Northern rolling stock changes post electrification

[LNW-GW Joint]

Is it just on this forum that talk of this 1/2 hourly service appears or is this from an official railway source? I ask the question as I have never seen anything outside this forum about it.

Network Rail RUS and TfGM are usually quoted, neither of which decides services at Warrington.
There is also the prospect of Virgin using this route for the odd Liverpool-Euston service and weekend diversions (particularly with the upcoming upgrade of the Runcorn route).
No VT stops are possible before Warrington BQ - platforms are not long enough.
Currently peak NT services run direct to Victoria, so it is an odd setup with just an off-peak service.
It saves a unit and gives it somewhere useful to go and reverse.

 

[21C101]

Network Rail RUS and TfGM are usually quoted, neither of which decides services at Warrington.
There is also the prospect of Virgin using this route for the odd Liverpool-Euston service and weekend diversions (particularly with the upcoming upgrade of the Runcorn route).
No VT stops are possible before Warrington BQ - platforms are not long enough.
Currently peak NT services run direct to Victoria, so it is an odd setup with just an off-peak service.
It saves a unit and gives it somewhere useful to go and reverse.

What might make sense once the electrification is done is for Virgin is to run some off peak services from London to Carlisle/Glasgow via Liverpool (in via Runcorn and out via and calling at St Helens) and extend some London - Manchester pendo services to Blackpool via Bolton.

 

[mpb56125]

319361 out today between Liverpool South Parkway and Crewe.
http://mark5812.smugmug.com/Trains2014/December-2014/i-hRjgcPV/A

Mark
http://mark5812.smugmug.com

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

What might make sense once the electrification is done is for Virgin is to run some off peak services from London to Carlisle/Glasgow via Liverpool (in via Runcorn and out via and calling at St Helens) and extend some London - Manchester pendo services to Blackpool via Bolton.

Are there any spare paths for London to Manchester services along the viaduct from Manchester Piccadilly to Deansgate that will then enable onward progression to Bolton and Blackpool?

Will the Ordsall Chord project planned paths along the said viaduct, when actually running, take preference over such a proposal?

 

[302PS]

319361 out today between Liverpool South Parkway and Crewe.
http://mark5812.smugmug.com/Trains2014/December-2014/i-hRjgcPV/A

Mark
http://mark5812.smugmug.com

Working or driver training?
Also anyone know if any have entered the paint shop?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

What might make sense once the electrification is done is for Virgin is to run some off peak services from London to Carlisle/Glasgow via Liverpool (in via Runcorn and out via and calling at St Helens) and extend some London - Manchester pendo services to Blackpool via Bolton.

St Helens Central is too short for a Pendolino - 160m. A single Voyager would be OK.
Bolton would hold a Pendolino (P4 at 252m is a bit tight for an 11-car).

 

[traji00]

Working or driver training?
Also anyone know if any have entered the paint shop?

I doubt Northern would want them in service with FCC still plastered on the sides! [/pedant]

 

[mpb56125]

Working or driver training?
Also anyone know if any have entered the paint shop?

Driver training, At least one on Allerton Depot in Northern Trains livery.

Mark

 

[hairyhandedfool]

edwin_m, you could run a parly over the curve, but I expect the stock for the Ellesmere Port service comes off Chester depot.

The morning shuttle apparently stables at Liverpool Lime Street overnight and runs empty from there to Warrington Bank Quay, then in service to Ellesmere Port. When it finishes the shuttle, it's last service is back to Warrington Bank Quay for an ECS to Wigan and onward service to Lime Street.

The afternoon run is a unit that does Manchester Piccadilly-Chester, then ECS to Helsby. It's last passenger shuttle takes it to Warrington Bank Quay where it then runs ECS to Lime Street for a stopping service to Manchester Oxford Road.

....Also anyone know if any have entered the paint shop?

Let me Google that for you.

 

[Whistler40145]

Cheers for that information, hairyhandedfool, much appreciated.

 

[302PS]

:roll:

 

[Techniquest]

I've not kept up-to-date lately, but have we got anywhere nearer to knowing when 319s will enter passenger service? I'm probably still coming up to Merseyside on 4th January anyway for a final chance to do some DMUs before the electrics start running, quite I should really be spending this time booking some Advances and hotels...

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I've not kept up-to-date lately, but have we got anywhere nearer to knowing when 319s will enter passenger service? I'm probably still coming up to Merseyside on 4th January anyway for a final chance to do some DMUs before the electrics start running, quite I should really be spending this time booking some Advances and hotels...

I hear from two sources that it will be sometime in February.

 

[thealexweb]

St Helens Central is too short for a Pendolino - 160m. A single Voyager would be OK.
Bolton would hold a Pendolino (P4 at 252m is a bit tight for an 11-car).

Would Virgin really be put off by Bolton's platforms? Haymarket cannot fit an 11 car 390 yet they call there every day. And as you say Bolton's Platforms 3 and 4 can be both fit single and double 221s and nine car 390s no problems.

 

[WatcherZero]

Don't think they were put off as their Bolton proposal was a 9 car Pendo alternating Blackpool/Bolton services.

 

[thealexweb]

Don't think they were put off as their Bolton proposal was a 9 car Pendo alternating Blackpool/Bolton services.

I fear we are gradually getting further off topic but this information is new to me and too good to ignore.

Why alternate Bolton and Blackpool? Surely both can be served simultaneously on one route (London -> Manchester -> Bolton -> Blackpool North)?

 

[Whistler40145]

Exactly, can't a Piccadilly service be extended to Bolton when wired?

 

[WatcherZero]

Would be directly abstracting revenue from Northern/TPE if it called Manchester, Bolton, Blackpool. So arrive at Bolton via Manchester run out of service to Blackpool being cleaned and restocked and giving time for service recovery time if running late then start the return journey from Blackpool and vice versa.

P.S. Journey times wouldn't be competitive either, 30m Blackpool-Preston, 2:10m Preston-London, vs 1:15m Blackpool-Manchester, 2:10m Manchester-London. Direct via Manchester would be 3/4 an hour slower than changing.

 

[Whistler40145]

IMHO if the track layout and signalling was modified at Bolton, then some Virgin services could be extended to Bolton from Manchester, the only problem is that a 11 coach Pendolino might not fit P13/14 at Piccadilly.

 

[WatcherZero]

Bolton Council is also trying to persuade Virgin to start their first service of the day from Manchester from Bolton instead. Not currently asking for a return service to call from London at Bolton. Virgin probably still do have their own ideas about service extensions but electrification probably key.

 

[Starmill]

IMHO if the track layout and signalling was modified at Bolton, then some Virgin services could be extended to Bolton from Manchester, the only problem is that a 11 coach Pendolino might not fit P13/14 at Piccadilly.

They called there earlier this year, they do fit.

 

[edwin_m]

They called there earlier this year, they do fit.

The new platforms 15/16 for Northern Hub will be shorter, though if it's only an Up train in the morning it won't need to use these platforms.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Is it the case that all Pendolino trains will eventually be 11 coach units?

 

[themiller]

Is it the case that all Pendolino trains will eventually be 11 coach units?

Someone would have to make a business case for the extra vehicles bearing in mind that they'll have a restricted life in which to recoup the investment.
On a similar line, could a couple of the Lambrigg coaches not be repaired and inserted into a 9-car?

 

[sprinterguy]

On a similar line, could a couple of the Lambrigg coaches not be repaired and inserted into a 9-car?

If the whole set was written off for insurance purposes it might be legally difficult to return certain vehicles to service.

If this was possible, and subject to the structural integrity of the vehicles being proven, in order to match the configuration of the other 11-car Pendolinos, one vehicle would have to be a trailer standard (with transformer) and the other a motor standard. Of the six vehicles out of "City of Glasgow" that survive, both pantograph cars are still extant (one at Virgin's Training Academy at Crewe) and one motor first, in store at Long Marston, would be available. The two vehicles at Moreton in Marsh fire training college might not be in much of a condition to be returned to service.

Probably far simpler and less costly not to bother for the sake of one, maybe two, extra lengthened units.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Thanks for those recent postings. It is the regular mention of 11-car sets in postings that made me think.

 

[edwin_m]

If the whole set was written off for insurance purposes it might be legally difficult to return certain vehicles to service.

They would be the property of the insurer but I don't think there would be any legal bar to them selling to someone else.

The insurer may however have decided that having some spare bodyshells is a good "insurance policy" to avoid having to write off another whole set if a Pendolino has an accident in future which only affects a coach or two. At the time of Lambrigg the Pendolino production line was expected to reopen (and did) for the extra coaches and some extra complete units, but it would be much more difficult to replace them today.

 

[deltic08]

Would be directly abstracting revenue from Northern/TPE if it called Manchester, Bolton, Blackpool.

Is this a service for the benefit of the public or the TOCs? This is one of the many reasons for taking railways back into public ownership,

 

[WatcherZero]

No, just common sense that if a service cannibalises existing demand without adding new demand then it reduces the viability of both services leading to a less efficient, more expensive to run railway. Hence the abstraction test is carried out on proposed new services to see if they would benefit or harm the railway.

 

[childwallblues]

Is it the case that all Pendolino trains will eventually be 11 coach units?

The are no plans to extend the twenty one 9-car trains. Each of these will have Coach G de-classified to increase standard class seating.