Northern rolling stock changes post electrification

[Viscount702]

Assuming as seems likely that Manchester Airport to Blackpool will go to Northern's successor and also assuming that Blackpool Electrification had been completed by December 2016 as planed and the Chord is built how many 319s would be required to run Northwest services from December 2016 in addition to the EMU they currently have.

 

[Class 170101]

Assuming as seems likely that Manchester Airport to Blackpool will go to Northern's successor and also assuming that Blackpool Electrification had been completed by December 2016 as planed and the Chord is built how many 319s would be required to run Northwest services from December 2016 in addition to the EMU they currently have.

I thought the Blackpool wiring had been delayed to May 2017?
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The 365 get displaced in 2017, far to late to help TPE.

There are still some 21x 319 (6x 377/2 released + 29x 387 cascade - 14x for Northern) that haven't yet been announced as having a home yet with all displaced from Thameslink by around August 2015. 'Just in time' to help TPE.

I thought the 377/2s were returning to Southern as they are only a sub-lease to assist FCC?
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The "solution" is most likely more 319s, but more than 14 are not needed until end-2016 anyway.
Another possibility is a bigger shift-round with Northern getting 30-40 319s and cascading their 323s/321s elsewhere.

I'm confused as why you cascade 321s and 323s elsewhere as that doesn't seem to solve the unit shortage.
However I would suggest perhaps some re-routing may happen. Hazel Grove services diverted to Liverpool via Chat Moss and becoming Electric with the current service between Manchester and Preston serving a different south of Manchester destination.

 

[Jonny]

The only service you could use them on without changing service pattens is the Chathill-Newcastle and return, but that is literally 2 journeys.

If you felt brave enough to take the political flak you could split TP North services to Newcastle at York, but I'm jot sure that's a realistic option!

I was thinking as additional services (i.e. as well as the current TPE services), rather than taking the place of TP North services.
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I thought the Blackpool wiring had been delayed to May 2017?
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I thought the 377/2s were returning to Southern as they are only a sub-lease to assist FCC?
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I'm confused as why you cascade 321s and 323s elsewhere as that doesn't seem to solve the unit shortage.
.

Also, a class 319 would be 400hp short compared to a class 321, unless it can be re-motored upwards.

 

[TEW]

I thought the 377/2s were returning to Southern as they are only a sub-lease to assist FCC?

FCC have taken on an additional 4 377/2s, with 2 more to transfer. That will take the total number of 377/2s with FCC up to 9. By the time they're freed up from Thameslink duties by the introduction of 700s it will all be under one franchise anyway. But in the long term they should move back to the current Southern area.

 

[Class377/5]

I thought the 377/2s were returning to Southern as they are only a sub-lease to assist FCC?

377207/211/212 are on loan to FCC on Thameslink duties from Southern until the TRSP stock (Class 700) are introduced. The sub-lease lasts the length of Southern's franchise as the units will pass into GTR sub-lease until GTR takes over Southern next year.

 

[childwallblues]

Some of the comments re the above messages need to be clarified:-

1. Liverpool South Parkway/Lime Street to Blackpool North - These services will remain 150/156 hauled until electrification of Preston to Blackpool North is completed. This is not due to any 319 shortage but most passengers on these services are travelling through to Blackpool from the Merseyside area.
2. Oxenholme to Windermere is under consideration for transfer to Northern as is Blackpool North to Manchester Airport.
3. Manchester Victoria to Stalybridge. When electrified in 2016 services will almost certainly be operated by extending services from Liverpool or Blackpool.

 

[northwichcat]

The extra units being referred to are probably units to operate services to/from Blackpool (including Manchester Airport-Blackpool) which Northern were expected to get anyway and doesn't change anything except that Northern aren't to get as much extra capacity as expected and TPE routes will likely get Sprinters from Northern which then don't have First Class and are likely to be 158s, which aren't being freed up so Northern will have to do an internal cascade and put 142s and 150s on to services currently operated by 158s.

 

[DJH1971]

Has anyone seen 319361 doing training runs recently up North?

 

[WatcherZero]

Maybe we are back to the will they/wont they 317's again. Issue before was the ROSCO attempting daylight robbery with the leasing charges and the Dft balking at picking up the tab (though to be fair their previous lessors did so too thats why they were available in the first place despite being newly refurbished). Perhaps this time they will consider the cost worth avoiding the negative PR though all the press chatter seems to be they are sill umming and arring about the lost capacity rescue plan.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The thing to remember is that the 90mph capabilities (of the 158s) are not, for the most part, able to be exploited by the current Northern franchise. As the presumed improvements in acceleration of electric stock as opposed to diesel takes hold, the advantages of 319s compared to 14X/15X may provide extra paths for 'local' services. Services that could be improved by 90mph stock will only happen once Northern(or their successors) have enough capacity within their fleet to ensure 90mph stock can definitely be provided. As long as any 'backup' is a pacer or 75mph sprinter there'll be no improvement in service provision..

 

[northwichcat]

As long as any 'backup' is a pacer or 75mph sprinter there'll be no improvement in service provision..

If you have a crush loading on a Pacer it struggles with acceleration a lot more than a Sprinter. Pacers are also affected more by 'seasonal difficulties' in leaf-fall season than 158s.

 

[childwallblues]

Has anyone seen 319361 doing training runs recently up North?

319361 has not yet left the depot since its arrival.

 

[fowler9]

319361 has not yet left the depot since its arrival.

Yeah, it is pretty much hidden around the back. You can see it for a short while as you train comes up off the old CLC route towards South Parkway.

 

[ianhr]

I suppose there is work to do to convert it from one man to 2 man operation with conductor guard operated door controls. Will they do this before it is sent out on crew training runs?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I suppose there is work to do to convert it from one man to 2 man operation with conductor guard operated door controls. Will they do this before it is sent out on crew training runs?

What time period is required to achieve this ?

 

[childwallblues]

I suppose there is work to do to convert it from one man to 2 man operation with conductor guard operated door controls. Will they do this before it is sent out on crew training runs?

When Allerton Depot was re-opened in 2012 the OHLE was not switched on as their was no requirement for it. Contractors are currently working on the OHLE and those tracks not refurbished in 2012 but will be required in the future.

 

[DJH1971]

I've also heard that another 319 is set move up North something in August.

 

[Class377/5]

I've also heard that another 319 is set move up North something in August.

The dates for the 319s go be released from Thameslink are as follows

319362 - off lease 01 August 2014
319363 - off lease 01 September 2014
319364 - off lease 01 October 2014
319365/366 - off lease 01 February 2015
319367/369 - off lease 01 March 2015
319371/374 - off lease 01 April 2015
319375/376 - off lease 01 July 2015
319377/378 - off lease 01 July 2015

 

[DJH1971]

The dates for the 319s go be released from Thameslink are as follows

319362 - off lease 01 August 2014
319363 - off lease 01 September 2014
319364 - off lease 01 October 2014
319365/366 - off lease 01 February 2015
319367/369 - off lease 01 March 2015
319371/374 - off lease 01 April 2015
319375/376 - off lease 01 July 2015
319377/378 - off lease 01 July 2015

Cheers

Looks like Northern could have 4 of them to play with come December!

 

[Whistler40145]

Let's hope we get some more 319s by December, then get the OHLE energised at Allerton Depot.

 

[Class377/5]

Cheers

Looks like Northern could have 4 of them to play with come December!

Remember those are the dates they to Porterbrook, who may wish to use one unit as a testbed hence why Northern is expecting only three units by December?

What is curious is the 364 its supposed to be released prior to the arrival of the first 387s meaning Thameslink may be short for a few weeks.

 

[87101]

Why has 319368 not been mentioned in the list of transfers to Northern. It's the only 319 I need for haulage, has something happened to it.

 

[Class377/5]

Why has 319368 not been mentioned in the list of transfers to Northern. It's the only 319 I need for haulage, has something happened to it.

Northern choose 14 units after inspecting the fleet and didn't choose every unit in a range hence the gaps.

 

[87101]

Thanks.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

What is curious is the 364 its supposed to be released prior to the arrival of the first 387s meaning Thameslink may be short for a few weeks.

Presume also that the 319s are going through a programme of classified overhauls/relivery adding to the shortage - unless of course the programme is temporarily halted?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Presume also that the 319s are going through a programme of classified overhauls/relivery adding to the shortage - unless of course the programme is temporarily halted?

How much actuality of fact lies behind your above presumption.

 

[westcoaster]

On a side note there has been northern drivers down at Bedford all week learning and driving 319's, so maybe 361 can get moving soon .

 

[Class377/5]

On a side note there has been northern drivers down at Bedford all week learning and driving 319's, so maybe 361 can get moving soon .

Might help when they finish getting the depot wiring sorted.

Presume also that the 319s are going through a programme of classified overhauls/relivery adding to the shortage - unless of course the programme is temporarily halted?

Its true.

The 6x 377/2 releases 3x 319s for Northern and 3x units for C4/6 exams (Wolverton/Hornsey). Hence my comment over having the 4th 319 prior to having something to replace it. Note the units receiving attention are not the units for Northern.

 

[westcoaster]

Might help when they finish getting the depot wiring sorted.



Its true.

The 6x 377/2 releases 3x 319s for Northern and 3x units for C4/6 exams (Wolverton/Hornsey). Hence my comment over having the 4th 319 prior to having something to replace it. Note the units receiving attention are not the units for Northern.

Nothing to stop the shunt engine moving it along to a good bit of juice or outbased for training.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

How much actuality of fact lies behind your above presumption.

Which is precisely the reason why I used the word presume so as to make it clear that my presumption was not actually fact.

I "presumed" because at least two units had been reliveried and I thought it was about time that many were due for classified overhaul.