Northern rolling stock changes post electrification

[AM9]

Is the new OHLE actually going to run at 29kV inline with Europe or are they going to apply to same sensibilities and rewrite the maximum parameters like they did when the domestic power supply came in line with Europe and just leave it at 25kV?

I.e. - UK's 240vAC ±6%, it is now 230vAC +10%/-6%. Nothing has actually changed...

That was my point. The new rules mean that the voltage can rise, presumably as a way of reducing feed points and increasing capacity of the circuit. It can also rise when new compliant stock with more aggressive regen. capabilities runs on the lines. That would be an operational decision to ensure that old spec kit didn't take the hits.

 

[starrymarkb]

Is the new OHLE actually going to run at 29kV inline with Europe or are they going to apply to same sensibilities and rewrite the maximum parameters like they did when the domestic power supply came in line with Europe and just leave it at 25kV?

I.e. - UK's 240vAC ±6%, it is now 230vAC +10%/-6%. Nothing has actually changed...

Europe is 25kV/50Hz for new build high speed line in most places (Germany I think is the exception with their HSR being 15kV)

 

[455driver]

I think its to do with trains rather than the overheads which will still be at 25KV nominal.
When the trains regenerate they dump back into the overheads at a higher voltage, if there are a few trains regenerating in the same section with nothing taking power then it is feasable that the line voltage could increase to 29KV so all trains have to be able to withstand the higher voltage.

Of course this might be wrong but I am sure I read it somewhere.

 

[edwin_m]

I think its to do with trains rather than the overheads which will still be at 25KV nominal.
When the trains regenerate they dump back into the overheads at a higher voltage, if there are a few trains regenerating in the same section with nothing taking power then it is feasable that the line voltage could increase to 29KV so all trains have to be able to withstand the higher voltage.

Of course this might be wrong but I am sure I read it somewhere.

That's the principle of regeneration. Each train that regenerates has to monitor the line voltage and stop regenerating if it goes above a certain limit, which may happen if there aren't enough other trains to receive the regenerated power. This stops the voltage getting so high that it damages the infrastructure or other trains, but clearly the higher the maximum voltage the more regeneration can take place.

 

[455driver]

So I was nearly right!

Thanks for the info.

 

[edwin_m]

It could be a similar situation to Trowse Bridge in Norwich (overhead conductor rail) if it has to be live. But it probably will be a dead section.

I doubt it will be dead that near the station, as there is too much risk of a train being stranded.

Whether dead or not I would expect to see a parallel cable to feed between the two sides whether the bridge is open or closed. Otherwise Selby-Hull would become an isolated (literally) part of the electric network and would need two feeder stations to provide continuity during maintenance or if one feeder or its supply is loss. Selby-Hull would only need one feeder station otherwise, and a parallel feed is much cheaper than a feeder station.

AC feeder stations normally each feed a fixed area, but it is possible to change configuration of breakers so that if one feeder is lost its area is fed by one or more others.

 

[Class 170101]

I doubt it will be dead that near the station, as there is too much risk of a train being stranded.

Whether dead or not I would expect to see a parallel cable to feed between the two sides whether the bridge is open or closed.

At Norwich I believe the feeder station is one side of the bridge but feeds both sides with the swing bridge in the middle have its own separate feed direct from the feeder station. Therefore if the bridge is open both sides of the bridge are still live. Particularly important as Norwich Station and Crown Point Depot are the end of the line as far as electrification is concerned. They won't take kindly to having their power switched off every time the bridge is opned for river traffic.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

As we are now in October 2014, can someone equate the current progress of electrification of the Lancashire Triangle to the expected Class 319 unit release to Northern Rail and explain how the time factor for new Class 319 operated service patterns look at the present point of time.

 

[Class377/5]

As we are now in October 2014, can someone equate the current progress of electrification of the Lancashire Triangle to the expected Class 319 unit release to Northern Rail and explain how the time factor for new Class 319 operated service patterns look at the present point of time.

Northern are around three months ahead in the unit stakes so allowing three units go get a refresh at Wolverton and allow full driver training.

We still await news on just how big the delay is on the wiring. Word is there many be electric trains in January. But the section into Victoria is key focus as its required for TPE electric services early next year where as the rest of phase 2 is just capacity increase and not so time critical.

 

[Llama]

There was one wire (suspect earth wire) strung up between Salford Central and Manchester Victoria West Jn on the Up Salford Fast last Sunday.

 

[DJH1971]

Northern are around three months ahead in the unit stakes so allowing three units go get a refresh at Wolverton and allow full driver training.

We still await news on just how big the delay is on the wiring. Word is there many be electric trains in January. But the section into Victoria is key focus as its required for TPE electric services early next year where as the rest of phase 2 is just capacity increase and not so time critical.

And still no official word from NR regarding exactly how long the delay will be.

An announcement must surely be immiment?

 

[Class377/5]

And still no official word from NR regarding exactly how long the delay will be.

An announcement must surely be immiment?

It took 9 days for NR to confess to rail press that there was a delay as it has to go through DfT and TOCs. The delay may be down to the TOCs rewriting their diagrams which could take weeks depending on just how much of a work load then the DfT has to agree then statement can be prepared which then has to be signed off by everyone before it can go public.

Id expect the announcement at the end of the month or later.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

And still no official word from NR regarding exactly how long the delay will be.
An announcement must surely be immiment?

NR doesn't have to tell the public anything.
It does have to report progress/costs to ORR/DfT, and that is when anything strategic will be passed on.
They are probably scrabbling around for a good news story to wrap it up in (eg agreeing to deploy more 319s at Northern - but later than planned).
Bad weather always helps, but that has been in short supply lately.

I wonder how more wiring at Victoria squares with the reported "gantries in the wrong place" reports?
One would hope they are not compounding the problem...

 

[DJH1971]

NR doesn't have to tell the public anything.
It does have to report progress/costs to ORR/DfT, and that is when anything strategic will be passed on.
They are probably scrabbling around for a good news story to wrap it up in (eg agreeing to deploy more 319s at Northern - but later than planned).
Bad weather always helps, but that has been in short supply lately.

I wonder how more wiring at Victoria squares with the reported "gantries in the wrong place" reports?
One would hope they are not compounding the problem...

They will at least have to tell Northern, especially as they have posters inside their trains stating that electric services will start from December.

 

[northernrailer]

what 319 units have now transferred to Northern?

 

[Class377/5]

what 319 units have now transferred to Northern?

319361-365 have transferred with 380 on loan. 361/363/380 are being used for training at Allerton Depot with 362/364/365 all at Wolverton works getting a refresh.

 

[Techniquest]

Am I the only one counting down the days until we'll finally some buzzfire action on the western side of the Northern empire?

*Predicts a good few Cheshire Day Rangers and Saveaways, oh and GM Rail Rangers in 2015*

 

[Starmill]

Am I the only one counting down the days until we'll finally some buzzfire action on the western side of the Northern empire?

*Predicts a good few Cheshire Day Rangers and Saveaways, oh and GM Rail Rangers in 2015*

Watch out for the draconian evening restrictions on the latter.

 

[Class377/5]

Am I the only one counting down the days until we'll finally some buzzfire action on the western side of the Northern empire?

*Predicts a good few Cheshire Day Rangers and Saveaways, oh and GM Rail Rangers in 2015*

Just remember there's no start date for electrics on the western side currently other than early 2015.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Watch out for the draconian evening restrictions on the latter.

Stick to a Saturday to avoid that!

 

[Techniquest]

Am I the only one counting down the days until we'll finally some buzzfire action on the western side of the Northern empire?

*Predicts a good few Cheshire Day Rangers and Saveaways, oh and GM Rail Rangers in 2015*

Watch out for the draconian evening restrictions on the latter.

Yes I really need to look into the evening restrictions on the GM Rail Ranger and West Yorkshire Day Rover! The latter especially since I plan to do at least 2 trips to West Yorkshire next year!

Aye the only date I got for the 319s was "in the new year". Still, it'll also give me time to do some more DMUs on the Liverpool side, hopefully clearing the Allerton 156s next time I'm up there.

Should it be assume driver training on 319s is still going at a reasonable pace?

 

[Bantamzen]

Yes I really need to look into the evening restrictions on the GM Rail Ranger and West Yorkshire Day Rover! The latter especially since I plan to do at least 2 trips to West Yorkshire next year!

Details of the WY Day Rovers & restrictions can be found here:

http://www.wymetro.com/TicketsAndPasses/moresavings/WestYorkshireDayRover/

Hope that's useful!

 

[Techniquest]

Cheers, I'll have a look at that, got some time off work in 2 weeks time so it'll prove useful!

EDIT: Fork me, that is a bit draconian! Gonna be hard to find something to do for 88 minutes in the evening on a West Yorkshire Day Rover! Or a GM Rail Ranger!

 

[Class 170101]

Go for something to eat?

 

[Starmill]

You can remain onboard a train during that time.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Cheers, I'll have a look at that, got some time off work in 2 weeks time so it'll prove useful!

EDIT: Fork me, that is a bit draconian! Gonna be hard to find something to do for 88 minutes in the evening on a West Yorkshire Day Rover! Or a GM Rail Ranger!

You should feel lucky, some people have 240 minutes between 'off-peak trains' each evening.

 

[northwichcat]

Aye the only date I got for the 319s was "in the new year". Still, it'll also give me time to do some more DMUs on the Liverpool side, hopefully clearing the Allerton 156s next time I'm up there.

Network Rail have said the wires won't be ready in time for the December timetable change.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Network Rail have said the wires won't be ready in time for the December timetable change.

"Todmorden Chord Syndrome" (a name to now be in common usage to describe any rail-based fiasco) appears to be spreading in the Northern Rail empire, so it seems..

 

[DJH1971]

Network Rail have said the wires won't be ready in time for the December timetable change.

And we still don't know exactly when they will be ready yet either.

 

[deltic08]

Cheers, I'll have a look at that, got some time off work in 2 weeks time so it'll prove useful!

EDIT: Fork me, that is a bit draconian! Gonna be hard to find something to do for 88 minutes in the evening on a West Yorkshire Day Rover! Or a GM Rail Ranger!

Do what the rest of us are doing in protest. Boycott use of any Northern services, even off peak. I have not used their £10 Day Ranger tickets this Autumn with local newspaper tokens. The offer has been extended by a week. Is this a result of people not using Northern?