Northern rolling stock changes post electrification

[northwichcat]

I'd honestly have thought that another 8 to 10 could go to Northern, replacing 323s on the Airport shuttle/Crewe/etc turns, which in turn go to LM to displace the soon to be 5x 350 turns on the Cross-City line, allowing the 7x 321s to go to ScotRail...

That would require DfT putting their hand in their pocket given the Direct Award agreement doesn't allow for Piccadilly crews to be trained on 319s, with other crews not signing Airport-Crewe or Stockport-Crewe. Also with the apparent ban on rest day working getting more crews trained on 319s may be difficult even if the funds are there.

 

[158722]

That would require DfT putting their hand in their pocket given the Direct Award agreement doesn't allow for Piccadilly crews to be trained on 319s, with other crews not signing Airport-Crewe or Stockport-Crewe. Also with the apparent ban on rest day working getting more crews trained on 319s may be difficult even if the funds are there.

Which leaves LM 7 units down and against what was announced at the time as regards the 350/3s, in that no units would be leaving the franchise...

Meanwhile we will have more 319s coming off leave with TSGN and going where? Long Marston? Eastleigh works?

 

[northwichcat]

Which leaves LM 7 units down and against what was announced at the time as regards the 350/3s, in that no units would be leaving the franchise...

Originally LM were only going to get 7 x 350s but DfT allowed them to increase the order by 3 x 150s - I wonder if they'll now see 3 of those as replacement trains?

Is it planned for all 6 stored 317s to return to service? If not Anglia could take them back on and release some 321s.

 

[158722]

Originally LM were only going to get 7 x 350s but DfT allowed them to increase the order by 3 x 150s - I wonder if they'll now see 3 of those as replacement trains?

Is it planned for all 6 stored 317s to return to service? If not Anglia could take them back on and release some 321s.

There is some logic in that, although a bit of a merry-go-round of 321s as seems confirmed that its the LM 7 which are off to Scotland.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I'd honestly have thought that another 8 to 10 could go to Northern, replacing 323s on the Airport shuttle/Crewe/etc turns, which in turn go to LM to displace the soon to be 5x 350 turns on the Cross-City line, allowing the 7x 321s to go to ScotRail...

At the present time, are you saying that there a feeling that the Northern Rail Class 323 3-car units do not meet the capacity requirements of the routes they currently run, which a further 8 to 10 replacement Class 319 4-car units would improve, that causes you to make the posting above?

 

[Bletchleyite]

At the present time, are you saying that there a feeling that the Northern Rail Class 323 3-car units do not meet the capacity requirements of the routes they currently run, which a further 8 to 10 replacement Class 319 4-car units would improve, that causes you to make the posting above?

No, I think he's talking about a multi-way swap that would mean Northern had fewer classes of unit to worry about, whereas LM would not end up with fewer units than planned.

Neil

 

[158722]

No, I think he's talking about a multi-way swap that would mean Northern had fewer classes of unit to worry about, whereas LM would not end up with fewer units than planned.

Neil

Exactly, nothing wrong with Northern's 323s where they are, only that they possibly better used to cover LM jobs, keeping certain classes in certain areas, in this case the West Midlands with all the 323s and Northern with all/most of the 319s. The capacity increase of a 319 isn't all that much more than a 323, wasn't suggesting otherwise.

 

[Viscount702]

Exactly, nothing wrong with Northern's 323s where they are, only that they possibly better used to cover LM jobs, keeping certain classes in certain areas, in this case the West Midlands with all the 323s and Northern with all/most of the 319s. The capacity increase of a 319 isn't all that much more than a 323, wasn't suggesting otherwise.

But that causes problems on platform lengths even if it doesn't cause problems with acceleration as often quoted on here but I am not convinced on the latter.

 

[northwichcat]

Well the 7 x 321s for Scotrail are actually going to come from Thameslink Great Northern (not London Midland) according to Rail, so possibly some of the 319s being freed up off Thameslink which aren't going to Northern are going to take the place of 321s?

 

[swt_passenger]

Well the 7 x 321s for Scotrail are actually going to come from Thameslink Great Northern (not London Midland) according to Rail, so possibly some of the 319s being freed up off Thameslink which aren't going to Northern are going to take the place of 321s?

Or 377/5, or 377/2. TSGN have a number of different options once the full 387/1 order is in service. As they eventually intend to transfer 377s of some sort to the GN route anyway, they could start that earlier than we previously thought?

 

[158722]

Well the 7 x 321s for Scotrail are actually going to come from Thameslink Great Northern (not London Midland) according to Rail, so possibly some of the 319s being freed up off Thameslink which aren't going to Northern are going to take the place of 321s?

That would make much more sense, even if assuming some crew training required for GN crews on the 319s.

 

[northwichcat]

Or 377/5, or 377/2. TSGN have a number of different options once the full 387/1 order is in service. As they eventually intend to transfer 377s of some sort to the GN route anyway, they could start that earlier than we previously thought?

The reason I suggested 319s is because earlier in the thread 377/5 suggested 319s are being freed up off Thameslink at a more rapid rate than is required for the 14 x 319s to transfer to Northern at the dates DfT specified.

 

[swt_passenger]

The reason I suggested 319s is because earlier in the thread 377/5 suggested 319s are being freed up off Thameslink at a more rapid rate than is required for the 14 x 319s to transfer to Northern at the dates DfT specified.

I know he did. Nevertheless if the Thameslink side (of TSGN) is in a position to release a few units early there are a number of equally practical options. It depends if operationally they'd prefer a temporary 'micro fleet' of 319s on the GN or a gradually increasing number of 377/x which they'll keep for a long term period and in relatively much greater numbers.

 

[Wolfie]

I know he did. Nevertheless if the Thameslink side (of TSGN) is in a position to release a few units early there are a number of equally practical options. It depends if operationally they'd prefer a temporary 'micro fleet' of 319s on the GN or a gradually increasing number of 377/x which they'll keep for a long term period and in relatively much greater numbers.

There are advantages with respect to driver training etc with the approach you suggest also.

 

[Brian Aylott]

Well the 7 x 321s for Scotrail are actually going to come from Thameslink Great Northern (not London Midland) according to Rail

Well that seems to prove that the 7 x 321s are coming from LM (based upon Rail's well known accuracy)
Brian

 

[Class377/5]

I wonder if porterbrook will take the opportunity and use one of the soon to be off lease units as a demonstrator?

Nope. All units freed up by the arrival of the 387/1 now have new homes. Can't give more details then that.

 

[Manchester77]

Nope. All units freed up by the arrival of the 387/1 now have new homes. Can't give more details then that.

Are you able to say if they're heading to one particular TOC or if it's multiple?

 

[Techniquest]

I'm also interested if it's just Northern receiving all the 319s (however many it is now), but happy to wait for confirmed gen

Could be interesting to see what happens!

 

[Starmill]

Nope. All units freed up by the arrival of the 387/1 now have new homes. Can't give more details then that.

Ooh, tease

 

[Class 170101]

Nope. All units freed up by the arrival of the 387/1 now have new homes. Can't give more details then that.

Is this related to the statement made to Parliament reference the solution for the 170s moving from TPE to Chiltern and the resultin stock shortfall on TPE?

 

[Hophead]

I think there's been enough hints about Southeastern being in line for some more stock....

 

[northwichcat]

Is this related to the statement made to Parliament reference the solution for the 170s moving from TPE to Chiltern and the resultin stock shortfall on TPE?

If it is they'll need to be a lot of diesel locos sourced as well as Northern certainly can't switch 8 or 9 diagrams to EMU during the current franchise, on top of the diagrams that are already set to become 319 diagrams.

 

[swt_passenger]

Well that seems to prove that the 7 x 321s are coming from LM (based upon Rail's well known accuracy)
Brian

I see Today's Railways has also gone with the 7 x 321s being ex-GN units...

Just a few magazines to go now...

 

[northwichcat]

I see Today's Railways has also gone with the 7 x 321s being ex-GN units...

Just a few magazines to go now...

LM could have been an educated guess by someone given they have 7 and Scotrail are getting 7. I don't think anyone would made an educated guess about GN releasing 321s imminently.

 

[Class377/5]

I think there's been enough hints about Southeastern being in line for some more stock....

No hints, they are. But 319s are off to 'multiple' TOCs.

 

[hwl]

No hints, they are. But 319s are off to 'multiple' TOCs.

A short stay for a 319 micro fleet at SE would make a lot of sense, given a number of the SE routes are already cleared for 319s, a sensible number of SE drivers trained on the 319s (and the routes) and the ability to get away without refurbishing them...
Maintenance could remain at the present locations.

 

[Brian Aylott]

No hints, they are. But 319s are off to 'multiple' TOCs.

As c2c need more EMUs in 2015, a batch of these might be welcomed there!
Brian
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I see Today's Railways has also gone with the 7 x 321s being ex-GN units...

Just a few magazines to go now

I didn't actually see where Rail said Scotland were getting the 7 x 321s from GTR (ex FCC) but I did have a quick look while in WHS's library and in the latest Rail they have mentioned in the articlel about the new Franchise that LM have 7 x 321s - maybe they are attempting to get it right by suggesting now that they might be coming from either!
Brian

 

[47802]

No hints, they are. But 319s are off to 'multiple' TOCs.

The impression I got was that the 387's would free up the 14 319's to Northern and then some 377/5 to GN which would allow the 321's to Scotland

But I'm totally confused as to what's going on now.

 

[RobShipway]

I know that the Class 700's start that frees up the Class 387's to move on to pastures new, which is expected the Great Western when it is electrified within the next two years.

I think there is enough 319's to go to Northern, South Eastern and C2C as there is 86 train sets, however the majority of these will not move until the Class 700's have been introduced.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I think there is enough 319's to go to Northern, South Eastern and C2C as there is 86 train sets, however the majority of these will not move until the Class 700's have been introduced.

How does this affect the proposed timetable for the Class 319 EMU to provide a full daily service on the Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Airport line?