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Northern rolling stock changes post electrification

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LNW-GW Joint

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I've always suggested 6 car EMUs replacing 4 car DMUs - allowing for a level of growth but not doubling capacity just in case, which would require Northern to have a higher level of subsidy. You keep going on about 6 car 185s, yet there's very few 6 car 185 services via Bolton, yet plenty of Pacer/Sprinter services in 2, 3 and 4 car formations

You'll see from the November Modern Railways that Alex Hynes (Northern MD) has told Tony Miles that the question of platform/train lengths is for the future franchise bidders to negotiate with DfT/NR.
He's just taking the 14x4-car 319s on offer for now.
 
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SpacePhoenix

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Would it be worth the 319s getting new traction motors and a new traction package that could keep up better with the 323s?
 

Class 170101

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In respect of the platform lengtheing yes 8 cars may not be required today or indeed over the next decade however what is the cost of lengthening platforms to eight cars today over lengthening them to six cars today and to come back again tomorrow to lengthen the same platforms to eight cars?

Additionally has anyone considered that the sparks effect may actually increase demand, by far more than the various railway economic models can anticipate and secondly, how much suppressed demand is there due to current overcrowding?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Would it be worth the 319s getting new traction motors and a new traction package that could keep up better with the 323s?

This could happen anyway. Look what the leasing companies are doing with Class 317s and 321s.
 

Class377/5

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In respect of the platform lengtheing yes 8 cars may not be required today or indeed over the next decade however what is the cost of lengthening platforms to eight cars today over lengthening them to six cars today and to come back again tomorrow to lengthen the same platforms to eight cars?

The difference between an 6 car 185 and 8 car 319 is only 22m, or a single carriage length.
 

WatcherZero

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~£10k per metre platform extension plus around £40k to move a signal, £4k to establish a work site. If points need altering, structures moving or more extensive alterations your into six figure/7 figures more. So even the simplest job in a two platform station would be around £0.5m more multiplied by number of stations.

I think conservatively platform lengthening across multiple lines for 8 car EMU would be £2-300m, same again as Lancashire Triangle electrification.
(expect Locke to come on and say even that is optimistic.)
 
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AM9

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Why do the 319s need to keep up with the 323s?

Agreed, re. my post #1618. Don't forget we have a lot of Northern train enthusiasts here who really just want to see something different in their area. They seem to forget that trains are for carrying passengers, most of them paying.
 

northwichcat

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But the 319s will be used on the newly electrified routes which currently use DMUs. Apart from 185s which are TPE anyway, are you saying that 150s, 156s and even Pacers can out accelerate the 319s? If so then maybe all this slating of Pacers is porkies.

It looks like Watcherzero is saying replacing DMUs with 319s could create extra paths but if you replace 323s with 319s then you could lose those extra paths.

Pacers are not quick to accelerate, especially when they have more passengers than seats. There's one service on my local line which is booked for a 2 car 150 and is gets a crush loading and it's not uncommon for it to take 4 minutes longer than timetabled. However, when a Pacer fills in for the 150 it takes around 9 minutes longer than timetabled, due to a combination of the train being smaller, less doors and poorer acceleration when there's a crush loading - and yes people get left behind when it's a Pacer.
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If that be the case, then the immediacy of that particular subject is somewhat diminished.

What's important to remember though is they'll only be a limited amount of time between the next franchise starting and (hopefully) usable electrics becoming available on the Bolton corridor. If the winning franchise bidder wants Porterbrook to progress with their proposed option of 3 car 319s with corridor connectors the units may not be ready for the electrics are.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Promised? Proof please as opposed to mention of plans which, due to their very nature, get changed all the time.....

Most things relating to what the previous DfT said disappeared from the web when the government migrated the website. However, it was written in to the revised franchise agreement in August 2011 that TPE would get 40 additional carriages. Network Rail in their various RUS' had identified a need for additional Manchester-Scotland services, Manchester-Liverpool services and Manchester-York services and it had been agreed between TPE and DfT under the previous government that they could provide those enhancements as long as at least 10 x 4 car trains are received as additional capacity.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Why do the 319s need to keep up with the 323s?

Timings are extremely tight on the WCML stoppers in the evening peak.

The 17:09 Deansgate-Stoke must leave Piccadilly at 17:17 - there's no path for it to leave a couple of minutes earlier. It also must arrive at Stoke before 18:11 otherwise it'll delay the 17:35 Piccadilly-Euston. Using a 323 it's expected to arrive in Stoke at 18:08 but has a public timetable arrival of 18:10.
 

deltic08

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~£10k per metre platform extension plus around £40k to move a signal, £4k to establish a work site. If points need altering, structures moving or more extensive alterations your into six figure/7 figures more. So even the simplest job in a two platform station would be around £0.5m more multiplied by number of stations.

I think conservatively platform lengthening across multiple lines for 8 car EMU would be £2-300m, same again as Lancashire Triangle electrification.
(expect Locke to come on and say even that is optimistic.)

Peanuts compared to £15billion for Crossrail and £20billion for Crossrail2.
 

northwichcat

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Peanuts compared to £15billion for Crossrail and £20billion for Crossrail2.

For the Crossrail budget you could probably have all the proposed CP5 infrastructure enhancements and a fleet of new diesel trains to replace the Pacers and Sprinters and a fleet of new electric trains to replace the existing EMUs as well as to run the newly electrified services.
 

Class377/5

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Peanuts compared to £15billion for Crossrail and £20billion for Crossrail2.

Remember £10bn of that was raised by London itself. Still your point is valid, which is why I don't understand the opposition to increasing capacity on the busiest routes in the Northern area?
 

Clip

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I dont understand poster saying platform lengthening is a bad idea because they wont get used all the time.

Thats right they dont - just like they dont all over the south east which have platforms for 10-12 car trains yet for most of the day only have 4 cars use them for most of the days. They get hammered during the peaks though and thats why they are good idea.
 

northwichcat

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You are assuming that SWT wants 5 car Desiros for a start and where exactly are the Desiros you want to allocate to economic basket-case Northern supposed to come from? To be very clear, there is zero appitite to give Northern one penny piece more. Indeed pressure is coming on in the South to stop London commuters subsidising the whole of the rail system. See: http://www.standard.co.uk/news/poli...ws-travelling-in-subcattle-class-9825517.html

Not that argument again.

Without the 'unprofitable' connecting services Virgin, EC, FGW (mainline) and EMT (mainline) would see passenger numbers drop and London would suffer as a result. Get to Stockport early one weekday morning and see how many hundreds of people who arrive on local services, then subsequently board a Virgin service to London.

Also aren't the Virgin Anytime fares between the North West and London the most expensive Intercity fares in the country? And don't people keep saying those services are used a lot more by people from the North West going to London rather than the other way around? If so isn't it people from the North West who suffer the most from those high fares?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Found a way of coping and pasting the Network Rail analysis which I linked to earlier.

Network Rail said:
Analysis undertaken by the RUS working group
has demonstrated that sufficient capacity can
be provided by the appropriate lengthening of
services on the Bolton corridor in the following
three scenarios without the need for significant
infrastructure:

1. After Chat Moss electrification but before full
Lancashire Triangle electrification around 2017.
Assuming that the train in the standard path
of the Anglo-Scottish service will be diverted
via the WCML route from Preston and onto the
Chat Moss route

2. Post Lancashire triangle electrification to the
end of the RUS period in 2023/24. Assuming
that all the current services remain on the
Bolton corridor

3. Post Lancashire triangle electrification to the end
of the RUS period in 2023/24. Assuming that the
train in the standard path of the Anglo-Scottish
service will be diverted via the WCML route from
Preston and onto the Chat Moss route.

In each of these scenarios, lengthening of services
may result in the need for extending the following
platforms:
- Blackrod (lengthening from five to six-car)
- Westhoughton (lengthening from five to six-car)
- Hindley (lengthening from five to six-car)
- Meols Cop (lengthening from five to six-car)
- Parbold (lengthening one platform from five to
six-car)
- Appley Bridge (lengthening from four to six-car).

The analysis of scenarios 2 and 3 indicates that
four-car EMU services may not provide enough
capacity in CP5 and eight-cars may be an overprovision,
depending on the service specification
adopted, and trigger a larger programme of
platform lengthening than outlined above,
including major works at Salford Crescent.
Six-car formations would be ideal but would
require three-car EMUs to be provided when train
lengthening becomes necessary.

Scenarios 1 and 3 provide an improved service from
Wigan to Manchester Oxford Road, Manchester
Piccadilly and Manchester Airport. This has the
potential to abstract passengers from other
services on the Bolton corridor. Analysis of demand
demonstrates that the following issues could arise in
these scenarios:

- a four-car EMU on the Anglo – Scottish service
may not provide sufficient capacity between
Preston, Wigan and Manchester Piccadilly. This
issue would be exacerbated in the PM peak, and
particularly on Friday evenings, for passengers
travelling from Manchester to destinations north
of Lancaster. The West Coast Main Line RUS is
considering Friday and weekend crowding on the
Manchester to Scotland trains.

- less capacity may be required on any fast
services between Wigan and Manchester
via Bolton.

On completion of electrification, the service pattern
on the Bolton corridor needs to provide a desirable
spread of services to the north and south sides of
Manchester. Transport for Greater Manchester,
which has taken over the responsibilities of the
former Greater Manchester Passenger Transport
Executive (GMPTE), has a multi-modal model which
can be used to test different service options to help
identify the optimal spread. GMPTE undertook a
study into the ultimate destination of passengers
travelling from stations between Preston and
Manchester on the Bolton corridor using this model
which indicated that the current level of services
to Manchester Victoria needs to be maintained
but the loss of one train in the high-peak hour to
Manchester Oxford Road and Manchester Piccadilly
could be acceptable provided sufficient capacity was
available on the remaining services.

If the service proposition for the Bolton corridor
to deliver sufficient passenger capacity and the
connectivity to the north and south sides of
Manchester requires an additional high-peak
hour service, analysis indicates that this could be
achievable through a recast of the timetable with
alternate stopping patterns and destinations of
some services. For example, diverting the Southport
to Manchester Airport service to Manchester Victoria
and retiming the Blackpool North to Manchester
Airport service provides an additional path from
Preston on this corridor.
 

Wolfie

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Not that argument again.

That is how many of us feel with respect to your "woe is me" North West argument!

Without the 'unprofitable' connecting services Virgin, EC, FGW (mainline) and EMT (mainline) would see passenger numbers drop and London would suffer as a result. Get to Stockport early one weekday morning and see how many hundreds of people who arrive on local services, then subsequently board a Virgin service to London.

Also aren't the Virgin Anytime fares between the North West and London the most expensive Intercity fares in the country? And don't people keep saying those services are used a lot more by people from the North West going to London rather than the other way around? If so isn't it people from the North West who suffer the most from those high fares?

You started so well by trying to focus on all of Northern and not your own parochial interests... but it didn't last too long! If you look through the thread even those from other areas of the North are frankly bored with the same tedious repetitive claptrap! It's not as if anyone with any influence is actually going to give a hoot what you post on here anyway.....
 

deltic08

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That is how many of us feel with respect to your "woe is me" North West argument!



You started so well by trying to focus on all of Northern and not your own parochial interests... but it didn't last too long! If you look through the thread even those from other areas of the North are frankly bored with the same tedious repetitive claptrap! It's not as if anyone with any influence is actually going to give a hoot what you post on here anyway.....

Wrong. Point out to anybody in the North how much rail infrastructure London is getting per head of population compared to the North and Northeast of England and their attitude changes from docile through disbelief to anger.

WE don't want more than other parts of the UK, just parity.
 

northwichcat

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If you look through the thread even those from other areas of the North are frankly bored with the same tedious repetitive claptrap! It's not as if anyone with any influence is actually going to give a hoot what you post on here anyway.....

Well maybe you should look at actual figures before posting a Daily Mail style article. The franchises which serve the South which paid a premium in the last year were:
East Coast £19m
FCC: £93.7m
SWT: £64.1m

Total £176.8m

The total Southeastern subsidy was £334m, so the South cannot be possibly subsiding the North because overall the South is being subsided itself.
 
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Wolfie

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Wrong. Point out to anybody in the North how much rail infrastructure London is getting per head of population compared to the North and Northeast of England and their attitude changes from docile through disbelief to anger.

WE don't want more than other parts of the UK, just parity.

Fine.

Point out to anyone in the South East how much operating subsidy rail in the North is getting per head of population, and the fact that not only are their taxes going towards that but also, at the same time, they are paying a premium in their fares towards that as well, and their attitude changes from docile through disbelief to anger.

WE don't want to pay more for our travel than other parts of the UK, just parity.

The reality is that the North would have more investment if all of the money wasn't being spunked away on massively loss-making current services.....
 
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DT611

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Point out to anyone in the South East how much operating subsidy rail in the North is getting per head of population

nobody cares, get over it.

the fact that not only are their taxes going towards that but also, at the same time, they are paying a premium in their fares towards investment in their infrastructure

i thought thats what you want? users to pay a premium for investment?

The reality is that the North would have nothing to invest in if all of the money wasn't being spent on services that provide a social benefit and a lifeline to the communities they serve, and provide one of the many transport links needed to help gro the economy.....

couldn't agree more
 

Class377/5

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Wrong. Point out to anybody in the North how much rail infrastructure London is getting per head of population compared to the North and Northeast of England and their attitude changes from docile through disbelief to anger.

WE don't want more than other parts of the UK, just parity.

The point I've made several times is the spending in London is always going to be more expensive as its at a point it requires major works. And London does dip into its pockets to fund these improvements. Those headline figures of London getting 30 times the rest of the country fall to something like 6-7 times when you take out the non governmental money, ie private and in Crossrail's case loans on future ridership.

And that recent report in rail where London is using 96% of its rail capacity compared to Manchester's 73%. That figure is based on amount of passengers vs seats on trains being provided today. So London is at a much more critical point in rail capacity issues.

For the north to have parity, it needs to drag in other investment such as private while also being allowed to raise taxes on developments benefit from infrastructure investment. So the north needs to change its approach as does the government.
 

northwichcat

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And that recent report in rail where London is using 96% of its rail capacity compared to Manchester's 73%. That figure is based on amount of passengers vs seats on trains being provided today. So London is at a much more critical point in rail capacity issues.

London's the only place which has trains with low density longitudinal seating with the idea being the total capacity of the train is higher because a standing passenger requires less space than a seated one. The new Metrolink trams in Manchester work on a similar principle but aren't counted as rail services.

Based on the DfT definition of overcrowding, a TPE service between Manchester and Leeds, which only stops at Huddersfield is overcrowded if 1 person can't find a seat. An all-stops LO service needs to have more a lot more passengers standing than seated before it's classed as overcrowded, so whoever compared number of seats to number of passengers didn't do their research properly. (It wasn't that long ago that one Rail journalist returned from holiday and wrote an article saying an article written by another journalist in his absence was obviously a very late April fool due to how stupid the idea was.)

The operator with the highest seat occupancy level was found to be TPE (despite the low density seating on LO 378s), which makes sense given many TPE services serve multiple major cities in the North of England (as well as two in Scotland) whereas most of the South East operators have very quiet services (compared to the number of carriages) going away from London in the morning and going towards London in the evening. Something that doesn't exist on flows like Manchester-Leeds which has busy services in both directions at the same time.

Ironically the services with the most empty seats out of Manchester are the off-peak Virgin services despite DfT arguing Manchester needed 3tph to London and the possibility of 4tph could be explored. (Even a number of peak services aren't that busy at Manchester but get filled up by the time you include the passengers at Stockport, Macclesfield, Wilmslow, Crewe and Stoke.)
 
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Xenophon PCDGS

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Ironically the services with the most empty seats out of Manchester are the off-peak Virgin services despite DfT arguing Manchester needed 3tph to London and the possibility of 4tph could be explored. (Even a number of peak services aren't that busy at Manchester but get filled up by the time you include the passengers at Stockport, Macclesfield, Wilmslow, Crewe and Stoke.)

Perhaps this fact is not known to those from the southern reaches of England.
 

Wolfie

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nobody cares, get over it.

i thought thats what you want? users to pay a premium for investment?

couldn't agree more

get over it!

Choice A take the 319s

Choice B keep your lovely Pacers

I'm at the point where I really don't care which you go for...
 
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Xenophon PCDGS

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I'm at the point where I really don't care which you go for...

Do you, hand on heart, consider that we are inferior beings in "Northernland", as the wording in some of your postings seems to display utter contempt for us. I note that the Northern Rail subsidy level is oft-quoted, but what type of rolling stock do you think we have to warrant this? Just imagine Crossrail running with certain examples of the rolling stock that is deemed suitable for us poor unfortunate beings, one in particular which you have named, but which have varying degrees of unpleasantness. How very kind of you to make the comparison between two elderly modes of traction.

May I be so bold as to remind you, lest you should forget, that "The Harrying of the North" only lasted for a period of years after the Norman Conquest. It is not an on-going event to be celebrated some 950 years after this.
 

bramling

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Do you, hand on heart, consider that we are inferior beings in "Northernland", as the wording in some of your postings seems to display utter contempt for us. I note that the Northern Rail subsidy level is oft-quoted, but what type of rolling stock do you think we have to warrant this? Just imagine Crossrail running with certain examples of the rolling stock that is deemed suitable for us poor unfortunate beings, one in particular which you have named, but which have varying degrees of unpleasantness. How very kind of you to make the comparison between two elderly modes of traction.

May I be so bold as to remind you, lest you should forget, that "The Harrying of the North" only lasted for a period of years after the Norman Conquest. It is not an on-going event to be celebrated some 950 years after this.

The whole argument over elderly rolling stock in northern England is tedious. As has been pointed out, these things go in cycles, back in the 1980s the regional services had massive investment in the Sprinter classes, whereas many routes in the London area still had slam-door trains, some of which at that time did not have any form of plan for replacement. This was not just the southern routes, but also the lines of LTS, Great Eastern and also Thames & Chiltern.

With the biggest issue being overcrowding rather than quality of rolling stock, I'd prefer more of almost any class of train if it meant a longer train and therefore less crowded journey - or in some cases the chance just to be able to board the train.

The constant arguing about age of rolling stock deflects from the more important issue which is the number of trains available. Hopefully there should be enough cascaded 1980s or 1990s EMUs available over the next few years to ensure by the end of the decade there *should* be no overhead electric routes suffering from overcrowding because of lack of trains, subject to some investment in either SDO or platform extensions at applicable locations. With sufficient electrification, hopefully many diesel routes could find themselves in the same position as well, although not if large numbers of Pacers are withdrawn.

From a passenger's point of view, I would be furious to find my train packed just because some people objected to retaining 1980s rolling stock. *Any* train is unpleasant when starting to reach 100% seat occupancy, let alone crush loaded. On the Birmingham to Rugeley service it's quite apparent off-peak that even non-railway-minded passengers tend to favour travelling in the 170 on the trains which are formed 170+153, but in the peaks I'm sure people are more-than glad of the 153 compared to the alternative of only a 2-car train.
 
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Bletchleyite

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The operator with the highest seat occupancy level was found to be TPE (despite the low density seating on LO 378s), which makes sense given many TPE services serve multiple major cities in the North of England (as well as two in Scotland) whereas most of the South East operators have very quiet services (compared to the number of carriages) going away from London in the morning and going towards London in the evening. Something that doesn't exist on flows like Manchester-Leeds which has busy services in both directions at the same time.

The other relevant point is that the South East's rail system is largely full, and trains longer than 12 cars are not really feasible without seriously slackening timetables. Yet TPE and Northern's overcrowding problems would be solved by simply ordering a large fleet of new DMUs (with SDO for some short platforms). And I don't believe that the carbon emissions issue cannot be solved, even if it would mean a less space-efficient layout or something more clever, e.g. battery hybrids.

Neil
 

AM9

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The other relevant point is that the South East's rail system is largely full, and trains longer than 12 cars are not really feasible without seriously slackening timetables. Yet TPE and Northern's overcrowding problems would be solved by simply ordering a large fleet of new DMUs (with SDO for some short platforms). And I don't believe that the carbon emissions issue cannot be solved, even if it would mean a less space-efficient layout or something more clever, e.g. battery hybrids.

Neil

What has that got to do with the subject of this thread, - '319 cascade to Northern'?
The 319s will be deployed when the wiring is completed in the North allowing the displaced DMUs to strengthen the remaining diesel lines. No need to waste capital on yet more diesel stock as the progressive electrification in CP6 will allow even more EMUs to be cascaded until eventually the oldest DMUs can be retired leaving the better sprinters and 170s to run on the lines that probably won't have a good enough case for electrification.
 

deltic08

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What has that got to do with the subject of this thread, - '319 cascade to Northern'?
The 319s will be deployed when the wiring is completed in the North allowing the displaced DMUs to strengthen the remaining diesel lines. No need to waste capital on yet more diesel stock as the progressive electrification in CP6 will allow even more EMUs to be cascaded until eventually the oldest DMUs can be retired leaving the better sprinters and 170s to run on the lines that probably won't have a good enough case for electrification.

I do agree with you but electrification installation is not fast enough to replace non compliant Pacers by 2020 as they are completely knackered due to over intensity of use, corrosion and still working 15 years beyond their design life now. Despite comments from Southerners to the contrary, growth in Leeds City Region has been 54% in the same timescale as average growth in the rest of the country has been 39% so we in Yorkshire are short of trains for the traffic on offer.

The 2004 franchise award was a no growth award. Growth since Northern was awarded the contract has been 67% in ten years. The problem is we have not had 67% more seats.

Network Rail has planned for 15% average growth for CP5 but has forecast25% growth for Leeds City Region. They are hoping that trans-Pennine electrification from Huddersfield to York will provide 8% more seats in 2018. Bonkers. There are more crowded lines in West Yorkshire than this one.
 

Starmill

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Whinging northerners won't get one penny more out of the south get over it!

Choice A take the 319s

Choice B keep your lovely Pacers

I'm at the point where I really don't care which you go for... in fact BoJo as PM just to screw you lot is looking more attractive by the second.....

Grow up, do, dear - and soon. For your own sake..
 
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