Northern rolling stock changes post electrification

[b0b]

Even if 319s were cleared North of Rugby, would there not also be the lack of drivers with necessary route knowledge?

does the 325 clearances not apply to 319s too? or are they not cleared either

 

[ExRes]

I'd certainly hope 325s were cleared north of Rugby as they've been using the WCML to Scotland since their introduction in the late 90s, but all traction requires its own set of clearances so I doubt 319s would be able to run at this time

 

[DJL]

This might be a silly question but if the unit is not cleared wouldn't that prevent it from being dragged as well?

I guess there are many reasons why a unit might not be cleared for operational use that don't apply to drags (lack of 3rd rail shoe gear for example) but imagine the clearances still need to be checked!

Are there multiple levels of "clearance"?

 

[swt_passenger]

This might be a silly question but if the unit is not cleared wouldn't that prevent it from being dragged as well?

I guess there are many reasons why a unit might not be cleared for operational use that don't apply to drags (lack of 3rd rail shoe gear for example) but imagine the clearances still need to be checked!

Are there multiple levels of "clearance"?

Route 'clearance' isn't just about the physical stuff, (i.e. gauging) but also about electrical mutual interference between train borne and trackside equipment (and vice versa).

Clearance is really being used here in its secondary meaning of 'approval', IYSWIM...

 

[ExRes]

This might be a silly question but if the unit is not cleared wouldn't that prevent it from being dragged as well?

I guess there are many reasons why a unit might not be cleared for operational use that don't apply to drags (lack of 3rd rail shoe gear for example) but imagine the clearances still need to be checked!

Are there multiple levels of "clearance"?

When I took the first 325 to Chart Leacon to have its shoe fuses fitted prior to testing for DC use, using a 47 to haul the set, I had paperwork giving me speed restrictions for passing through stations, some were normal line speed while others were restricted to 15mph, other than that all speeds were as normal

It was amusing to look back along the train to see that the 325 was actually much farther away from those platforms than the 47 was

 

[Wolfie]

Then why mention it on this thread? The North is not interested in the Mayor of London or his silly 378 trains. Tell him your dissatisfaction, not us.

In the same charming spirit:

I like our NEW 378 trains. I don't give a monkeys about the North and its mobile hen coops (ie Pacers) except when they expect ME to pay for new trains while getting a 40p+ a mile subsidy!

Take your 319s and shut up!

 

[northwichcat]

In the same charming spirit:

I like our NEW 378 trains. I don't give a monkeys about the North and its mobile hen coops (ie Pacers) except when they expect ME to pay for new trains while getting a 40p+ a mile subsidy!

Take your 319s and shut up!

Northern are not the most subsided franchise - Scotrail and ATW are the two most subsided franchises but Scotrail, ATW, Merseyrail and LO don't appear on the DfT list of subsides because the franchises are not directly let by the DfT. How many new trains have Scotrail received?

LM, EMT and Southeastern are also heavily subsided franchises.

If you think the most profitable franchises should get the new rolling stock then SWT should be getting the new EMUs, not getting cascades from Southern with Southern getting new trains.

 

[Emyr]

Do the Northern Hub plans make any mention of ATO or other technologies that would increase capacity between Salford Crescent and Stockport?

Might give us an excuse for some Class 700 stock

 

[Class377/5]

does the 325 clearances not apply to 319s too? or are they not cleared either

Doubtful as its reported that NR is requiring route clearing for the 350/4 and /3 as different trains.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Doubtful as its reported that NR is requiring route clearing for the 350/4 and /3 as different trains.

Well they will have different vinyls.
Also there was that reported problem about the TPWS interface on LM's /3s (voice commands etc).
I have no idea if that is fitted to the /4s as well.

 

[Chris125]

Do the Northern Hub plans make any mention of ATO or other technologies that would increase capacity between Salford Crescent and Stockport?

Might give us an excuse for some Class 700 stock

Resignalling of the 'Castlefield Corridor', along with extra platforms at Piccadily and the remodelling of those at Oxford Road will provide the extra capacity required by the Northern Hub - with so many different types of train using that section of line automation would be impractical.

Chris

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I don't give a monkeys about the North and its mobile hen coops (ie Pacers) except when they expect ME to pay for new trains while getting a 40p+ a mile subsidy!

Well then, that's a certain somebody's colours well and truly nailed to the mast....

 

[Clip]

Then why mention it on this thread? The North is not interested in the Mayor of London or his silly 378 trains. Tell him your dissatisfaction, not us.

I was using it for context because you seem to think that the north is a special case who simply must have 2+2 seating in their trains even though to do so will reduce seating capacity and cost a fortune to do so and that us in the SE still have plenty of 3+2 trains and also the awful 378s so you should count your blessing as they are terrible.

now you can remove that ever growing chip from your shoulder

 

[Wolfie]

Well then, that's a certain somebody's colours well and truly nailed to the mast....

I probably should have put a smiley BUT the sentence before was intended to make it clear that it was deliberately as provocative as the post I was responding to.....

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I probably should have put a smiley BUT the sentence before was intended to make it clear that it was deliberately as provocative as the post I was responding to.....

Thought for the day
Blessed are those who are offended in postings, but are of a higher state of understanding of the petty foibles of others and do not rise to the insult.

If only I too could meet such heightened sensibilities at times...

 

[driver9000]

Well they will have different vinyls.
Also there was that reported problem about the TPWS interface on LM's /3s (voice commands etc).
I have no idea if that is fitted to the /4s as well.

The 350/4 does have TPWS2. It's not a voice command, it simply verbalises which system has tripped the train (ie trainstop or overspeed) and has an extra button to enable brake release. Not sure what issues London Midland have been having with TPWS2 as TPE hasn't had issues with it. I haven't heard of the 350/3 and 350/4 requiring separate clearances to run over the same lines.

 

[Domh245]

*looking at the 319s moving up north and ignoring the huge off-topic debate* Has 361 been out and about today, or has it been sat in the depot getting ready for the move?

 

[Class377/5]

*looking at the 319s moving up north and ignoring the huge off-topic debate* Has 361 been out and about today, or has it been sat in the depot getting ready for the move?

319361 has been in Cauldwell depot since the 16th.

For the record it worked;

03+56 Bedford CS - Selhurst
05:36 2V94 Selhurst - Luton
07:30 2V19 Luton - Sutton
09:13 2V20 Sutton - Kentish Town
10+11 5J20 Kentish Town - Cricklewood Depot
15+48 5A25 Cricklewood Depot - Kentish Town
16:10 2L25 Kentish Town - Orpington
17:34 1G75 Orpington - Bedford
19+28 Bedford - Cauldwell depot

 

[deltic08]

I was using it for context because you seem to think that the north is a special case who simply must have 2+2 seating in their trains even though to do so will reduce seating capacity and cost a fortune to do so and that us in the SE still have plenty of 3+2 trains and also the awful 378s so you should count your blessing as they are terrible.

now you can remove that ever growing chip from your shoulder

Fighting an injustice is NOT having a chip on my shoulder. Where is the justice of £2700 per head spend in London compared to £300 per head in Yorkshire on rail infrastructure? That makes a mockery of your argument about fare subsidy being greater in the North.

A desire for 2+2 seating is wrong? If 319s are to be refreshed and retrimmed then all seats are removed anyway, so costs no more to put them back as 2+2. In fact it costs less not trimming the 5th seat and seat back in each row. I suggest you get your facts right before posting inaccuracies.

 

[Class377/5]

Fighting an injustice is NOT having a chip on my shoulder. Where is the justice of £2700 per head spend in London compared to £300 per head in Yorkshire on rail infrastructure? That makes a mockery of your argument about fare subsidy being greater in the North.

A desire for 2+2 seating is wrong? If 319s are to be refreshed and retrimmed then all seats are removed anyway, so costs no more to put them back as 2+2. In fact it costs less not trimming the 5th seat and seat back in each row. I suggest you get your facts right before posting inaccuracies.

Injustice? You do realise that your so badly done by franchise is requiring a £1m a day to keep it going? Prehaps this is the situation you should be addressing rather than complaining that other franchises get more, especially when the stock your complaining about is coming from a franchise that gives more to Government that it recieves.

For reference the 22 month (roughly 660 days) contract recieves £633m in subsidy.

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/...ontroversial-633m-follow-train-franchise.html

A Department for transport spokesman said: ‘The agreement with Northern Rail Ltd will see the franchise receive a subsidy of £632.7million over the 22 months of the contract.

I'm fed up of this attitude that Northern is so hard done when no-one has actually suggested a single actual idea to how to deal with the issues. If your going to complain then at least have the guts to suggest how you make Northern pay its way, otherwise your views are just rants which is fast becoming boring.

 

[Moonshot]

Injustice? You do realise that your so badly done by franchise is requiring a £1m a day to keep it going? Prehaps this is the situation you should be addressing rather than complaining that other franchises get more, especially when the stock your complaining about is coming from a franchise that gives more to Government that it recieves.

For reference the 22 month (roughly 660 days) contract recieves £633m in subsidy.

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/...ontroversial-633m-follow-train-franchise.html



I'm fed up of this attitude that Northern is so hard done when no-one has actually suggested a single actual idea to how to deal with the issues. If your going to complain then at least have the guts to suggest how you make Northern pay its way, otherwise your views are just rants which is fast becoming boring.

I ll actually have a go at this from a rational perspective from up here in the North.

1 - Remove the regulation on fares which keeps some of the fare basket artificially lower tham market forces would.

2 - Remove any infrastructure such as small suburban stations which are unlikely to add any value to the rail network if they had money spent on them.

3 - Transfer to light rail any lines currently heavy rail which are suitable ( Metrolink has been fantastically successful up here ).

So theres my ideas without any rants or similar whatsoever.

 

[AM9]

Fighting an injustice is NOT having a chip on my shoulder. Where is the justice of £2700 per head spend in London compared to £300 per head in Yorkshire on rail infrastructure? That makes a mockery of your argument about fare subsidy being greater in the North.

A desire for 2+2 seating is wrong? If 319s are to be refreshed and retrimmed then all seats are removed anyway, so costs no more to put them back as 2+2. In fact it costs less not trimming the 5th seat and seat back in each row. I suggest you get your facts right before posting inaccuracies.

This myth has been debunked on both this thread and the 'not fair, not fair to us northerners' one on the discussion forum. It was generated by a right wing think tank using data over a carefully selected timeframe. It's only intention was to produce a few 'wind-up' headlines for the media.

319s are fit for multi-purpose services such as high density suburban, regional sprints and inter working with Meridian expresses. Apart from any needed changes like DC kit removal, DOO disabling/changes and accessability works, they will probably be bedded in as they are until the franchise comes up for renewal. If they are good enough for the Thameslink routes, then they can be just as effective on the lines in the north.

 

[westcoaster]

319361 has been in Cauldwell depot since the 16th.

For the record it worked;

03+56 Bedford CS - Selhurst
05:36 2V94 Selhurst - Luton
07:30 2V19 Luton - Sutton
09:13 2V20 Sutton - Kentish Town
10+11 5J20 Kentish Town - Cricklewood Depot
15+48 5A25 Cricklewood Depot - Kentish Town
16:10 2L25 Kentish Town - Orpington
17:34 1G75 Orpington - Bedford
19+28 Bedford - Cauldwell depot

thanks currently on 5 shed at BF1. Think it will run from cauldwell not bedford cs. Light engine is booked into cauldwell as well.

 

[user15681]

Same workings as it's last day back when it was meant to move in May, I was on 1G75 then! Coincidence or done specifically to get it in a certain position at Cauldwell for the move?

 

[lookingforit35]

For what it's worth I will echo some of the earlier comments. I use mainly 375s and 465s for my daily commute, with the occasional 319 home dependant on where my work ends up taking me in London.

I will quite miss the 319s when they have departed as they are good reliable stock. OK, they aren't air conditioned but in reality the standard of aircon on SE is best described as "patchy" and of course there's no option to open any windows on 375s, so a stuffy humid environment is often the end result.

The 319s are comfortable with only a minor gripe about the slightly low seat height. I certainly wouldn't be complaining about receiving them. I have no desire to enter into any north/south debate other than a quick reminder that SE's 465 stock can be pretty dismal at the best of times - the London streets (or in this case rails) aren't all paved with gold!!

 

[507 001]

well I for one am looking forward to the 319s coming oop north.

I really couldn't care less how old the rolling stock is, I care about how GOOD it is and I know that the 319s are petty decent units and with the possible exception of them being 4 carr, are perfectly suited to the role they will be taking on.

I've said it time and again, I would have much rather had a fleet of 4CEPS, VEPS and CIGS in the state they were in during their final years than a fleet of brand new pacers.

 

[deltic08]

This myth has been debunked on both this thread and the 'not fair, not fair to us northerners' one on the discussion forum. It was generated by a right wing think tank using data over a carefully selected timeframe. It's only intention was to produce a few 'wind-up' headlines for the media.

319s are fit for multi-purpose services such as high density suburban, regional sprints and inter working with Meridian expresses. Apart from any needed changes like DC kit removal, DOO disabling/changes and accessability works, they will probably be bedded in as they are until the franchise comes up for renewal. If they are good enough for the Thameslink routes, then they can be just as effective on the lines in the north.

They are still 25 years old before we get them and have been run into the ground.

 

[Class377/5]

They are still 25 years old before we get them and have been run into the ground.

And there's your chip. The former doesn't matter and most stock in the SE is worked hard. In fact many of the 'Northern' crowd have said the same with Northern and it stock so a rather mute point indeed. Of course you've ignored questions asked of you so I assume you just wish to complain and don't have any sensible suggestions.

I ll actually have a go at this from a rational perspective from up here in the North.

1 - Remove the regulation on fares which keeps some of the fare basket artificially lower tham market forces would.

2 - Remove any infrastructure such as small suburban stations which are unlikely to add any value to the rail network if they had money spent on them.

3 - Transfer to light rail any lines currently heavy rail which are suitable ( Metrolink has been fantastically successful up here ).

So theres my ideas without any rants or similar whatsoever.

Interesting bunch of ideas, do you have any examples of where your ideas could be applied?

 

[47802]

Injustice? You do realise that your so badly done by franchise is requiring a £1m a day to keep it going? Prehaps this is the situation you should be addressing rather than complaining that other franchises get more, especially when the stock your complaining about is coming from a franchise that gives more to Government that it recieves.

For reference the 22 month (roughly 660 days) contract recieves £633m in subsidy.

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/...ontroversial-633m-follow-train-franchise.html



I'm fed up of this attitude that Northern is so hard done when no-one has actually suggested a single actual idea to how to deal with the issues. If your going to complain then at least have the guts to suggest how you make Northern pay its way, otherwise your views are just rants which is fast becoming boring.

So what I imagine there are plenty of routes in EMT and FGW area which require just as big a subsidy as Northern, but they have been lumped together with more profitable routes in recent years presumably reducing the overall premium that these franchise generate, but also hiding the poorer performers, so you could split northern and add it to the east and west coast franchises reducing the premium they generate or get a higher premium from these and subsidise northern. Looks like swings and roundabouts to me except its a good excuse for people like you to jump on the northern subsidy if its separate. I wonder what the subsidy is on the Ashford Hasting route is compared with many northern routes?

Of course you couldd look at things like efficiency saving eg. DOO not popular with the workforce and a whole other thread, and cutting services and routes. I do think there may be a limited number of routes on Northern where the cost of providing the service costs far more than the benefit it gives, but closing routes these days is politically difficult.

As far as the 319s go I don't have a problem with them although I do have a problem with them not getting a major revamp as originally indicated, it should be a required commitment in the next franchise, as whether they are 2+2 or 3+2 in the long term I'm not that bothered although if the latest southern 377's are anything to go by it would suggest 2+2 is more favoured for short to medium distance work.

 

[DJH1971]

Well, I wonder if 319361 actually made the journey up north this morning.

Just waiting for news now.