Northern rolling stock changes post electrification

[edwin_m]

i wouldnt be surprised if Health and Safety havent got a hand in this.

You would assume high back seating is safer than low back.

Well yes, but rail accidents are so rare that the safety benefit is pretty much negligible.

 

[Clip]

I'll reserve judgment until I have been on it, but to me, refurbishment must have replacement of seats (not just covers - have they replaced the cushions?), carpets and tables. The train must look internally new. The technical changes will be specified by their new working requirements, any accessibility regulations not met must be, and of course anything that's broken must be fixed, preferably for the long term. It will usually involve a new livery. This refreshment meets most of these requirements. What they need in the new franchise are replacement seats, in 2+2 and with some tables. They might also need luggage provision looking at again. Carpet is almost always preferable to plastic. But it could have been a lot worse.

The one thing that I think the 319s should get that hasn't been mentioned is air conditioning, but IMHO fitting that is slightly beyond a refurbishment, as the class 321 demonstrator has shown (and is it the 317 demo that has 'air cooling?' cos that's usually a waste of time too!).

Wow you're never happy are you, you certainly demand lots from TOCs and all for £2 per journey!! No matter how far you travel.

 

[physics34]

Well yes, but rail accidents are so rare that the safety benefit is pretty much negligible.

agree

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well yes, but rail accidents are so rare that the safety benefit is pretty much negligible.

What is nice about high-back is that those of us who are tall can rest their heads on the headrests rather than the back of our shoulders...

Neil

 

[northwichcat]

Well yes, but rail accidents are so rare that the safety benefit is pretty much negligible.

Doesn't need to be an accident. Just coming to a sudden stop could result in minor injuries if the seats are badly designed.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Opening windows doesn't come close to air con for temperature control.

I can only compare between the 350 and the 321 (which is basically the same internally as the 319), as they're the trains on my line. When the air con is at full blast then the 350 is nicer, but if it isn't (e.g. when the train's been sat in Camden sidings all afternoon with the power off) then the 321 wins hands down.

High back seating prevents whiplash injuries and injuries to the lower back when the train decelerates suddenly, and also provides more protection from flying luggage, etc.

 

[Emyr]

Also helps prevent taller passengers from headbutting the passenger in front.

 

[Starmill]

The 319s have good big opening windows and, to be honest, they're probably more effective than air conditioning.

Come back and tell me that next July
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

When it works.

I would rather have opening windows than the often non-functioning "aircon" of any DMU built before the Class 170, unless like Chiltern's it has had a completely new system fitted.

By contrast, I suppose, a Class 350 is a joy on a hot summer's day.

Neil

Once again Neil I think nail on the head. New trains' air con is a joy. See 333, any desiro, newest electrostars. What you do not want to be on is an old Turbo or 158 that has it but lacks hopper windows and it never works!

 

[W230]

Doesn't need to be an accident. Just coming to a sudden stop could result in minor injuries if the seats are badly designed.

I think the only sudden stop you'll get on a train would have to be a collision with something. Even under emergency braking there's not much sudden about it!

 

[northwichcat]

I think the only sudden stop you'll get on a train would have to be a collision with something. Even under emergency braking there's not much sudden about it!

I disagree. I suffered an emergency stop on a 4 car 142 leaving Chester apparently due to a train fault and it was not pleasant even though the train hadn't picked up any real speed before braking. If the train had been doing any real speed and the train had come to a stop like that I think an ambulance would have been called.

 

[W230]

I disagree. I suffered an emergency stop on a 4 car 142 leaving Chester apparently due to a train fault and it was not pleasant even though the train hadn't picked up any real speed before braking. If the train had been doing any real speed and the train had come to a stop like that I think an ambulance would have been called.

Genuinely intrigued. I thought 142s were suposed to have crap brakes? (I have no idea admitttedly having never driven one)

But having done emergency stops on both 319s and 377s from ~85mph there was definitely no need for an ambulance!

 

[Bright Boy]

I don't know why you are all whingeing about the seats, most people will probably standing in the aisles and vestibules, what do they do in a sudden stop?, use each other to cushion themselves most likely, or bounce of the walls:-x

 

[tom1649]

The new rules on seating don't provide any help to standing passengers. If they were that serious they wouldn't allow anyone to stand, which of course is not realistic.

I don't understand why a refurbishment has to include new seats if it's to be called a refurbishment. Some trains have gone through their whole lives of 40+ years without new seats and yet have remained comfortable trains to travel on in my opinion.

Of course you'll never please everyone no matter what you do.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't understand why a refurbishment has to include new seats if it's to be called a refurbishment. Some trains have gone through their whole lives of 40+ years without new seats and yet have remained comfortable trains to travel on in my opinion.

I think you misunderstand the reason. If it's only a "refresh", i.e. new seat covers and a coat of paint, it is not required to refit the train with, for example, a disabled toilet. With a full refurbishment it is required.

Neil

 

[edwin_m]

I disagree. I suffered an emergency stop on a 4 car 142 leaving Chester apparently due to a train fault and it was not pleasant even though the train hadn't picked up any real speed before braking. If the train had been doing any real speed and the train had come to a stop like that I think an ambulance would have been called.

This is a consequence of rate of change of deceleration. From a higher speed the deceleration would have been just the same, as would the rate of change on reaching a stop. And from a higher speed you would have longer to prepare for it!

It doesn't really compare to the sort of braking and curving that happens every day on most buses. Yet buses are allowed to have low seats and trains aren't. Go figure.

 

[Iskra]

I don't know why you are all whingeing about the seats, most people will probably standing in the aisles and vestibules, what do they do in a sudden stop?, use each other to cushion themselves most likely, or bounce of the walls:-x

I've done an emergency stop on a crush-loaded 158 (with 2 155's attached) full of drunk people. In no way would I have described it as dangerous. A few people wobbled/swayed as we came to a halt, but it wasn't carnage by any means.

 

[TOCDriver]

I disagree. I suffered an emergency stop on a 4 car 142 leaving Chester apparently due to a train fault and it was not pleasant even though the train hadn't picked up any real speed before braking. If the train had been doing any real speed and the train had come to a stop like that I think an ambulance would have been called.

lol. Is this a wind-up?

 

[martynbristow]

An emergency stop on a train full of people, DRUNK people, is hardly a sensible comment.
Drunk people generally seem to be less prone to injury and if the train is full chances are you'll just upset someone rather than injure them.

The incident at Sudbury involved a 156 colliding with a lorry only partially laden and had some serious injuries. 1 the conductor who was standing and 2 people went into the tables and got bruising.

 

[Starmill]

Try the full Hazard brake on an M5000 LRV. Lighter than a pacer and with magnetic track brakes...


As for the buses, I find the forces involved are much more easily mediate through actually being able to drive a bus well, unlike for a train...

 

[W230]

The incident at Sudbury involved a 156 colliding with a lorry only partially laden and had some serious injuries. 1 the conductor who was standing and 2 people went into the tables and got bruising.

Exactly! It collided with something - but we're talking about emergency braking, not collision (see #2199)

 

[northwichcat]

lol. Is this a wind-up?

No. It actually happened! The only thing that's a joke is the continued use of Pacers.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Exactly! It collided with something - but we're talking about emergency braking, not collision (see #2199)

Are we? I thought we were talking about sudden deceleration. Even in a car you won't get whiplash injuries from an emergency stop.

 

[andyb2706]

Try the full Hazard brake on an M5000 LRV. Lighter than a pacer and with magnetic track brakes...

.

An what is wrong with that, as a passenger you end up sitting in the cab with the driver. Been there, done that

 

[northwichcat]

Try the full Hazard brake on an M5000 LRV. Lighter than a pacer and with magnetic track brakes...

I may have experienced that when a suicidal cyclist cycled across the tram line, driver apologised for the sudden braking.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are we? I thought we were talking about sudden deceleration. Even in a car you won't get whiplash injuries from an emergency stop.

The difference between cars and trains is that the usual approach with trains is to prevent them hitting things, whereas with cars it is accepted that a certain number of them *will* hit things and as such active and passive safety systems are far more necessary to reduce the effect of them doing so.

Neil

 

[physics34]

the braking curve during an emergency stop means the point at just before the train will come to a stop will be very harsh... hence it seems very harsh when an emergency stop is instigated at a slow speed compare to at a high speed.

 

[TOCDriver]

the braking curve during an emergency stop means the point at just before the train will come to a stop will be very harsh... hence it seems very harsh when an emergency stop is instigated at a slow speed compare to at a high speed.

Yes you get a jolt when it stops but nowhere near enough to cause injury, unless you're standing and get caught off balance.

 

[Bald Rick]

An emergency stop on a train full of people, DRUNK people, is hardly a sensible comment.
Drunk people generally seem to be less prone to injury and if the train is full chances are you'll just upset someone rather than injure them.

The incident at Sudbury involved a 156 colliding with a lorry only partially laden and had some serious injuries. 1 the conductor who was standing and 2 people went into the tables and got bruising.

As comments go, this is hardly sensible. The 'partially laden' lorry was an articulated tanker with about 10 tonnes of slurry on it. IIRC the train was doing 47mph when it had the collision. The train came to a stand approx 50metres further on (my memory fails me on this point, but then I was literally knee deep in slurry from the tanker at the time).

That is roughly 10 times the deceleration of emergency braking.

 

[Class319361]

If you do remove the DC equipment that means that if they do get cascaded back down to the south they could not operate on the DC third rail any more.

WhatI hate is that south eastern don't use the class 375 on the dual voltage operationwhen they're fully capable of AC operation as well as DC:-x

 

[swt_passenger]

If you do remove the DC equipment that means that if they do get cascaded back down to the south they could not operate on the DC third rail any more.

The 'DC equipment' is just the pick up shoes and carriers. Everything else about the traction system is required for AC operation. The shoe gear could be stored and put back on just as easily.

What I hate is that south eastern don't use the class 375 on the dual voltage operation when they're fully capable of AC operation as well as DC:-x

A bit academic because Southeastern won't be responsible for any routes that need AC after their shared Thameslink responsibility is lost in a few weeks time. (Ignoring HS1 in this context.)