take on the spare cars for lengthening trains?

Interesting idea to give Northern the 350/4s though, while replacing 323s with 319s may have caused issues I would have thought it would have been easier to keep the 323s where they are.

 

[WatcherZero]

Yeah cant really see the advantage in Northern having the 350's over a stock swap with LM, unless they would be used and fitted out for longer distance services like Airport Blackpool/Barrow/Windermere compared to 319.

Does continue to play into TPE having a brand new unified fleet ordered though, particularly if the 387 become unavailable or electrification delayed meaning 387 need a home earlier than needed for TPE.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....Alternatively go ahead with the idea of making some 319s 3 car with the intention of running them doubled up, allowing another operator to take on the spare cars for lengthening trains?....

What is left of the spare cars once they have taken all the important equipment off you mean?

Pretty sure that somewhere deep in the bowels of the last 186 pages is debate about why other units would never have them added anyway (power to weight ratios, blah, blah, blah).

 

[northwichcat]

Pretty sure that somewhere deep in the bowels of the last 186 pages is debate about why other units would never have them added anyway (power to weight ratios, blah, blah, blah).

Some people have actually suggested replacing the trailer car in the 455/7s (which were originally class 508 cars built in the 70s) with redundant 319 cars. Although, Porterbrook (who came up with idea) haven't proposed doing anything with the removed cars.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Interesting idea to give Northern the 350/4s though, while replacing 323s with 319s may have caused issues I would have thought it would have been easier to keep the 323s where they are.

We are as one with what you say about keeping the Class 323 where they are. I do not just say this for the selfish reason that the Class 323 run on my local line, where they are indeed most appreciated.

 

[Bletchleyite]

We are as one with what you say about keeping the Class 323 where they are. I do not just say this for the selfish reason that the Class 323 run on my local line, where they are indeed most appreciated.

Arguably giving the 350s to LM as originally intended, then them releasing 323s to Northern, would make more sense. Though that depends what the separated West Midlands franchise ends up as.

Neil

 

[northwichcat]

Arguably giving the 350s to LM as originally intended, then them releasing 323s to Northern, would make more sense. Though that depends what the separated West Midlands franchise ends up as.

Just remembered LM will be operating 319s, so presumably the idea will be for the Northern 321/2s to go to LM.

I seem to recall the 5 car 360s will get released once Crossrail is complete, which will be an interesting set to rehome, given they are the only 5 car Desiros which work on OHEs and don't have corridor connectors.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Just remembered LM will be operating 319s, so presumably the idea will be for the Northern 321/2s to go to LM.

Why? Why not simply more 319s?

I seem to recall the 5 car 360s will get released once Crossrail is complete, which will be an interesting set to rehome, given they are the only 5 car Desiros which work on OHEs and don't have corridor connectors.

They might actually fit LM reasonably well instead of the TPE ones, as it would give them a length of set other than 4 car, thus making 5, 9 and 10 car sets possible as well as the usual 4, 8 and 12. LM don't really *need* corridor connections, they have run the 321s in multiple without them for years, though obviously they are useful.

Or if the Tring locals go onto Crossrail, and more Crossrail stock is ordered to do this rather than using 350s, they may not need them.

Neil

 

[WatcherZero]

86 319's

Actually if you take a base 50% capacity improvement and some new services/increased frequencies they probably could assimilate all of them.

 

[northwichcat]

Why? Why not simply more 319s?

Going off what Class377/5 posted before it suggests Northern would have all the 319s.

They might actually fit LM reasonably well instead of the TPE ones, as it would give them a length of set other than 4 car

I think with the relevant platform extensions they could be ideal for Birmingham-Liverpool services in 5 car formations, much better than a 350/2 with 3+2 seating but more seats than a 350/1 or 350/3.

 

[stockport1]

Going off what Class377/5 posted before it suggests Northern would have all the 319s.



I think with the relevant platform extensions they could be ideal for Birmingham-Liverpool services in 5 car formations, much better than a 350/2 with 3+2 seating but more seats than a 350/1 or 350/3.

5 cars wouldn't fit at winsford!

 

[northwichcat]

5 cars wouldn't fit at winsford!

I did say "with the relevant platform extensions" - allowing Winsford to take 5 car 360s would be easier and cheaper than allowing 8 car 350s. Alliance Rail found upgrading Winsford to take 5 car Polaris trains could be done easily but when they looked at using 6 car Pendolinos instead they decided it would be too much hassle to upgrade Winsford accordingly.

 

[Wolfie]

Maybe refit the 333s to be like the 332s and give them to TPE to use mainly on TPE semi-fast services with the rest of North TPE and Scottish services getting new Intercity stock?

Frankly I would say that you have zero chance of this happening, not least because TPE is NOT regarded as Intercity. That sort of interior would be massive overkill for the services proposed and, were it to happen, would doubtless be accompanied by commensurate fare "adjustments". The "new Intercity stock" could well be Voyagers, Meridios or Mk 4s (very possibly refitted for higher density as per the FGW Mk3s) with suitable haulage.

Alternatively go ahead with the idea of making some 319s 3 car with the intention of running them doubled up, allowing another operator to take on the spare cars for lengthening trains?

The reasons why this is a technical non-starter have been done to death on here....

Interesting idea to give Northern the 350/4s though, while replacing 323s with 319s may have caused issues I would have thought it would have been easier to keep the 323s where they are.

The 350/4s going to Northern is a damn silly idea! Yet another microfleet in the Northern inventory....

Indeed there is an arguement for withdrawing all EMUs except 319s from Northern. The creation of dedicated subfleets for specific roles through suitable refurbishment would seem a sensible way to go.

Arguably giving the 350s to LM as originally intended, then them releasing 323s to Northern, would make more sense. Though that depends what the separated West Midlands franchise ends up as.

Neil

Wouldn't happen. I don't believe for one minute that LM would releasae 323s while keeping an EMU subfleet. Surely they would get rid of the 7 319s they are getting to replace the 7 321s off to Scotrail...

 

[Bletchleyite]

much better than a 350/2 with 3+2 seating but more seats than a 350/1 or 350/3.

They are 3+2, you know? Could be refurbed and reseated, though, I guess.

Good point re Liverpool-Brum, but I think these do really need 8-car much of the time, and 10 would be too long. SDO could I suppose be used.

Neil

 

[stockport1]

Frankly I would say that you have zero chance of this happening, not least because TPE is NOT regarded as Intercity. That sort of interior would be massive overkill for the services proposed and, were it to happen, would doubtless be accompanied by commensurate fare "adjustments". The "new Intercity stock" could well be Voyagers, Meridios or Mk 4s (very possibly refitted for higher density as per the FGW Mk3s) with suitable haulage.



The reasons why this is a technical non-starter have been done to death on here....



The 350/4s going to Northern is a damn silly idea! Yet another microfleet in the Northern inventory....

Indeed there is an arguement for withdrawing all EMUs except 319s from Northern. The creation of dedicated subfleets for specific roles through suitable refurbishment would seem a sensible way to go.



Wouldn't happen. I don't believe for one minute that LM would releasae 323s while keeping an EMU subfleet. Surely they would get rid of the 7 319s they are getting to replace the 7 321s off to Scotrail...

319's -> Northern
Northern 323's -> LM
LM 321's -> Scotrail

or isn't it that easy???

 

[northwichcat]

Frankly I would say that you have zero chance of this happening, not least because TPE is NOT regarded as Intercity.

Liverpool-Newcastle and Manchester Airport-Scotland are just as much Intercity as some the Virgin North Wales services and EMT Sheffield/Nottingham-London services. The idea is for TPE to become more Intercity like with 4tph between York and Manchester only calling at Leeds and Huddersfield on the way and for all Liverpool TPE services to run Manchester-Liverpool non-stop.

It seems Tony Miles has said Intercity trains because manufacturers have been asked to propose options for 110/125mph Intercity style trains for the next TPE franchise. If you are certain there is zero chance of that happening then why not tell the manufacturers what the old man told William Porter in the film Oh, Mr Porter?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The reasons why this is a technical non-starter have been done to death on here....

...

The 350/4s going to Northern is a damn silly idea! Yet another microfleet in the Northern inventory....

Indeed there is an arguement for withdrawing all EMUs except 319s from Northern. The creation of dedicated subfleets for specific roles through suitable refurbishment would seem a sensible way to go.

Maybe those two points are linked.

Either some 319s need to be re-engineered 3 car trains or Northern need a small fleet of something alongside the 319s for routes the 319s can't run.

 

[AM9]

Either some 319s need to be re-engineered 3 car trains or Northern need a small fleet of something alongside the 319s for routes the 319s can't run.

As has been discussed more than once here, the modification of 319s to 3-cars would be uneconmical. They are 4-car and I suggest, will stay that way for the remaining 10-15 years of service life.
Without getting into yet another 'cast-offs from the south' argument, released 313s or even 314s if they can be modified to 3-car easier than the 319s, would fit the bill for frequent-stop and/or adverse gradient services. As both Southern and Merseyrail have demonstrated, the 'PEP design' has proven reliable, and suitable for refurbishment.

 

[northwichcat]

Without getting into yet another 'cast-offs from the south' argument, released 313s or even 314s if they can be modified to 3-car easier than the 319s, would fit the bill for frequent-stop and/or adverse gradient services. As both Southern and Merseyrail have demonstrated, the 'PEP design' has proven reliable, and suitable for refurbishment.

There's 2 different arguments for not having a fleet of just 319s at Northern Rail (West):
1. A need for 6 car services on Bolton corridor stoppers without necessairly needing 8 car.
2. Apparently the acceleration is poorer than on the 323s so they wouldn't be able to keep to 323 timings on Manchester-Stoke/Crewe/Glossop services.

Your 313/4 idea doesn't seem to solve both problems given the 323s are 69m and have up to around 280 seats - I think the highest number of seats that any 3 car train has, given they are 23m carriages and wide enough for 3+2 seating.

Maybe with timetabling revisions and changes to North TPE service patterns 319s could be used on Crewe/Glossop services and the idea is to use the 350/4s on Stoke services and services which transfer from TPE (Airport-Blackpool services with some Windermere portions)?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Maybe with timetabling revisions and changes to North TPE service patterns 319s could be used on Crewe/Glossop services and the idea is to use the 350/4s on Stoke services and services which transfer from TPE (Airport-Blackpool services with some Windermere portions)?

I suppose the 350s would be suitable for a reinvigorated "North West Express" - but are 10 enough?

Neil

 

[northwichcat]

I suppose the 350s would be suitable for a reinvigorated "North West Express" - but are 10 enough?

By my reckoning Stoke-Manchester is 3 diagrams for the standard pattern services and Manchester Airport-Blackpool is 4 diagrams, leaving 2 units for Windermere portions on Blackpool services then other Windermere services could be 319 shuttles to/from Preston. Obviously you'd need stations between Manchester and Preston to take 8 x 20m carriages but if 3 car 319s would be 'impossible' and Northern will only have 4 car EMUs then the 10s of millions required to allow that would have to be spent.

There could always be a condition put on the transfer of 17 x 323s to LM that they have to release a couple of 350s in the other direction - like when Northern got LM 150s and had to release 156s to EMT.

 

[D7666]

There's 2 different arguments for not having a fleet of just 319s at Northern Rail (West):
1. A need for 6 car services on Bolton corridor stoppers without necessairly needing 8 car.
2. Apparently the acceleration is poorer than on the 323s so they wouldn't be able to keep to 323 timings on Manchester-Stoke/Crewe/Glossop services.

1. When I went to school 3+3 = 6 - they could have a mixed 3 and 4 car "just 319" fleet ..........................

2 ...................... which also addresses the acceleration rate by losing 30+ton from each but same installed power.


Indeed, the latter point is EXACTLY why 1960s GE suburban had mixed 3car and 4car AMx units, and one (of several) reasons why LMR AM4 were reduced from 4 to 3car.

--
Nick

 

[Wolfie]

By my reckoning Stoke-Manchester is 3 diagrams for the standard pattern services and Manchester Airport-Blackpool is 4 diagrams, leaving 2 units for Windermere portions on Blackpool services then other Windermere services could be 319 shuttles to/from Preston. Obviously you'd need stations between Manchester and Preston to take 8 x 20m carriages but if 3 car 319s would be 'impossible' and Northern will only have 4 car EMUs then the 10s of millions required to allow that would have to be spent.

There could always be a condition put on the transfer of 17 x 323s to LM that they have to release a couple of 350s in the other direction - like when Northern got LM 150s and had to release 156s to EMT.

There have been extended moans from those in the North (more sepcifically the North West) for some time. Nothing has been heard from the West Midlands... yet!

If it looks likely the North West is to gain at the expence of "Greater" Birmingham (explains the concept I am aiming for although local rivalries mean it is never used) expect that to change very rapidly indeed. The Govt's current focus on Manchester is NOT going down too well in the area of Britain's second city anyway....

 

[northwichcat]

1. When I went to school 3+3 = 6 - they could have a mixed 3 and 4 car "just 319" fleet

According to a few posters on here the idea of making 319s 3 car is a non-starter, it's cost prohibitive etc. and the post you've quoted is my response to AM9's alternative suggestion.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There have been extended moans from those in the North (more sepcifically the North West) for some time. Nothing has been heard from the West Midlands... yet!

If it looks likely the North West is to gain at the expence of "Greater" Birmingham (explains the concept I am aiming for although local rivalries mean it is never used) expect that to change very rapidly indeed. The Govt's current focus on Manchester is NOT going down too well in the area of Britain's second city anyway....

Note a potential cascade of 350s from LM to Northern to give Northern more than 10 x 350s is just a possibility I mooted - I don't control rolling stock cascades.

There's been no official suggestion LM will get old for new. In fact the Northern 323s are newer than the 321s they currently use (and the 319s they will get as replacements), so it could be newer trains arriving at LM and older trains going out.

TPE releasing 350/4s to LM was only ever a logical rumour. It's not like the proposed new train order for Northern which went out to tender before the government decided they'll get cascaded 319s instead. Even the new idea of 350/4s going to Northern isn't a signed deal, they could still go to LM in the end!

 

[Tetchytyke]

I can't imagine the 350s going to Northern, they'd go to London Midland if they leave TPE. That would release the 319/321s up north.

I don't think the 319s would lose a trailer either, I don't see what the point would be. There's no reason why 8-cars can't stop at most stations in the north, platform alterations will need to be sorted out eventually.

 

[northwichcat]

I don't think the 319s would lose a trailer either, I don't see what the point would be. There's no reason why 8-cars can't stop at most stations in the north, platform alterations will need to be sorted out eventually.

As posted a million times before:
1. Acceleration of 319s is poorer than 323s and it's likely 4 car 319s can't be used on some services because of it - especially Manchester-Stoke. Removing one vehicle would improve acceleration.
2. Remodelling Salford Crescent to take 8 car trains would be difficult - it can currently take 6 car 185s or equivalent though.

So that explains why Porterbrook have looked at the option. However, it's possible Northern could have a small fleet of alternative EMUs alongside the 319s (like keeping 323s or taking on 350s in lieu.)

 

[AM9]

As posted a million times before:
1. Acceleration of 319s is poorer than 323s and it's likely 4 car 319s can't be used on some services because of it - especially Manchester-Stoke. Removing one vehicle would improve acceleration.
2. Remodelling Salford Crescent to take 8 car trains would be difficult - it can currently take 6 car 185s or equivalent though.

So that explains why Porterbrook have looked at the option. However, it's possible Northern could have a small fleet of alternative EMUs alongside the 319s (like keeping 323s or taking on 350s in lieu.)

Porterbrook will suggest anything that could bring in money. It doesn't mean the idea would be either cost-effective or even affordable. The 319s will be deployed where they can work just like they have been over the last 20 years. If there isn't sufficient cash for new trains, there are quite a few more trains of different types available to be cascaded during CP5 as I mentioned above. 313s & 315s have traction on 8 axles per 3 or 4 car set. The 315 includes a trailer with no significant equipment fitted enabling it to be removed, giving acceleration suitable for a heavily graded line or one with frequent stops using limited headways. As you say, they don't have the same number of seats as a 323 because 1) they are 20m cars not 23m and 2) the seating is 2+2 (which many here think is better for peak loadings).
The 323s are an anomaly in current EMU seating thinking and there will not be any more anyway. The trend on lines that are carrying very large number of passengers is for less seating to enable shorter dwells and more comfort for standees, e.g. classes 345 and 700, so something like the PEP style stock is (amazingly after 38 years) well in keeping with modern aims. If the 323s are taken elsewhere, and the routes on which they are leaving are really busy, then the PEP stock would be a cost-effective solution.
I'm not saying that the 323s should be moved, - just that if they are, there are workable solutions. If such replacements are used, then the stock would be up for replacement within 10 years or less anyway.
We all have to accept that trains are high value assets, and to keep replacing them when there is still plenty of economically viable stock available would not be acceptable even in better financial times.

 

[northwichcat]

Porterbrook will suggest anything that could bring in money. It doesn't mean the idea would be either cost-effective or even affordable.

Of course Porterbrook didn't like the prospect of having some 319s off-lease doing nothing when potentially they could be in use if some money was thrown at them to modify them.

 

[AM9]

Of course Porterbrook didn't like the prospect of having some 319s off-lease doing nothing when potentially they could be in use if some money was thrown at them to modify them.

Yes, but not their money. The sort of mods to make a 3-car unit would probably make it poor value for the users for such a limited time.

It looks like they won't be off lease for long if at all anyway.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There have been extended moans from those in the North (more sepcifically the North West) for some time.

I note your mention of the North-West and extended moans and more particularly your use of the word "sepcifically" to which my researches into its historical word base have yielded naught (an arcane word) so far unfortunately. Feel free to treat this as a "North-West extended moan" about having to make detailed lexicological researches in order to obtain cognisance of certain posting comments....:roll: