Northern rolling stock changes post electrification

[northwichcat]

Anyone know a planned service date for these yet?

Northern are expected to have 2 x 319 diagrams running Manchester Airport-Liverpool semi-fasts in the December timetable change. At present the 319s haven't been properly cleared to run that service and no crews sign 319s. In theory they could enter passenger service sooner but it DfT haven't allowed for them entering service before December in the Direct Award you can be pretty sure they won't unless there's a high number of unit failures.

 

[Whistler40145]

Will there be any visits by 319361 from Allerton to Lime Street to train Drivers & Guards?


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[northwichcat]

From the Northern prospectus, p72:


There was a similar statement in the failed GW franchise spec.
It's a bit weaselly, like all DfT statements, but I read it as electric first, diesel second.
There's plenty of scope to vary the Northern service patterns while maintaining frequency and wider connectivity.
There's no reason why there could not be electric workings Alderley Edge-Preston, say, worked by either 323s or 319s.
The scope widens every year as NW/TP wiring expands.

Right so that's saying routes under the wires should be EMUs. What I was originally getting at is people such as tbtc are assuming widespread chopping and changing of routes so that diesels services are either truncated at the switch over point or the route is revised to go over a 100% electric route. The only place I've heard about that happening is on TPE routes where there's a valid business case to do so and even they are saying the option to run occasional through services from Manchester to places such as Middlesbrough, Barrow and Windermere exists.

A lack of EMUs isn't the only reason why so few EMUs run to Hazel Grove. Northern have to provide through services between Stockport and Salford/Bolton/Preston under the franchise commitment. They used to do so by running a Buxton-Blackpool service but punctuality problems were an issue. As there's no provision for turning a service from Preston around at Stockport, the only alternatives were to run it through to Chester (which wouldn't have solved the punctuality problems) or to terminate the train at an electrified destination. I imagine we could see similar occurrences in the future.

 

[WatcherZero]

Dft Press release announcing the Wigan-lostock electrification also said the airport services would go over to electric from NW, currently they run from Southport via Wallgate so thats an official chop and change.

 

[Llama]

Will there be any visits by 319361 from Allerton to Lime Street to train Drivers & Guards?

Training will be done initially at Allerton.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

A 321 set from BY went to Lime Street back in the days of NSE - as they are somewhat similar in profile etc - route clearance ought to be a doddle (says he who has written several vehicle change proposals in his job)

 

[Starmill]

You've posted many times about how much better you think it would be if the Mid-Cheshire line (and certain other local lines in to Manchester) were to converted and each time dismissed any feedback about why it can't be literally converted, like freight flows, diversionary routes etc.

Or more importantly, why this would create problems for passengers just as it has done in the previous three cases of it happening...

 

[edwin_m]

A 321 set from BY went to Lime Street back in the days of NSE - as they are somewhat similar in profile etc - route clearance ought to be a doddle (says he who has written several vehicle change proposals in his job)

I think North Western used 322s on their short-lived Manchester Airport to London services. 325s are also very similar to 319s tool.

I agree it shouldn't be a major issue to get clearance, and with all the work that's been done on the southern WCML the state of the infrastructure ought to be pretty well known by now. Probably mostly a question of how long it takes to go through the process and get the sign-offs.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

A 321 set from BY went to Lime Street back in the days of NSE - as they are somewhat similar in profile etc - route clearance ought to be a doddle (says he who has written several vehicle change proposals in his job)

I don't recall any use of London-based commuter EMUs being used in passenger service North of Birmingham on the WCML (other than the 322s as mentioned by Edwin_m), but following a derailment of Mk4s at Sandy (after which all IC225 sets were stopped for checks) 317s were pressed into service to Leeds, and the 321/9s made it to the Cross!

 

[Aictos]

325s are also very similar to 319s tool.

That's because they are although they have a Networker bodyshell and are capable of being loco hauled.

 

[edwin_m]

They actually have a 319 bodyshell with Networker-like ends.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

325s are also very similar to 319s tool.

Do 325s still have 3rd rail shoegear?
I could see complications if 319s retained shoes.
On the other hand 350/1s with shoes work happily over the routes from Euston to Liverpool.

 

[ExRes]

Do 325s still have 3rd rail shoegear?
I could see complications if 319s retained shoes.
On the other hand 350/1s with shoes work happily over the routes from Euston to Liverpool.

Haven't seen one for some time but I would be amazed if the shoegear is still in place on 325s as I wouldn't have thought they'd worked over DC for years, if it was still in place then it would call for regular maintenance for probably no reason

If it was still fitted they wouldn't have the same problems as 319s would have because the 325 gear was raised well above running line height when DC was not selected, although I know of at least one occasion when shoegear was ripped off by an unknown obstacle while running on AC, sadly I was driving it on DC and found out when the line light went missing without trace, at least I got to be rescued by an Rfd 47

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

How was the figure of 14 Class 319 units reached as being the optimum number ?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

How was the figure of 14 Class 319 units reached as being the optimum number ?

It's how many you need to work the new electric routes out of Liverpool until Dec 2016 (ie for the remaining duration of the franchise).
So just Liverpool-Wigan/Warrington BQ/Victoria/Airport.
There are still another 72 class 319s to find homes for later.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I don't recall any use of London-based commuter EMUs being used in passenger service North of Birmingham on the WCML (other than the 322s as mentioned by Edwin_m), but following a derailment of Mk4s at Sandy (after which all IC225 sets were stopped for checks) 317s were pressed into service to Leeds, and the 321/9s made it to the Cross!

The rare visit of a 321 to Lime Street was ECS in both directions from BY - it brought back some railway equipment. In those halcyon days you could do it on the strength of a phone call or 2 , - a good day out for all , and it saved hiring a 3 ton lorry.

321's used to work some FO specials / additionals to Leeds - there were surplus units for a shortwhile before Anglia cut over to full use of them , so they were pressed into usefull service rather than leave them in Cambridge Carriage sidings.

 

[Class 170101]

There are still another 72 class 319s to find homes for later.

Very easy

 

[Jonny]

There are still another 72 class 319s to find homes for later.

ECML North of York local services?

 

[Y961 XBU]

Found this photo online: https://www.flickr.com/photos/britishrail1980sand1990s/14278164840

 

[8J]

If you look at the tail light on the above picture, you will notice only the driver's side light is illuminated. Wonder how they done that or do you think the off side one is broken?

 

[edwin_m]

Presume one light has failed, especially as there is a portable one hung on the bracket! I belive they're still allowed to run with one out, but it sounds like a wise precaution in case the other one goes too.

 

[westcoaster]

If you look at the tail light on the above picture, you will notice only the driver's side light is illuminated. Wonder how they done that or do you think the off side one is broken?

the unit is aux'd of so only one shows, power is supplied by the batteries.

 

[Class 170101]

I am surprised either one is on given the train isn't using the OLE. I would expect them both to be off with the Bardic in effect being the tail lamp.

 

[westcoaster]

If you look at the tail light on the above picture, you will notice only the driver's side light is illuminated. Wonder how they done that or do you think the off side one is broken?

the unit is aux'd of so only one shows, power is supplied by the batteries.

not sure why it posted again on a 319 the tail light were modified a few years back. Basically if you aux the unit off with tail lights on, the drivers side stays on and the other off. It saves using portable tail lamps during possesions and when the power is off.

 

[Nymanic]

Found this photo online: https://www.flickr.com/photos/britishrail1980sand1990s/14278164840

Already relieved of its shoegear there, as was expected.

There's also a few youtube videos up, primarily from around LSP and Edge Hill.

If you zoom in on that shot, you can quite clearly see the "Magical Mystery Tour" moniker crudely applied to the cab end. Found that quite hilarious, I did.

 

[Class377/5]

It's how many you need to work the new electric routes out of Liverpool until Dec 2016 (ie for the remaining duration of the franchise).
So just Liverpool-Wigan/Warrington BQ/Victoria/Airport.
There are still another 72 class 319s to find homes for later.

Curious by July 2015, 35x 319s are going to be released but only 14 are accounted for. Other 21 for FGW?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Curious by July 2015, 35x 319s are going to be released but only 14 are accounted for. Other 21 for FGW?

I imagine DfT were only prepared to fund the extra (unmodified) stock up to the end of the franchise.
Everything else is down to the bidders for the franchises, maybe tied up with upgrade plans.
There has to be some risk backed off to the ROSCOs.
The ones for FGW are probably waiting for DfT to make its mind up about a 5-year franchise.

 

[northwichcat]

It's how many you need to work the new electric routes out of Liverpool until Dec 2016 (ie for the remaining duration of the franchise).
So just Liverpool-Wigan/Warrington BQ/Victoria/Airport.
There are still another 72 class 319s to find homes for later.

Think you mean Feb 2016 when the current franchise ends. May 2016 should see Liverpool-Blackpool services operated by electric traction.
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Curious by July 2015, 35x 319s are going to be released but only 14 are accounted for. Other 21 for FGW?

If the next Northern franchise is awarded in late 2015 and starts in Feb 2016, would it allow the option of the winning bidder agreeing a deal with Porterbrook for refurbished trains and the refurbishment starting ahead of the franchise start date?

When will Thames Valley be ready to start taking EMUs?

 

[JamesRowden]

When will Thames Valley be ready to start taking EMUs?

Network Rail states:

We’re electrifying the railway between London and Bristol, including Newbury and Oxford, by 2016 and to Cardiff by 2017.

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/great-western-electrification/

 

[northwichcat]

Network Rail states:
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/great-western-electrification/

So I imagine that means EMUs will be introduced no earlier than the May 2016 timetable change.
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Drop a bomb on Ashton? I dont understand why anyone would say that?

There's no landfill space left in Greater Manchester so the only way to create some would be to destroy an area. I suppose it wouldn't need a bomb, they could do like the Airport did with Styal when building Runway 2 when they dismantled any listed buildings and wildlife habitats and rehoused them elsewhere and then bulldozed everything else in the way.

Or more importantly, why this would create problems for passengers just as it has done in the previous three cases of it happening...

Yes that's the obvious reason which perhaps does need stressing.